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Can someone 'splain to me this "click it back" thi

  
 
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dalecooper
Old 03-03-2008, 05:40 PM     Post subject: Can someone 'splain to me this "click it back" thi #1 (permalink)  
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I've been seeing the term a lot and seen a few hand histories - I just want to hear the theory that goes into it. Thanks.
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b-rabbit
Old 03-03-2008, 05:46 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 ask gabe. its kind of his thing
do the right thing.
 
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Galapogos
Old 03-03-2008, 08:06 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 Gabe coined it. It's when you min 3-bet someone that raises you on the flop, you simply hit the raise button right after they raise. Now all his fan boys on 2p2 are loving it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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dalecooper
Old 03-03-2008, 08:31 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Gabe coined it. It's when you min 3-bet someone that raises you on the flop, you simply hit the raise button right after they raise.
That I get, but to what end? Regain control of the hand? Get more money in with a made hand vs. a bad player? Ease stress on the hand muscles that would type in a real raise or work the slider bar? None/all of the above?
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Galapogos
Old 03-03-2008, 08:57 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galapogos
Gabe coined it. It's when you min 3-bet someone that raises you on the flop, you simply hit the raise button right after they raise.
That I get, but to what end? Regain control of the hand? Get more money in with a made hand vs. a bad player? Ease stress on the hand muscles that would type in a real raise or work the slider bar? None/all of the above?
It's just to fuck with people. Sometimes to get them to fold, sometimes to get them to stack off stupid. Don't ask how to do one and not the other. I am not balla enough to master this play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sauce123
I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.
 
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griffey24
Old 03-04-2008, 02:13 AM #6 (permalink)  
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 I'm sure Gabe can obviously explain this the best, but I think this hand is a decent hand where I clicked it back on flop.

Villain was playing pretty aggressively and spewy. I decided after his flop raise that I was willing to stack off on this board. So my options were to 3bet it big (he might fold better hands I'm flipping with, but potentially may fold draws) or I can click it back and induce shoves from all hands I'm flipping with and from all draws that I'm dominating.

Cryptologic
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $2/$5
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
Hero: $1327.50
UTG+1: $507.40
CO: $350.90
Button: $493.20
SB: $502
BB: $1112.20

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with
Hero raises to $15, 2 folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: ($37, 2 players)
Hero bets $24, Button raises to $75, Hero raises to $150, Button raises all-in $478.2, Hero calls.

Turn: ($993.4, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $993.4)


River: ($993.4, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $993.4)


Results:
Final pot: $993.4
Button shows
Hero shows :Ah:
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wufwugy
Old 03-04-2008, 02:19 AM #7 (permalink)  
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 So basically it's has nothing to do with play strategy, but just a way of fucking with, having fun, and metagaming maybe.
 
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griffey24
Old 03-04-2008, 02:28 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
So basically it's has nothing to do with play strategy, but just a way of fucking with, having fun, and metagaming maybe.
I think it can definitely be strategic. Realizing that you're playing with an aggressive player, and realizing that clicking it back will give them the appearance of fold equity and so it could potentially induce them to get it in with worse hands.
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EzDuzIt
Old 03-04-2008, 02:28 AM #9 (permalink)  
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i think gabe is obligated to right us a post on clicking it back. plzzz gabe?
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silu73
Old 03-04-2008, 02:37 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I was watching a Cardrunners video this morning (I think it was peachykeen) and he was analysing a hand he was not involved in and it seemed that a certain player didn't react properly to a min-reraise on the flop and played the turn and river passively and lost to the flopped nuts. I think this can certainly work against players who you have history with and play by the book.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 03-04-2008, 02:42 AM #11 (permalink)  
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 you can click it back in spots where

1. Opps range has no draws in it but rather made hands and air.
2. in spots to give the appearance that opp can shove over and have FE when he really can't.
3. Idk a lot of others.

Paging Gabe
Check out the new blog!!!
 
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Genitruc
Old 03-04-2008, 06:04 AM #12 (permalink)  
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 when someone s been checkraising you quite a bit, does it yet again, and you're comfortable felting, clicking it back is a great way to rep "playing back at him playing back" and to get them to shove drawing badly.

edit : cuz calling fllop and shoving the turn looks way stronger
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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gabe
Old 03-04-2008, 06:59 AM #13 (permalink)  
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ill write up some stuff when i return to states, maybe
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b-rabbit
Old 03-04-2008, 07:35 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 times when clicking it back has been most effective for me are the times when they fold...
you guys are talking about clicking it back to set up a push call. but clicking it back can be used in certain situations to bluff an aggressive player. in these types of situations a min3bet can appear to represent a strong hand, or at least one that beats your opponent. its all about leveling people and shit. idk
do the right thing.
 
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griffey24
Old 03-04-2008, 12:00 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b-rabbit
times when clicking it back has been most effective for me are the times when they fold...
you guys are talking about clicking it back to set up a push call. but clicking it back can be used in certain situations to bluff an aggressive player. in these types of situations a min3bet can appear to represent a strong hand, or at least one that beats your opponent. its all about leveling people and shit. idk
I think whether or not you are trying to get them to fold or to shove worse depends a lot on the board.

If the board is draw heavy then it is much more likely they were raising your bet with a draw in the first place and highly unlikely they will fold a draw to the minraise. Its more likely that an aggro player would see "fold equity" and push over the draw.

If its a dry board like J72 rainbow and they are raising you, then they are trying to rep a set or something so I think in this spot CiB would rep a strong overpair and possibly fold out their crap.
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phantom_lord
Old 03-04-2008, 10:00 PM #16 (permalink)  
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- elinhu sitting in seat 1 with €258.50 [Dealer]
- Master_G sitting in seat 2 with €186.33
- DVk0Infinity sitting in seat 4 with €590.48
- phantom_lord sitting in seat 5 with €280.15
- German_Beast sitting in seat 6 with €220.00

Master_G posted the small blind - €1.00
DVk0Infinity posted the big blind - €2.00
** Dealing card to phantom_lord: Ace of Hearts, 8 of Hearts
phantom_lord raised - €8.00
German_Beast folded
elinhu folded
Master_G called - €8.00
DVk0Infinity folded

** Dealing the flop: 9 of Spades, 9 of Hearts, 10 of Hearts
Master_G checked
phantom_lord bet - €14.00
Master_G raised - €30.00
phantom_lord raised - €46.00
Master_G folded
phantom_lord mucks:
phantom_lord wins €91.00 from the main pot
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Alexos
Old 03-04-2008, 10:36 PM #17 (permalink)  
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 imo its good b/c it accomplishes at least 3 things

1) cheapest bluff possible
2) induces shoves when u have monstars
3) allows u to take control of the hand

and the disadvantage being u allow ppl to draw out on u cheaply
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Marshall28
Old 03-04-2008, 10:43 PM #18 (permalink)  
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most of what everybody said i think is good. ive been doing this for like a year, in particular in 3bet pots. depending on villains perception of how you play, and the particular board, ive used it as a bluff tactic and a tactic to induce a jam. if u understand how villain thinks you think this can be a really powerful weapon.
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wufwugy
Old 03-04-2008, 11:13 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 Isn't it supposed to be insta?
 
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gabe
Old 03-04-2008, 11:21 PM #20 (permalink)  
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aejones said it was supposed to be but thats not necessary. the timebank then cib is kinda hilarious. he also referred to it as the gp theorem in his video, but theres no theory really, its just a sweet move.
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gabe
Old 03-04-2008, 11:24 PM #21 (permalink)  
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here are my random thoughts.

-alot of TAGs can c/r bluff you, but only a select few can make a pure air 4 bet bluff. clicking it back can stop them from check raise bluffing you when you are cbetting.

-the opposite is true for the really tough tricky players. alot of times they can 4 bet bluff and its great to click it back with strongish mediocre hands like TP2k or whatever, because they can guess that you would never do that with a very strong hand. then they shove and u call and its funny.

-its a great way to raise for info. once everyone starts progressing in their poker level everyone starts realizing how bad this is. but once you get on a higher level, it starts to make sense again.

if raising for info gives you a piece of info that prevents you from making a huge -ev mistake later on in the hand by sacrificing a relateively small bit of ev up front, then raising for info cant be THAT bad.

-it can buy you free cards, just like in limit. its great for when you don't really want to commit your stack with a draw but dont want to lose initiative because you dont want to be bluffed off the hand.

-its a great way to build pots early on vs fish without really scaring them off.


to use it though u have to know about who you are playing against. this means you have to know how they play and what they think of how you play. its all about hand ranges, after all
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nutsinho
Old 03-05-2008, 06:37 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 one from today

Seat 1: nutsinho ($460.80 in chips)
Seat 2: Pusi12 ($246.85 in chips)
Seat 3: gtp9998 ($418 in chips)
Seat 5: RIMKUS ($411.30 in chips)
Seat 6: Huge Gloves ($271.70 in chips)
Super Lawyer will be allowed to play after the button
RIMKUS: posts small blind $2
Huge Gloves: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to nutsinho [Ks Ts]
nutsinho: raises $12 to $16
Pusi12: folds
gtp9998: calls $16
RIMKUS: folds
Huge Gloves: folds
*** FLOP *** [9s Qd 4c]
nutsinho: bets $24
gtp9998: raises $48 to $72
nutsinho: raises $48 to $120
gtp9998: folds
nutsinho collected $180 from pot

vs pretty spazzy regular
planning to jam any A,J,8 or spade turn, win somehow with a K, c/f otherwise
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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Warpe
Old 03-05-2008, 07:16 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($29.33)
SB ($52.20)
Hero ($49.25)
UTG ($62.11)
MP ($63.55)
CO ($61.29)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J.
UTG raises to $2.5, 4 folds, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($5.25) 8, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG raises to $8, Hero raises to $16, UTG calls $62.11 (All-In), Hero calls $48.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($134.75) K (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($134.75) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $134.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and eights).
UTG has Ts Td (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $134.75. UTG wins $5.36.



 
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bode
Old 03-05-2008, 07:33 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

Button ($29.33)
SB ($52.20)
Hero ($49.25)
UTG ($62.11)
MP ($63.55)
CO ($61.29)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J.
UTG raises to $2.5, 4 folds, Hero calls $2.

Flop: ($5.25) 8, 8, 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG raises to $8, Hero raises to $16, UTG calls $62.11 (All-In), Hero calls $48.75 (All-In).

Turn: ($134.75) K (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($134.75) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $134.75

Results in white below:
Hero has Jh Js (two pair, jacks and eights).
UTG has Ts Td (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $134.75. UTG wins $5.36.
villain probably stacks off anyway here w/ TT, but he may pull this w/ 66/77 after you cib.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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nutsinho
Old 03-05-2008, 09:06 PM #25 (permalink)  
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 [ ] griffey and warpe actually clicked it back
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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Warpe
Old 03-05-2008, 09:11 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 lol, no flies on u

same principle tho



 
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sauce123
Old 03-05-2008, 11:01 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
here are my random thoughts.

-alot of TAGs can c/r bluff you, but only a select few can make a pure air 4 bet bluff. clicking it back can stop them from check raise bluffing you when you are cbetting.

-the opposite is true for the really tough tricky players. alot of times they can 4 bet bluff and its great to click it back with strongish mediocre hands like TP2k or whatever, because they can guess that you would never do that with a very strong hand. then they shove and u call and its funny.

-its a great way to raise for info. once everyone starts progressing in their poker level everyone starts realizing how bad this is. but once you get on a higher level, it starts to make sense again.

if raising for info gives you a piece of info that prevents you from making a huge -ev mistake later on in the hand by sacrificing a relateively small bit of ev up front, then raising for info cant be THAT bad.

-it can buy you free cards, just like in limit. its great for when you don't really want to commit your stack with a draw but dont want to lose initiative because you dont want to be bluffed off the hand.

-its a great way to build pots early on vs fish without really scaring them off.


to use it though u have to know about who you are playing against. this means you have to know how they play and what they think of how you play. its all about hand ranges, after all
gabe's such a nice guy
I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
 
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swiggidy
Old 03-05-2008, 11:05 PM #28 (permalink)  
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 villain thinks a little

me TJQK

raise from CO, SB calls

flop Q22
check, I cbet pot, almost insta min-raise, so I cib, snap fold
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
 
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nutsinho
Old 03-05-2008, 11:31 PM #29 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpe
lol, no flies on u

same principle tho
because you put in a third bet that wasnt all in? what a newfangled idea
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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nutsinho
Old 03-05-2008, 11:32 PM #30 (permalink)  
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 lol just playin im drunk
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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bode
Old 03-06-2008, 12:48 AM #31 (permalink)  
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 good or no good? im running 32/27 at this table and 28/24 at another table with the same villain. Hes prett aggro and i think he shoves AQ/KQ here. i dont think he raises a set on such a dry board.

POKERSTARS GAME #15767152636: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.25/$0.50) - 2008/03/05 - 19:23:36 (ET)
Table 'Philagoria II' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Bode-ist ($87 in chips)
Seat 2: viciousxp ($69.05 in chips)
Seat 3: kAy86 ($50 in chips)
Seat 4: liachtl ($15.85 in chips)
Seat 5: DJAM88 ($44.15 in chips)
Seat 6: KAKA1 ($34.20 in chips)
liachtl: posts small blind $0.25
DJAM88: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bode-ist [As Ad]
KAKA1: folds
Bode-ist: raises $1.50 to $2
viciousxp: calls $2
kAy86: folds
liachtl: folds
DJAM88: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [7s Qd 8c]
DJAM88: checks
Bode-ist: bets $4.25
viciousxp: raises $8.75 to $13
DJAM88: folds
Bode-ist: raises $8.75 to $21.75
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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will641
Old 03-06-2008, 01:41 AM #32 (permalink)  
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 can someone explain IIRC? i think i knew at one point in time, and remember it being really ghey.
Cash Rules Everything Around Me.
 
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griffey24
Old 03-06-2008, 03:57 AM #33 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
[ ] griffey and warpe actually clicked it back
haha true enough! damnnn.. I give bad CiB examples.. that aren't even clicking it back!
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bode
Old 03-06-2008, 10:55 AM #34 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by will641
can someone explain IIRC? i think i knew at one point in time, and remember it being really ghey.
if i recall correctly. and yes, it is one of the worst acronyms out there.
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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dalecooper
Old 03-06-2008, 02:00 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
good or no good? im running 32/27 at this table and 28/24 at another table with the same villain. Hes prett aggro and i think he shoves AQ/KQ here. i dont think he raises a set on such a dry board.
I'm new to this concept but that looks beautiful to me. Take a little jab at him and hopefully he'll go over your head with a worse hand. At the very least you know he's probably calling you.
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Warpe
Old 03-12-2008, 08:08 PM #36 (permalink)  
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 Example of when it's not a good idea:

Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

MP1: $100
MP2: $25.35
CO: $100
Hero (BTN): $101.70
SB: $126.35
BB: $20
UTG: $84.15
UTG+1: $109.65

CO posts $1
Pre-Flop: 9 9 dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, MP1 raises to $4.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $4.50, SB calls $4, BB folds

Flop: ($15.50) T 9 3 (3 Players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $12, Hero raises to $24, SB folds, MP1 calls $12

Turn: ($63.50) J (2 Players)
MP1 bets $71.50 and is All-In, Hero calls $71.50

River: ($206.50) J (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $206.50 Pot ($3 Rake)
MP1 showed A Q (a pair of Jacks) and LOST (-$100 NET)
Hero showed 9 9 (a full house, Nines full of Jacks) and WON $203.50 (+$103.50 NET)



 
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EzDuzIt
Old 03-12-2008, 08:24 PM #37 (permalink)  
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[ ] clicked it back
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Warpe
Old 03-12-2008, 08:54 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EzDuzIt
[X] clicked it back
cyp



 
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EzDuzIt
Old 03-12-2008, 09:16 PM #39 (permalink)  
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no...? he didnt even have a chance to click it back.
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bode
Old 03-12-2008, 10:19 PM #40 (permalink)  
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 warpe you havent clicked it back yet.

oh, and in my hand above villain shipped it in w/ KQ
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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pocketfours
Old 03-13-2008, 06:16 PM #41 (permalink)  
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 I've been minraising minraises for a long time. It's a bit similar move (and it's actually CiB compatible).

This bastard clicked it back to me three times on the flop yesterday:

Seat 3: BB ($282.40 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ 3H,4H ] ($142.50 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($0.50), BB posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
HERO bets $3, BB calls $2.50.

FLOP [board cards 7D,6D,8H ]
BB bets $1, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $25, BB folds.

Owned.
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nutsinho
Old 03-13-2008, 11:42 PM #42 (permalink)  
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 hahahah
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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griffey24
Old 03-13-2008, 11:51 PM #43 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
I've been minraising minraises for a long time. It's a bit similar move (and it's actually CiB compatible).

This bastard clicked it back to me three times on the flop yesterday:

Seat 3: BB ($282.40 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ 3H,4H ] ($142.50 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($0.50), BB posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
HERO bets $3, BB calls $2.50.

FLOP [board cards 7D,6D,8H ]
BB bets $1, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $25, BB folds.

Owned.
This is just ridiculous... lol

what could he POSSIBLY have had?? weird
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Genitruc
Old 03-14-2008, 02:56 AM #44 (permalink)  
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 looks to me like the race for HH of the year is pretty much over
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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XTR1000
Old 03-14-2008, 09:54 AM #45 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketfours
I've been minraising minraises for a long time. It's a bit similar move (and it's actually CiB compatible).

This bastard clicked it back to me three times on the flop yesterday:

Seat 3: BB ($282.40 in chips)
Seat 8: HERO [ 3H,4H ] ($142.50 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($0.50), BB posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
HERO bets $3, BB calls $2.50.

FLOP [board cards 7D,6D,8H ]
BB bets $1, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $2, BB bets $2, HERO bets $25, BB folds.

Owned.
awesome
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred View Post
xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
yo
 
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nutsinho
Old 03-14-2008, 10:15 AM #46 (permalink)  
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 this is HOTY so far
http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/388740
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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ChrisBCritter
Old 03-14-2008, 12:49 PM #47 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
That's a pretty sick call.
Hey knucklehead! Bonk!
 
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cjs55
Old 03-14-2008, 04:48 PM #48 (permalink)  
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lol and wtf at the two hands above.

Here's a double click it back from myself. I'm not really sure if this is proper application, or better than other moves. But it was at least fun! I felt like the rundown the clock shove on the turn was definitely the best move after the flop.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (4 handed) Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($104.70)
Hero ($112)
BB ($37)
UTG ($261.95)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7, 9.
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.5, BB calls $2.

Flop: ($6.50) 9, Q, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, BB raises to $8, Hero raises to $16, BB calls $4.

Turn: ($34.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets $22, BB calls $22 (All-In).

River: ($0) 6 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $78.50

(opp has QT)
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bode
Old 03-14-2008, 05:03 PM #49 (permalink)  
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 [ ]clicked it back
Quote:
eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
 
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cjs55
Old 03-14-2008, 05:06 PM #50 (permalink)  
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Damn, I was so excited to click it back and then I actually didn't do it right...
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