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mixchange
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07-25-2007, 02:00 AM
Post subject: Comments: Sauce123's Simple Guide to Beating SHNL
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Comments re: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-58095.htm
Sauce,
Thanks so much for posting this. Always appreciated your advice.
Some questions:
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2. 3bet ANY HAND in your opponent's (positionally adjusted) opening range from any position. 3bet with a hand in the top 1/2-2/3 of their positionally adjusted opening range if they are a calling station or large donkey of some other sort. (MOST IMPORTANT PART OF GUIDE)
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I'm really confused by the wording here, I really don't understand what you are trying to say. By positionally adjusted, you just mean account for their range, based on what position they are in right? Isn't that implied when someone says range anyway, or am I missing something? Then, I just don't get your point, are you saying put them on a range, then raise with hands that are superior?
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4. Fold to a 4bet shove unless you have QQ+ AK if people aren't batshit insane.
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This should be stack-size related. 1/2 stacks and under you can open this more, to JJ IMO. Then I would tighten it against 100bb+ stacks to KK and AA. 200bb stack I only call a shove with AA.
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1. Cbet any flop containing 1-2 paint cards, any flop containing 3 cards 7 or lower, any flop containing disconnected cards and any flop which hit you. Do not cbet if you have not hit a flop with 4 or more ppl in the pot.
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This sounds much too loose, IMO. I think in a 3 way pot you are getting called too often to be cbetting this much, especially when you're doing it often you're going to get looked up....people will stick around with just high cards. You'll have to start double-barelling. Personally, I restrict the above comment to HU flops. What are your instructions if a lot of your cbets are getting called? Some tables you'll get a good portion of folds, others you are getting called.
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In a Reraised pot:
1. Continuation bet for 2/3 pot any flop containing one or more A K Q, any flop which has given you top pair or an 8+ out draw or better.
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This has to be situational, right? You didn't mean this as a blanket, right? I think with 1010 or JJ on AKx or KQx boards that might be spewy. You're most likely to be called down in RR pots, IMO.
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4. With your strongest hands and draws shove turn.
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do you mean made draws? Most good draws are strongest on the flop for a shove.
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2_Thumbs_Up
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 271
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I'd just like to point out that IMO you are the user who has provided the biggest amount of really great posts lately. Props.
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LimpinAintEZ
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: working myself up to FTR fullhouse status while not giving 1 solid piece of advice
Posts: 591
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god you would destroy me Sauce....my next exercise will be learning to 3 bet more - Right now I guess I just don't have the balls to do so - never have...guess i'm what they call a weak-tight - im such a big believer...
any minimum stake guidelines? 100NL+? Any HUD requirements, Like we don't 4 bet AK against a 14/7 or anything?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Very good and simple post, that cbet part is pretty much what i say to do when im teaching new players.
4. I think this needs to have a special exception "Fold to a fourbet shove unless u have KK+ at 200nl and 100nl versus's nits." I know this sounds ridiculously outlandish, as I can't even think to fold those hands pre in the games im playing in right now, but im almost positive this is correct with all the nits i played with at 200nl.
5. Christ does this one need to be repeated. People are always like "I'm being threebet constantly oh noes!!!
Calling oop isnt the answer.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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mixchange,
great points, i think i was being overly vague and agree with everything you said.
- by positionally adjusted I mean we are 3betting with anything in their opening range from a specific position. I just wanted to be clear that we shouldn't be 3betting 98s as a rule when a 21/16 raises 4x from UTG.
example: 19/17 raises otb, we 3bet with something approaching 87s+, QJo+ any pair. so maybe something slightly ahead of their opening range but approaching it. the point is that we should have incredible fold equity because of our preflop stats.
- 4bet QQ+ AK was based on tag players with 100 BB stacks as that is the most important type of player we will be playing against. LAG players perhaps add JJ and with 50 BB stacks we will be adding many many more hands.
- the cbetting strategy is 100% restricted to HU flops but as we are 3betting 4x an opener's range OOP and 3.5 or a little less in postion we wiill almost never have multiway 3betting action (if this occurs we will only bet if we have a hand or draw)
- cbetting 2/3 on a AKx or KQx flop is probably our most profitable line against most players if the pot is HU.
- when i say shove turn with made draws im referring to if our opponent called our flop bet in positon and the turn does not help our hand as this situation will come up frequently.
example: 20/16 opens in the CO. We 3bet 98s he calls. Flop T74 we bet 2/3 pot from bb he calls. Turn Q we should make a pot committing bet in this situation almost always.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i also probably didnt deal with preflop betsizing well. We open 4x from all positions.
we 3bet 3.5x in position and 4x OOP.
we 4bet 1.5x our opponents 3bet. For example we open to 4 he 3bet to 15 we 4bet to 35 or 40 hopefully giving him some perceived fold equity or postflop play which does not in fact exist.
our bets postflop in raised pots should generally be for 5/6 pot on the flop and 3/4 or so on turn.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Trikflow77
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: im so asian
Posts: 1,460
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I just started a "how to beat sauce123" thread on that other site.
jk nice work sir.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trikflow77
I just started a "how to beat sauce123" thread on that other site.
ha trik the funny part is that i play completely different from what i outlined here but some recent adjustments to how i have played and a deeper understanding of poker make me think this is an optimal strategy to build a bankroll
jk nice work sir.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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|~|ypermegachi
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07-25-2007, 04:27 AM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#9 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
I will edit/add to this later but anyone of average intelligence should be able to make 30,000 or more per year playing sporadically using this strategy.
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excellent guide sauce. thanks! btw, i just wanted to highlight this part and mention that that is actually a VERY low estimate.
with a good rakeback deal, if you run 1ptbb/100 @ 100NL, you'll be making 30k a year if you put in around 30-35 hours a week.
how do i know? cuz i'm running 1ptbb/100 this month and i am still averaging $20/hr with RB.
oh, and 100NL doesn't even count as MSNL. hell, it's "low stakes" on absolute.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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im going to make a "how to quote people" thread soon, nj sauce
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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sauce4modzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I think we all know which forum, l d 0
P.S.- I want a guarantee on this strat b/c as of tomorrow this is my gameplan.
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thizzSantaCruz
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Santa Cruz
Posts: 894
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Sauce.....
all I can say is your a BOSS. I don't think this will work at 25nl but when I make my way up to 100nl I am all over it. Until then I will just over aggro my way through the small stakes.
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Very nice post Sauce, thanks for sharing 
Still busting my ass on full ring atm but once I make the move to $100NL I want to start moving into $25NL sh once or twice a week to get experienced at that (since I run around 13/6 FR for some reason) and going to use this as my template for sure.
Looking at it from a LHE perspective, do you think it would work as well or do we just need to tighten up too much there still due to not being able to take away odds?
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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auto sticky please
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Knytestorme
Very nice post Sauce, thanks for sharing
Still busting my ass on full ring atm but once I make the move to $100NL I want to start moving into $25NL sh once or twice a week to get experienced at that (since I run around 13/6 FR for some reason) and going to use this as my template for sure.
Looking at it from a LHE perspective, do you think it would work as well or do we just need to tighten up too much there still due to not being able to take away odds? |
If you're playing SH limit and not 3betting a lot I think you're way behind the game. FR, I dunno, never played it.
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Sorry, I wasn't fully clear.
I'm not playing any limit atm, want to expand to that once a week as well to get more experience in it and by the looks of game availability and rakeback it seems sh seems the way to go and thus was just seeing if this info could be applied to limit at all or if the value of the more speculative hands goes down compared to NL due to not being able to push people out or get large implied odds.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Adam001: My note on him is something like light 3betting nit...
Nice post BTW. I was thinking a lot lately about turn shoving and when I should and shouldn't be doing this, while maintaining balance. This definately will help my reraised pot game.
My question is how would your 3betting strategy work with someone who plays a lot looser preflop? I get the feeling that if we were already a 20/16 player, then implimented this 3betting system, would we get the same result as the ~14/12 player you have created with your PF openers?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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very nice post, lot's of good ideas in here.
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Very very nice Sauce !
In general I think this is best for 50NL and up, because at most people there at least try to think at the 1st level. At 25NL and down, you'll see so much bad players that do very unlogical things that you're usually just better of being the nit and valuebetting. (That's my experience though)
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2. 3bet ANY HAND in your opponent's (positionally adjusted) opening range from any position. This does not mean you have to 3bet every hand in his range every time you get it, but it is your default play. 3bet with a hand in the top 1/2-2/3 of their positionally adjusted opening range if they are a calling station or large donkey of some other sort. (MOST IMPORTANT PART OF GUIDE)
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With hands like 98s, is it really more profitable to 3-bet in position against callingstations and donkeys, instead of calling? I'd imagine our implied odds are usually pretty large against them.
In general, with the above range against range, are we hoping our 3-bet gets called or not?
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3. Isolate/raise limpers with any hand you would open with from the button.
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Do you have a minimum number of limpers for limping behind, like 2 or 3? Or do you just never do it?
What about OOP?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Wow, weird. I decided to experiment and played 30/15 tonight, tons of 2 and 3 barelling and made 9 buyins at 100nl -- inspired by some of sauce, lukie, and ISF's posts lately.
I stole tons of pots and my big hands got paiddddd
Never played this crazy -- reraising whenever I felt weakness, even with nothing... just finally followed instinct as to when I thought someone had somethign and when they didn't, the cards mattered not much... maybe 100nl is a lot more passive in small pots but I haven't pulled this type of table bossing at 200nl yet.
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Kits
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Straight
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 129
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Awesome post man. Seriously. Thanks. Now I just need to make sure I understand all of it!
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
Wow, weird. I decided to experiment and played 30/15 tonight, tons of 2 and 3 barelling and made 9 buyins at 100nl -- inspired by some of sauce, lukie, and ISF's posts lately.
I stole tons of pots and my big hands got paiddddd
Never played this crazy -- reraising whenever I felt weakness, even with nothing... just finally followed instinct as to when I thought someone had somethign and when they didn't, the cards mattered not much... maybe 100nl is a lot more passive in small pots but I haven't pulled this type of table bossing at 200nl yet.
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Nice! But shouldn't the vpip and pfr percentages be a lot closer to eachother then 30/15 with sauce his strategy?
More like 30/23 or 25/20?
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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are you trying fold more opponents when OOP sauce? I bet 4x bb in every position
i can see the argument we want more callers because we make more money on the button (and play better)
but the same can be said for raising more... I know ppl that raise 5xbb on button, 4x in other position!
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mixchange
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 1,665
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by minSim
Quote:
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Originally Posted by mixchange
Wow, weird. I decided to experiment and played 30/15 tonight, tons of 2 and 3 barelling and made 9 buyins at 100nl -- inspired by some of sauce, lukie, and ISF's posts lately.
I stole tons of pots and my big hands got paiddddd
Never played this crazy -- reraising whenever I felt weakness, even with nothing... just finally followed instinct as to when I thought someone had somethign and when they didn't, the cards mattered not much... maybe 100nl is a lot more passive in small pots but I haven't pulled this type of table bossing at 200nl yet.
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Nice! But shouldn't the vpip and pfr percentages be a lot closer to eachother then 30/15 with sauce his strategy?
More like 30/23 or 25/20? |
maybe, I dunno... but I was calling a lot of raises and just betting against them based on what showed up on the board vs. what I thought was their range, even if I missed
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
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- this strategy was basically me trying to simplify play in hu pots and create a lot of PF fold equity.
-Its also incredibly difficult to spew using this strategy
-I definitely left a bunch of shit out but fwiw this strategy would look a lot more like 17/15 than 30/23 in terms of preflop stats.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
auto sticky please
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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been doing some editing also.
major things ive changed:
1. Put some shit in preflop about when it is ok to call a raise (note it says never to call a raise in a hu pot)
2. i changed the 3bet any hand in his opening range to 3bet any hand in the top 1/2 of his opening range. this just has to do with balance issues as you will be 3betting too much if u followed the strategy before to the letter.
what i was trying to get across before was you use his range as a pool of hands you can 3bet in this situation and then you decide whether metagame factors etc dictate you should 3bet this specific hand.
but thats a lot more complicated and im going for simplicity so id say if you just almost always 3bet any hand in the top 1/2 of his opening range you should be playing relatively balanced.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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griffey24
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07-25-2007, 03:00 PM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#28 (permalink)
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
As a defauly 3bet with the top 1/2 of hands they open with. 3bet with a hand in the top 2/3 of their positionally adjusted opening range if they are a calling station or large donkey of some other sort. (MOST IMPORTANT PART OF GUIDE)
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This makes sense if we are playing from out of the blinds, but do you recommend this rule from the blinds as well? If thats the case, seems as though we should be 3-betting a VERY wide range against a button-opener/blind stealer?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jay-Z
I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Jager,
I would never play at a table with adam001, the guy has the skills of a 5/10 reg at least and he just absolutely kills 400nl.
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sauce123
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07-25-2007, 03:32 PM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#30 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
As a defauly 3bet with the top 1/2 of hands they open with. 3bet with a hand in the top 2/3 of their positionally adjusted opening range if they are a calling station or large donkey of some other sort. (MOST IMPORTANT PART OF GUIDE)
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This makes sense if we are playing from out of the blinds, but do you recommend this rule from the blinds as well? If thats the case, seems as though we should be 3-betting a VERY wide range against a button-opener/blind stealer? |
ding ding ding
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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minSim
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Deventer
Posts: 1,512
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Quote:
6. Call a raise in any position if the following conditions are present:
a) you are holding an SC or a PP
b) There are two or more people already in the pot
c) your hand is not strong enough to 3bet (not in the top 1/2 if their opening range from that position)
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This means 3-betting PP's a lot? Aren't you taking away a lot of it's potential that way?
I don't see any difference while being in or out of position. Can that be ignored because we often have initiative on the flop?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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yea one of the drawbacks of this strategy is we are not taking full use of position.
its fine and optimal to 3bet a bit tighter in the blinds
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
Jager,
I would never play at a table with adam001, the guy has the skills of a 5/10 reg at least and he just absolutely kills 400nl.
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I didn't say I don't respect his game. I think I have about ~2k hands on him, and he ran about 12/9 but I think he 3bet his entire range.  Right after that I seen he had a tourney score and moved up. I thought he was solid, but I was never really bothered by him because he was so tight.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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i wasnt trying to be condescending
yeah its really hard to tell how good your opponents are.
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 78
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Quote:
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Isolate/raise limpers with any hand you would open with from the button.
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So UTG+1 (+) we are raising with our button range?
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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if UTG limps then yes
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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litetruck
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 78
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Quote:
6. Call a raise in any position if the following conditions are present:
a) you are holding an SC or a PP
b) There are two or more people already in the pot
c) your hand is not strong enough to 3bet (not in the top 1/2 if their opening range from that position)
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Are we assuming 100bb effective stack? What about in a 3bet pot?
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Fnord
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07-25-2007, 07:27 PM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#38 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
1. Open AK, AQs, 22-AA UTG.
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Drop 22-66 for 2 reasons:
o They're -EV in a lot of player's databases from this position.
o It makes you look like an even bigger nit.
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Doom
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07-25-2007, 07:57 PM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#39 (permalink)
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 12
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[quote="Fnord"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
1. Open AK, AQs, 22-AA UTG.
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You fold AQo UTG at a 6-max tables? What? What???
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Fnord
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07-25-2007, 08:06 PM
Post subject: Re: Sauce123's Super-Simple Guide to Beating Games Post-UIGE
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#40 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Doom
You fold AQo UTG at a 6-max tables? What? What???
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It's +EV for me and probably should be a raise. If our aim is to drop marginal holdings OOP for the sake of driving down our VP$IP & PFR on the HUDs for exploitation, then 22-55, 66 and 77 are better canidates. 88+, AQ+, AJs, KQs is a range we can fight loose 3-bets with.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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fnord- there are a few things u arent thinking about:
1. pairs r easy to play
2. they balance our range on low flops to prevent floating
3. they are my most profitable hands idk about the rest of you
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sauce123
2. they balance our range on low flops to prevent floating
3. they are my most profitable hands idk about the rest of you
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Is 22-55 showing a profit from UTG/HJ for you in your database?
Also, even if you're good, showing down cheap is hard out of position and you're extremely vulnerable. SCs can hit pairs then check behind. Set over set is rare but expensive. etc.
I once thought as you did, then results convinced me otherwise. Also, if we're trying to drive down our PFR, it's an easy spot to drop.
Finally, turned pairs help quite a bit against floats.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
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Here's an evil thought:
Our range is not only defined by the hands we would play in a certain way, it is also defined by the range of hands similar players would play in a certain way.
It would take an absurd amount of hands to remove 22-55 from our UTG range unless they could do so via a forum post, table talk, etc.
Hence, we don't need to ever play a hand for an opponent to have to put it in our range.
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Here's an evil thought:
Our range is not only defined by the hands we would play in a certain way, it is also defined by the range of hands similar players would play in a certain way.
It would take an absurd amount of hands to remove 22-55 from our UTG range unless they could do so via a forum post, table talk, etc.
Hence, we don't need to ever play a hand for an opponent to have to put it in our range.
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Fnord why don't you post these kind of thoughts more? This is the sick kind of stuff i want to be discussing.
Oh god so genius.
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Jager
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 754
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Perceived Range v Actual Range.
This is why it is always good to take good notes...
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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fnord- been looking thru my database and it appears that i dont have the sample size to make specific predictions- however in both UTG and hijack my biggest losers r hands like KJo, KQo, AQo, AJo while i tend to make money with the same hands soooted. also, pairs seem to have sick variance: for instance im down 3k with QQ in the hijack, and another 3.5k with 88 while im up about the same with 22 and 33 (these are all over 300k hand database). So i stick by my original statement with the caveat that perhaps we should be adding all sooted broadways to our UTG range and continue to leave out AQ.
i also think ur point about perceived ranges will allow us to successfully take down a lot of pots with small pairs on Kxx and Axx flops where x doesnt hit our hand.
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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I think 22-55 play similar enough you can look at the net win/loss them collectivly from UTG and UTG+1 6-handed and come to a reasonable conclusion in a few thousand hands.
After thinking about this for a while and comparing results with some other people, I think JTs > 22 in aggressive online games where people are regularly testing but not committing because JTs is going to hit more flops.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
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Good god our UTG range and UTG+1 is sick tight, great thing is with our CO/BTN range's being larger than the normal NiTTAGG that our perceived range's will be wider there and tighter OTB/CO. I think that's some good deception, isn't it?
If I'm totally thinking back-asswards plz lemme know.
Also, I'm assuming that positional stats are not available on HUD's, that's correct isn't it.
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sauce123
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Dizzy
Posts: 2,405
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i insta raise any pair and any SC UTG but then again im a lagtard who never folds so w/e
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I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
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IowaSkinsFan
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigspenda73
Good god our UTG range and UTG+1 is sick tight, great thing is with our CO/BTN range's being larger than the normal NiTTAGG that our perceived range's will be wider there and tighter OTB/CO. I think that's some good exploting, isn't it?
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FYP and realizing why is essential.
And yes
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