Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,291,000 Posts!
Poker ForumShort-Handed NL Hold'em

ISF Theorem

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 75 of 91
  1. #1

    Default ISF Theorem

    Amazingly, when I was hi yesterday from some horrible weed, I came to a breakthrough thought in my poker game. I called sauce up and explained to him what I just realized and he had no idea why it was so amazing. It took me awhile but then I realized that the reason he didnt find it amazing is because it was so simple, and the fact that any player would overlook it is ridiculous. But many players do.

    I'll explain.

    Given Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (lets just say in a HU match since its easiest), to an outside observer the holding of each player is based
    on probability. I.E. player 1 can have AK, a flush, AQ, player 2 can have 44, 55 etc.

    Sound familiar? Yeah it does because all im talking about is that each opponent has a range.

    What many players do however is never look at the hand from this perspective. In your eyes there is only one player with a range, when that is in fact far from the case.

    All this is is 2nd level thinking. We're thinking of not only what our opponent have, but what we could have and how that will effect the hand.

    Now at this point you may say "Yeah well I understand this concept so what?" Well here's the application.

    During any given moment in a hand, each player has a range. From an outside observers perspective, he can guess during any point of the hand which player is more likely to win, and a good hand reader would be able to do this 100% of the time. Therefore, the player who is most likely going to win the hand could be said in other words to be beating the range of his opponent (this actually isn't the exact same thing, but the point is is that a given range can be ahead or behind another range).

    So let me give an example.

    You are against a 17/12 who never raises low pp's or sc's preflop. You call his MP raise on the BU. Don't worry about your cards they don't matter.

    Flop comes 765.

    Now if we do a range of opponents "nut" (by nut i mean hands he will stack off with), we can think of 4 hands that are all only sometimes stacking off, AA/JJ (88 and 99 will likely find a fold somewhere else in the hand as long as we consider 88/99 non blanks)
    Our opponent lets say raises 10% of his hands from MP, this means that he is only taking 1 or 2% of his hands all the way. 80% of the time he will muck his hand on the flop if we raise, and probably 10% of the time he will end up folding on later streets.
    Our range on the other hand hit very hard. 89,76,75,65,77,66,55,43 (and pairs with straight draws that are marginal dogs to overpairs)

    Since our range includes much more nut hands than our opponent, we actually have a much better probability of winning the hand than our opponent given only the action preflop, aka our range is ahead of our opponent.

    Which brings me to my theorem.

    ISF Theorem:
    If your range is ahead of your opponents range, you should bluff more often. If your range is behind your opponents range, you should play tighter.


    It's so stupidly simple, so stupidly simple it makes me wonder why a good player couldn't just explain it. But then I realized a few reasons.
    1. It's so obvious they don't understand why it needs to be explained.
    2. It's hard to put this simply
    3. If they told people this everyone would become a much better player and they can't have everyone be that good.
    4. I'm wrong

    Earlier in the hand ISF theorem is pretty vague. Preflop it makes sense why we call hands like 45s in position because we're behind our opponents range and we should be playing more passive when we are. We threebet weak hands from CO raises because our own range is so far ahead of our opponents.

    On the flop its a little less vague. We raise preflop and a tagg calls us on the BU.
    Flop comes KJ6. Here our range is way ahead of our opponents...
    If you didn't understand the first time here's the explanation again, We will stack off everytime with KK,JJ,66,KJ. Sometimes with AA/AK/KQ. Our opponent will stack off with 66 and KJ (except he wont show up with KJ a lot). Because our range is completey crushing our opponent, we should play the hand a lot more aggressively! This is why it can be really awesome to be the PFR!
    On the turn since our ranges become a lot tighter, play becomes a lot easier. Hand ranges at this point normally consist of only a handful of hands, making it much easier to play more aggressively if we are ahead of their range, and easy to play more passive if we are behind it.
    The turn, and especially the river, are times where some super sick bluffs can take place because of how tight the ranges become.
    Lets say the board is KJ658 and a flush just completed on the river. We flat called two streets, which is easy to read as a FD. We actually have a pair of jacks. Our opponent has a huge range, including a flush, which he'll have maybe 15% of the time. Since we show up with a flush so much more than our opponent, which is the nuts, we can play the hand much more aggressively.
    .......
    There are of course some flaws in the theorem.

    1. Our range is entirely dependent on what our opponent thinks our range is. Therefore a fish is not putting us on much of a range and all we can really do is think on the 1st level. We have a hand that is beating his range then we bet/call, if we dont then we fold/(call if we are drawing or since we are ahead of some and pot odds dictate).

    2. Hands our opponents will stack off with becomes liquid. I actually will go on record in saying that these adjustments will come very slowly, but likely not at all at 600nl-. But as we become more aggressive or more passive our opponents nut hands (which i have defined for the sake of simplicity to be hands they will stack off with) will become wider or smaller. Yet, this doesn't break the theorem, rather it just makes us think harder about our opponents range.

    3. Nut hands isn't all we should be taking into consideration. But "Strength of range" is extremely hard to define.
    Let's say we put all hands on two opposing ladders. Each hands beats all hands below it, The higher up the better the hand. Is it the total "height" of all the hands on your ladder combined the determines strength (probably not) or is it also effected by outliers and clumps? Or do the variables completely change in different situations?
    Oversimplifying it, we are playing holdem with no flop, best two cards win period, with one betting round. There are antes.

    We are only dealt KK or QQ and we know our opponent is only dealt AA or 72o. The player with AA seems to have a huge advantage.

    If we are first to act we can never value bet because we allow him to play his hand perfectly. He will never call and only raise or fold. He will always raise AA, and maybe even sometimes 72o. To what frequency we can only guess. Even if we check he is again left with the upper hand because he alone will know the frequency he will bluff.

    If we are second to act we will never raise his bets, but rather be forced to call sometimes, most likely an inaccurate amount.

    The guy with AA or 72o knows whether he is ahead or behind at all times, and therefore his decisons are much much easier. I don't see why this would be any different with a flop turn and river, but I'm not positive.

    Okay thats it for now questions can go here. Feel free to shoot me down.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  2. #2

    Default Re: ISF Theorem

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
    when I was hi yesterday from some horrible weed
    lol

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
    Given Heisenburg's uncertainty principle
    LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
    {everything else}
    good stuff
  3. #3
    When you apply ISF theorem hands like this begin to show up.

    This is essentially a bluff

    Seat 1: bouh ($660.60 in chips)
    Seat 2: heybude ($850.85 in chips)
    heybude: posts small blind $2
    bouh: posts big blind $4
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to heybude [Kc As]
    heybude: raises $8 to $12
    bouh: raises $40 to $52
    heybude: calls $40
    *** FLOP *** [Jh Kd Qd]
    bouh: bets $76
    heybude: calls $76
    *** TURN *** [Jh Kd Qd] [Ad]
    bouh: checks
    heybude: bets $172
    bouh: calls $172
    *** RIVER *** [Jh Kd Qd Ad] [6d]
    bouh: checks
    heybude: bets $550.85 and is all-in
    bouh: folds

    This is actually both ISF theorem and Yeti Theorem combined.

    Seat 1: heybude ($486 in chips)
    Seat 2: Omnipotent ($751 in chips)
    Omnipotent: posts small blind $2
    heybude: posts big blind $4
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to heybude [9d Th]
    Omnipotent: raises $8 to $12
    heybude: calls $8
    *** FLOP *** [2s 3d 2c]
    heybude: checks
    Omnipotent: bets $20
    heybude: raises $36 to $56
    Omnipotent: raises $92 to $148
    heybude: raises $326 to $474 and is all-in
    Omnipotent: folds
    Check out the new blog!!!
  4. #4
    bode's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    8,043
    Location
    slow motion
    i would think the ISF theorem wouldnt apply as much to HU as it would 6max or FR because the HU opening ranges are soooo wide.
    eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bode-ist
    i would think the ISF theorem wouldnt apply as much to HU as it would 6max or FR because the HU opening ranges are soooo wide.
    Yeah its a lot harder but it still works.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  6. #6
    One other application to the theorem is if you can't put your opponent on a range than its better to try to play your hand for its own value (unless of course you just think hes FOS).
    Check out the new blog!!!
  7. #7
    two thumbs way up
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    two thumbs way up
    says Sulsky and Friends At The Movies
    Check out the new blog!!!
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Bode-ist
    i would think the ISF theorem wouldnt apply as much to HU as it would 6max or FR because the HU opening ranges are soooo wide.
    Actually i find that in HU it applies well when there's a lot of 3-betting. When Danny was telling me about his theorem he was playing HU and the perfect hand came up to explain.

    ISF raised and opponent called.

    Flop was Q93. two tone

    opp check, He bet, opp c/r. Since ISF knew that this certain opp would 3-bet, 99, QQ, and AQ, and that he would only stack off with those hands, Q9, and 33, ISF floated and shoved over a turn blank where the opp had not even close to good odds to call with an FD.

    ISF scoops a nice pot.

    It's kind of the same reasoning behind being very aggro when comeone limp/calls in the SB.
  10. #10
    Nice work ISF, also nice example by Massimo too.
    Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
  11. #11
    Galapogos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    6,876
    Location
    The Loser's Lounge
    I think you're right, the theorem is basically simple and understood by a lot of players. But I think you do an excellent job of explaining it, like in the AA/72o guy example.


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Galapogos
    I think you're right, the theorem is basically simple and understood by a lot of players. But I think you do an excellent job of explaining it, like in the AA/72o guy example.
    You're right, its understood by most players on some level but when you really get what it is, the applications are vast.

    The AA/72o example was actually something theoretical about "strength of range," that, because it is so hard to define, i ended up defining as the amount of "nut" hands you have, with nut being the amount of hands you will stack off with. The AA/72o example shows why it MAY be better to simply have a super strong hand in your range and a bad one than two strong ones (well having the first at least makes decisions much easier and allows us to have control of the game)
    Check out the new blog!!!
  13. #13
    Off topic: Omnipotent is a raising monkey and he bluffs waaaaay too often. Your HU game must have been fun.
  14. #14
    excellent post! thanks.

    in other words, i think what you're explaining is how to exploit the gap concept in cash games.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by silu_nz
    Off topic: Omnipotent is a raising monkey and he bluffs waaaaay too often. Your HU game must have been fun.
    I found him to actually to be a pretty good player, but i was playing flawlessly.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  16. #16
    I wanna play flawlessly
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy
    I wanna play flawlessly
    Your avatars ass is flawless.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  18. #18
    Just another FTR member who appreciates when good poker players take the time to write something that can greatly improve others' understanding of the game. Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters
    Ambition is fucking great, but you're trying to dig up gold with a rocket launcher and are going to blow the whole lot to shit unless you refine your tools
  19. #19
    Just some more notes as I co me across examples more.

    If you have called pre flop and you see an AQ7 flop, most good players will play much tighter and passive on this flop because his opponent, who raised pre, has a range way ahead of us. This example is at the very least subconsciously known by all of us. However,flops like KQx,KJx,AJx,KTx,ATx, QJx, and even QTx are all great candidates as well for being the aggressor as a preflop raiser. Feel free to peel off on these boards a lot because of this.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  20. #20
    heres the Sauce theorem- DONT FOLD TOP SET EVER PLZ THANKS
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  21. #21
    bjsaust's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    6,347
    Location
    Ballarat, Australia
    Hmm, this explains why I make some of the moves I do, when I couldnt have put it into words myself.

    The classic example from my play is say in a HU game I hit middle or bottom pair on a 2 tone flop, and a c/c both flop and turn, then the 3rd flush card hits the river. I still only have a low pair, but I put in a solid river bet, because a flush draw probably makes up the majority of my 'range' given my betting pattern.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill
    Just another FTR member who appreciates when good poker players take the time to write something that can greatly improve others' understanding of the game. Thanks!
    QFT

    Great post ISF. Think I should read the SHNL forum more often
    This is not my signature. I just write this at the bottom of every post.
  23. #23
    It's gold Jerry
    It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
    Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    heres the Sauce theorem- DONT FOLD TOP SET EVER PLZ THANKS
  25. #25
    I'm really happy with the results of this post.

    Ash just made a post in which he turned TT into a bluff with good logic given opponents range and given the fact he normally never bets KK-TT on this paticular flop.

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-58645.htm

    While it may not of been correct it was an awesome thought of a bet and it definetely is moving in the thinking direction you want to go in.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  26. #26
    It's brilliant ISF

    I had a theory from watching people play 25-50 NL. Good players with strong hands let their opponents have free cards. This isn't exactly profound poker wisdom, it's well known, but you don't need the stone cold nuts to let your opponent catch something to pay your AA/set off.
    take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately
  27. #27
    Damn this post is awesome, I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it because I usually don't think in ranges and such (I try to stay away from headaches and good players as a rule)

    So what you're saying is that if you think your opponent thinks you're ahead, bet more often, amirite lol?

    So if my name is Daniel N. and I'm known for the ability to bluff any two cards, it becomes my job to bet retarded flops like

    Th 9d 2c

    because my opponent thinks I might have it

    WHEN I'M REALLY HOLDING KQ and have gobs of outs.

    mindgames, son.
  28. #28
    T92 isn't a super great flop to cbet, though it's good, there are much better.

    I appreciate the appreciation (lol), but I do think you don't completely get it, when your game gets to a level where you're analyzing ranges rather than playing unorganized guessing games you'll get it more.

    AND it's much much more extensive than flop cbetting.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  29. #29
    Keilah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    660
    Location
    Northern BC, Canada
    Oh, I get it. So instead of playing jsut your hand against the opponent's range, you play the range your opponent puts you on vs the range you put your opponent on.
    When thinking like this, do you give more weighting to the hand you actually have?
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Keilah
    Oh, I get it. So instead of playing just your hand against the opponent's range, you play the range your opponent puts you on vs the range you put your opponent on.
    When thinking like this, do you give more weighting to the hand you actually have?
    Well put.

    Hmmm, I think from my own experience and my experience talking to good players is that this isn't really the case. When I'm doing any move I'm always thinking about every possible hand I could show up with here, and there isn't much focus on my own hand. But I mean of course if your playing your own hand a certain way its part of your range, and likely one of the most likely hands in your range, so in that sense I say the answer is yes, but I think people should never really focus as much on the hand they have as much as they probably do.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  31. #31
    ISF theorem?


    POKERSTARS GAME #14638439109: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2008/01/18 - 02:30:11 (ET)
    Table 'Oriola' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 1: petey989 ($531.35 in chips)
    Seat 2: krmont22 ($600 in chips)
    Seat 3: Kanoa_Style ($598.05 in chips)
    Seat 4: Sauce123 ($785.65 in chips)
    Seat 5: Blazed187 ($600 in chips)
    Seat 6: smnrgg81 ($1250.70 in chips)
    petey989: posts small blind $3
    krmont22: posts big blind $6
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Sauce123 [8s 9s]
    Kanoa_Style: folds
    Sauce123: raises $12 to $18
    Blazed187: raises $60 to $78
    smnrgg81: folds
    petey989: calls $75
    krmont22: folds
    Sauce123: calls $60
    *** FLOP *** [As 3c Kd]
    petey989: checks
    Sauce123: checks
    Blazed187: checks
    *** TURN *** [As 3c Kd] [6c]
    petey989: checks
    Sauce123: checks
    Blazed187: checks
    *** RIVER *** [As 3c Kd 6c] [Ah]
    petey989: checks
    Sauce123: bets $707.65 and is all-in
    Blazed187: folds
    petey989: folds
    Sauce123 collected $237 from pot
    Sauce123: shows [8s 9s] (a pair of Aces)
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  32. #32
    i dunno if it is sauce but its obv nobody has an A or K, guess your repping AJs/Axs or weakly played AQ
    Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
  33. #33
    not really isf theorem
    Check out the new blog!!!
  34. #34
    gabe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    13,803
    Location
    trying to live
    isf theorem only works if your opponents read you for what you think your range is
  35. #35
    sauce is repping a tricky 33 or 66 but I'd doubt anyone has an ace here so it doesn t really matter
    when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
  36. #36
    zzzzz "repping"
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  37. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by gabe
    isf theorem only works if your opponents read you for what you think your range is
    Yeah I noted that somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by ISF
    1. Our range is entirely dependent on what our opponent thinks our range is. Therefore a fish is not putting us on much of a range and all we can really do is think on the 1st level. We have a hand that is beating his range then we bet/call, if we dont then we fold/(call if we are drawing or since we are ahead of some and pot odds dictate).

    I'm wondering what you and Ben think of ISF theorem in general? I feel like its a pretty fundamental concept to becoming a good poker player, but I'm afraid I'm wrong.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  38. #38
    I think I may revise this there are some flaws in some of the reasoning.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  39. #39
    i mean, it seems kind of obvious to me?
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  40. #40
    like if i CC with A8s to a UTG+1 range

    and a 2s 4s 9c flops and it goes check check (i have no FD)

    im prob betting any turn except an ace which im check/calling
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    i mean, it seems kind of obvious to me?
    It is kinda obvious to people that play ranges, but I think there's a whackload of players that don't think in those terms (even though they should). That's why I think it's valuable - it makes players think in terms of putting opps on ranges and adapting their play accordingly. Most ABC players don't bluff nearly enough, imo, and this gives some kind of basis for ramping it up.

    My only question is whether it has ever been stated elsewhere differently somewhere in the poker literature? If not, then props to ISF.
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    i mean, it seems kind of obvious to me?
    1. It's so obvious they don't understand why it needs to be explained.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  43. #43
    this is a much better way of explaining a leveled thinking concept i was told once and never really grasped..

    level 1 - What do i have?
    level 2 - What does my opponent have?
    level 3 - What does my opponent think i have? - ISF therom?
    level 4 - What does my opponent think i think he has?

    Its alot to rap your head around unless you've been..
    1. working on reading your opponents alot already
    2. working on bluffing as a representation of a given hand rather than just the thought that your opponent doesnt have shit.

    putting the 2 together and acting accordingly is the theorem right? and would put you in an immensly powerful position as a poker player. It turns bluffing into a winning play instead of a half hearted hope at glory as it is for most of us when we start.
  44. #44
    Mas Redondo,

    ISF theorem is a lot more about understanding range equities than what you said, but what you did say is correct.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  45. #45
    Ragnar4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,184
    Location
    Billings, Montana
    Doesn't this mean by extension that: If your range is ahead of your opponents range, you should be willing to call in marginal spots more often, and if your opponents range is ahead of yours you should be willing to fold in marginal spots more often. Marginal being defined as 2nd pair, bottom 2 on co-ordinated board, shove with QQ over a 3 bet etc etc.
    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes
  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar4
    Doesn't this mean by extension that: If your range is ahead of your opponents range, you should be willing to call in marginal spots more often, and if your opponents range is ahead of yours you should be willing to fold in marginal spots more often. Marginal being defined as 2nd pair, bottom 2 on co-ordinated board, shove with QQ over a 3 bet etc etc.
    No, those spots involve your hand against their range. Although, often versus good players when you have the top of the range and forced with a call or fold spot you should call and when you have the bottom of your range you should often fold. But these aren't hard and fast rules.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  47. #47
    Is this ISF Theorem?

    You haven't been 3betting light, and you 3bet from MP w/ 99. Flop comes T62 and you CRAI.
  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash256
    Is this ISF Theorem?

    You haven't been 3betting light, and you 3bet from MP w/ 99. Flop comes T62 and you CRAI.
    I think that's the "strangeplayTheorem"
    when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ash256
    Is this ISF Theorem?

    You haven't been 3betting light, and you 3bet from MP w/ 99. Flop comes T62 and you CRAI.
    Wow I'm really glad I made this post, because it allows me to see flaws in peoples thinking.

    Explaining ISF theorem normally involves saying "my range in his view is likely this, his range is that, so I bet/c/r/shove."

    This isn't really ISF theorem. You've gotten part of it somewhat right, you have a tight range so you play it aggressively. BUT note you need to have the idea that your opponent thinks this as well. Also, see how you didn't even consider your opponents range? Your opponents range is very important here. Some people don't call threebets light at all, so surely if your opponent was only calling threebets with AK, TT+, this play would be horrible. Now if he's calling lightly, it's not horrible, but a lot of this hand can be explained by equity, and this play likely isn't good unless there is super aggressive spewy history.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  50. #50
    chardrian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    5,435
    I've stolen this hand from the MTT section, but is this the ISF theorem?

    First level, about the 15th hand or so. No read on the villain. How did I do? When he 3bets the flop that small I'm thinking he either has 33, AT, AA or air here. Is my river check okay? Really, any bet on the river commits me if he check-raises all in. The way he played it I can't see him calling with much on the river if he doesn't have me beat.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    saw flop|saw showdown

    UTG+1 (t10000)
    MP1 (t9775)
    MP2 (t9000)
    MP3 (t10775)
    CO (t10600)
    Hero (t9925)
    SB (t10225)
    BB (t9775)
    UTG (t9925)

    Preflop: Hero is Button with 9 , T .
    UTG calls t50, 2 folds, MP2 calls t50, 2 folds, Hero calls t50, 1 fold, BB checks.

    Flop: (t225) 9 , 3 , T (4 players)
    BB checks, UTG bets t225, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t700, BB folds, UTG raises to t1300, Hero calls t600.

    Turn: (t2825) 7 (2 players)
    UTG bets t2850, Hero calls t2850.

    River: (t8525) 5 (2 players)
    Dealer: UTG, it's your turn. You have 15 seconds to act
    Dealer: Player UTGhas requested TIME
    UTG checks, Hero checks.

    To me, villain's range on that flop is JQ, 33, 99 and TT (both unlikely), JJ-AA, AT, and air.

    By the turn since we really are only worried about 33 there
    and our opp has committed so much of his stack + he likely has a hand (KK or AA) that he'll stack off with, we push.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  51. #51
    Char,

    Not clearly ISF theorem, but it really relates to everything. Not a great example of it though, it's more like reading a range and deciding what to do.

    I'd prob bet the river though, when he checks i think we're ahead a lot. I think I shove the turn too, I'm not sure we should be that scared against a tourney player who habitually overplay TP and limp AA/KK.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  52. #52
    I think this is a pretty good example of ISF theurum. Hopefully I have the concept down.

    HU 50NL eff stacks 85

    Hero raises to 1.50
    Villain calls


    Flop
    Villain checks
    Hero checks

    Turn
    Villain bets 1.50
    Hero calls 1.50

    River
    Villain bets 4.50
    Hero raises to 16.00
    Villain
    Flopping quads and boats like its my job
  53. #53
    Galapogos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    6,876
    Location
    The Loser's Lounge
    What are you repping? Quads?


    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123
    I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
  54. #54
    yeah i dont like that at all. maybe he bet with ace high and folds. or maybe some kind of 66/77 but even then he might call depending on villain. and he has a boat a lot which he never folds.
  55. #55
    nutsinho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,839
    Location
    flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
    that hand isnt bad at all if you have a clean image, he never has a boat


    edit: oops i read hh wrong, yeah i dont like it.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  56. #56
    eh actually after talking to spenda im not sure this fits. flop check can easily be a missed check/raise because I am betting this flop a ton after raising pf. Also there is a history in this but I don't think it really matters. This is not ISF theorem. But I would be really interested in why nutsinho thinks villain never has a boat here?
    Flopping quads and boats like its my job
  57. #57
    yeah why cant villain have a boat?
  58. #58
    nutsinho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    3,839
    Location
    flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
    whoa i really read the action wrong. sorry i was kinda drunk earlier
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  59. #59
    [] ISF theorem.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  60. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
    [] ISF theorem.
    simple and sweet.
    Flopping quads and boats like its my job
  61. #61
    lol danny stop using 2p2 things on this forum damnit!
  62. #62
    idk i like the [x] boxes, I don't use them all the time but sometimes it can be clever
    Check out the new blog!!!
  63. #63
    will641's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5,266
    Location
    getting my swell on
    is this a good example of ISF theorem? we had been 3 betting each other quite a bit, but no show downs. we bother either folded flop or pre. my reasoning here is if has a draw im winning, and basically im repping AK, AA, KK, set, KQ, or like AQs, AJs. i doubt he shows up with anything worse than KJ, and i think he mightve folded this pre as i am UTG raiser.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    Hero ($241.35)
    MP ($230.90)
    CO ($277.55)
    Button ($198)
    SB ($232.25)
    BB ($282.60)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J.
    Hero raises to $8, 1 fold, CO calls $8, 3 folds.

    Flop: ($19) 3, K, 8 (2 players)
    Hero bets $14, CO raises to $38, Hero raises to $233.35, CO folds.

    Final Pot: $95


    EDIT: if anyone saw the AK hand, that was an accident.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  64. #64
    I assume you meant you felt he doesn't show up with anything better than KJ.

    This is ISF theorem, the best example ive seen in awhile. Though that doesn't mean you played this hand correctly. I don't really like the raise size, and the decision to threebet here is questionable. Though I think overall its fine.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  65. #65
    just call and shove a non diamond turn
  66. #66
    will641's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5,266
    Location
    getting my swell on
    Quote Originally Posted by Massimo
    just call and shove a non diamond turn
    whats the point? i might as well just shove then and get it in, hope he makes a mistake by calling with a nut FD or whatever.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  67. #67
    this is basically what i'd call table dynamics and or game flow. it seems pretty intuitive to me? i think u do a good job of explaining the concept though, i guess i never really put the time/thought into figuring out exactly what i was doing, but just kinda knew it to be an important part of a well rounded game. i guess the game flow part comes in when you begin manipulating your own range in your opponents mind in order to induce him to take a strong bluff line, or to slow down significantly, or even give up by taking the line that he will most believe fulfills the part of your range u want him to apply the highest % to. i guess that may be a good follow up post as it takes this idea one step further now, doesnt it?
  68. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by will641
    Quote Originally Posted by Massimo
    just call and shove a non diamond turn
    whats the point? i might as well just shove then and get it in, hope he makes a mistake by calling with a nut FD or whatever.
    a. calling with a nut flush draw isn't a mistake
    b. he's not only bluffing FDs here
    c. He's probably following through on the turn regardless of the card
  69. #69
    d. don't shove the turn on an A
  70. #70
    euphoricism's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    5,383
    Location
    Your place or my place
    more examples please.
    <Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
    Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!
  71. #71
    Can be full ring?

    10nl tables make it a much harder to find good spots to pull off this theorem.

    Reads: Villain peels on cheap streets but is totally weak-tight on late streets. He knows I'm tightass and surely he saw me breaking many fishes with my big hands. I'm fairly sure, he'd lead or check/shove a Ten on that board, because he's not that trappy.

    I'm 11/6.

    BossMedia Game #1005413619: Table Table TH 252 - $0.05/$0.10 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:27:18 - 2008/03/21
    Seat 1: syro77 ($2.27)
    Seat 2: nseth ($12.22)
    Seat 3: Sobokan ($9.60)
    Seat 4: _Vrax_ ($11.84)
    Seat 6: vardacs71 ($4.03)
    Seat 7: delptru ($17.31)
    Seat 8: Mr Scrooge ($10.09)
    Seat 9: ssjd1234 ($9.99)
    Seat 10: SEBOMSTAR ($1.50)
    Seat 5: zozi007 ($0.00)
    vardacs71 posts the small blind of $0.05
    delptru posts the big blind of $0.10
    _Vrax_ is the button
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to _Vrax_ [5s 5d]
    Mr Scrooge calls $0.10
    ssjd1234 calls $0.10
    SEBOMSTAR folds
    nseth folds
    _Vrax_ raises $0.55
    vardacs71 folds
    delptru folds
    Mr Scrooge calls $0.55
    ssjd1234 folds
    *** FLOP *** [Th Ac 9s]
    Mr Scrooge checks
    _Vrax_ bets $1.10
    Mr Scrooge calls $1.10
    *** TURN *** [Th Ac 9s] [Qh]
    Mr Scrooge checks
    _Vrax_ bets $3.10
    Mr Scrooge calls $3.10
    *** RIVER *** [Th Ac 9s Qh] [Ks]
    Mr Scrooge checks
    _Vrax_ goes all-in with $7.09
    Mr Scrooge folds.
    "How could I call that bet? How could you MAKE that bet? It's poker not solitaire. " - that Gus Bronson guy
  72. #72
    Yea I guess it is, but villain is never taking into account your range here. Hes like omg i have 2 cards in front of me!
    Flopping quads and boats like its my job
  73. #73
    nice post
    i diggggg bruhhhh
  74. #74
    will641's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    5,266
    Location
    getting my swell on
    i think thats an awful board to do that on. you want to do it when its not very likely that villain has a nut hand in his range, and there are a lot of nut hands in villains range here.
    Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
  75. #75
    I read ISF Theorem again today and I happened to play the following hand today - after playing it, it occurred to me that it might be an example of ISF Theorem in play. Please correct me if wrong (and yes I'm well aware this could be just pure spew combined with luck.)

    $0.1/$0.25 No Limit Holdem
    9 players
    Converted at weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG ($47.84)
    Hero ($28.85)
    MP1 ($22.34)
    MP2 ($26.22)
    MP3 ($24.31)
    CO ($38.90)
    BTN ($24.65)
    SB ($6.24)
    BB ($23.75)

    Pre-flop: ($0.35, 9 players) Hero is UTG+1
    1 fold, Hero raises to $1, MP1 raises to $3, 2 folds, CO calls $3, BTN calls $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2

    Flop: ($12.35, 4 players)
    Hero bets $6, MP1 calls $6, 2 folds

    Turn: ($24.35, 2 players)
    Hero checks, MP1 checks

    River: ($24.35, 2 players)
    Hero bets $8, 1 fold

    PF: Fold Pre, I know. My image at this time was nitty and I figured this suited connector would be nice to mix it up with. When the 3bet with overcalls came back to me I figured a lot of pocket pairs and premium cards were in play and that my hand would not be dominated and could flop well - and if it flopped a straight or flush draw I would be looking at huge implied odds.

    Flop: I figure my perceived A range in this spot is AcKc, QQ, TT, 77 - and if they knew the type of hand I actually played they could put KcJc, Jc9c and 9c8c in there also. Although multi-way pots tend to be honest I decided to bet on a bluff. I figured I'd get a lot of credit for a hand here and any club, card that finishes a straight (preferably J as AK is probably perceived as more likely) and a paired board (suggesting my set goes boat) would allow me a bluffing opportunity on later streets if called. Further, I figured I was somewhat likely to be called by cc hands where if no clubs came I could have showdown value with my pair.

    Turn: Flush completes, board pairs and I may now have flush, full house or quads with any hand in my perceived flop A range - if I had any of those nut hands and with $13 behind and a $24 pot I might check hoping that my value bet is more likely to be called on the river.

    River: Board double-pairs which just reinforces that I may very well have a full house now.

    My opponent is the one who put in the 3bet pre and he just flat called my 1/2 PSB on the flop - I think his range is heavy with AA, KK, JJ and AK. QQ and AQ possible but quite unlikely due to the low number of combinations and lack of aggression.

    In short, my actual holding is air, but my range is heavy with nut flushes and full houses where my opponents range is heavy with 3 pair hands. With a $24 pot and $13 behind I think he'll feel forced to call a shove thinking I can bluff - so instead I put out a 'callable' 'value' bet of $8 - and he folds.

    ISF Theorem? Yes/No/Panic?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •