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Vi-Zer0Skill
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09-07-2010, 10:44 PM
Post subject: KK 100nl mixing it up
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#1 (permalink)
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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*this hand was in euros
UTG is 23norab, a heavy grinder of both cash/tourneys. no significant history. SB is the table fish, which is partially why I decided to flat. The other reason was I'd been at the table for a couple orbits and hadn't 3bet yet.
I considered raising the flop, but decided that there were very few bad turns (9, A) and I could continue to disguise the strength of my hand as well as possibly keep the fish in the pot by just calling. Do the merits of raising outweigh the value of keeping SB in and underepping my hand?
I think the turn raise is possibly bad, though I did it because I didn't think I could value shove the river if UTG fired again -- is this incorrect? I thought because my value range would be so thin in this spot (99, KK+, 4x) that he wouldn't be able to fold TT-QQ to a raise, but in retrospect he probably doesn't have any reason to believe I'd be capable of bluffing in this spot.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
saw flop | saw showdown
Button ($100)
SB ($265.25)
BB ($108.05)
UTG ($164.10)
Hero (MP) ($100)
Preflop: Hero is MP with K , K
UTG bets $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.50, 1 fold
Flop: ($10) 4, 9 , 4 (3 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6, 1 fold
Turn: ($22) 4 (2 players)
UTG bets $14, Hero raises to $37
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,217
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Your hand is huge here on the turn, although it also looks fairly huge, but then you seem to be repping so few value combos that I'd expect no folds from TT-QQ, looks fine as played. I think keeping the fish in with shitty pairs, 9x etc is good on the flop when we have position and can fire away on turns when checked to.
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gametight
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 494
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Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.
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pocketfours
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
Posts: 2,166
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Yeah def call turn.
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Toadstool
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 442
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Yeah def call here, by raising you've got the bottom of your value range in his eyes. Call and let him keep thinking you've got a med pp. When you don't raise the flop here, you can't really raise the turn for value, it's not like you got there with air, and with no history he probably doesn't give a random reg credit for being able to turn 66 or w/e into a bluff.
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JL
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
I considered raising the flop, but decided that there were very few bad turns (9, A) and I could continue to disguise the strength of my hand as well as possibly keep the fish in the pot by just calling. Do the merits of raising outweigh the value of keeping SB in and underepping my hand?
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I dislike raising the flop or the turn here.
The turn raise looks so strong. If i was villain, I would not be happy if I had something like TT.
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Mr. Diamond
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: verified poker sponsor
Posts: 237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gametight
Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.
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this
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Da GOAT
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dublin
Posts: 4,308
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id prob 3bet still vs an utg open in MP. Esp. if he is very fishy he may cold call you.
As played, i agree with calling turn. I think opp is gonna value own himself since Id put him on a decent hand (he bet into 2 ppl on flop with a fish having a wide range).
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Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gametight
Just looks like it folds out everything you already beat imo.... let him bluff/ value own himself.
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Yah +1
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Carroters
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Da Amberlamps
Posts: 2,217
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I don't see how raising this turn possibly folds out "all worse hands" you think he's folding TT-QQ here often given how strange this looks? A lot of regs wont even put AA KK in your range here. I think we can get called by this sorta range here fairly often when we raise turn and jam river:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 37.382% 35.66% 01.72% 2730 132.00 { 99+, A4s }
Hand 1: 62.618% 60.89% 01.72% 4662 132.00 { KK }
But then meh, he may fold the lower part of this sometimes leaving it closer to neutral EVeees, where as he'll defo bet most 9x, TT-QQ on the river again if we flat so I can dig flatting and calling down vs his river barreling range, leaving in any bruffs he might have.
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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I'm convinced the turn raise turned a profitable spot into a marginal one. so is there a general consensus that it's best to be calling down flop+turn+river rather than raise flop because SB is in the hand and the board texture is so favorable?
btw UTG 3bet jammed and I called. he had pocket nines
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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Vi-Zer0Skill
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Reagan's Kid
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,742
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would you flat AA on the turn as well? can i have a value raising range on the turn in a vacuum?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Carroters
Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
would you flat AA on the turn as well? can i have a value raising range on the turn in a vacuum?
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I guess I kind of feel like any hand I would want to raise on the turn on this type of board, I probably would have just raised the flop.
Once I call the flop, I'd be trying to balance with the rest of my weaker call down range, by calling this down.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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Alexos
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Montreal
Posts: 2,766
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call because u get it in vs his value range on any river anyways + balance + letting him bluff and making his higher FH on river and getting owned.
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Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //
Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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call bc its nearly same ev as raising and its better for ur range by a lot
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
call bc its nearly same ev as raising and its better for ur range by a lot
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This is what I was trying to say, but sauce says it better!
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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lancelott_
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 151
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yea he`s goona vbet a lot of stuff on the river, that will call a raise on the turn anyways, and than you can jam the river depending on his betsizing. Plus it balances/strenghtens your turn calling range a lot (thats only important if you`re gonna play vs him more hands in the future)
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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We shove river on any card not T, J or Q, right?
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