waiting for premium hands when short stacked

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...545&m_id=65556

New Helmuth article on how to play shortstacked:

Too many players today simply give up when they’re short-stacked. They go with low-percentage hands like my Adiamonds 5diamonds, my 4-4, or my A-8, instead of patiently waiting for a strong hand. Many times, my extra patience, combined with working my chips (a well- tim ed bluff or two), has enabled me to win poker tournaments when I had a severe short stack. ... So, don’t give up and gamble rashly just because you a severe short stack. Wait it out, and never, ever surrender!

He is advising against what is preached here on how to play with the short stack. I really don't know enough to be confident in my opinion, so what do you guys think? Is he wrong, or is it just a style preference? I doubt it's the former and the latter seems to simple an answer.

Thanks for the input.

If you're short-stacked, I really think you can find better things to do with your time than blinding/anteing down to nothing waiting for the "right" hand. Remember, the longer you wait, the fewer chips you're going to end up with if you do end up doubling up, and the less folding equity you have pushing your stack in. I just don't think he's right here. He's not considering the value that your time has when you could be winning money elsewhere.

Originally Posted by TylerK

If you're short-stacked, I really think you can find better things to do with your time than blinding/anteing down to nothing waiting for the "right" hand. Remember, the longer you wait, the fewer chips you're going to end up with if you do end up doubling up, and the less folding equity you have pushing your stack in. I just don't think he's right here. He's not considering the value that your time has when you could be winning money elsewhere.

If you're in a live tournament, that's not much value, since you'll probably just be driving home or hanging around to watch more of the tournament unfold. Online, sure.

I think a lot depends on how short-stacked you are, how many players are at the table, and what the blinds are. If you calculate you can survive several orbits before things get really desperate, and there are 8+ people playing at the table, that's a lot of hands you can sit through waiting on a good one. At the very least you can expect to pick up AJ or something and not have to go in on a prayer with A2.

Yea, I think that is talking about MTT's, not final tables or the end stages of a STT.
The more people still in, the longer you have to wait on a better hand. But either way, it's probably still a push or fold preflop situation.

For me, it depends where I'm at in relation to the BB. If I'm holding A8 or KT UTG and am short stacked, well, I'll probably throw AI. The way I see it, A8 or KT isn't *that* bad of a hand under the circumstances, and it's probably better than the next hand I'll receive.

If I'm on the button and receive A8 or KT, I probably play it differently. I look at those two cards and say, "You know what? I'll probably get two better hole cards in the next 4-6 hands. I'm going to hope that happens and push then instead of now." Or I may try to throw down hoping not to get called on the button to steal the blinds depending on who is to my left, or whatever.

I like the article, but I can't agree/disagree with it 100%. To me, "it all depends" on a lot of other stuff.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

For me, it depends where I'm at in relation to the BB. If I'm holding A8 or KT UTG and am short stacked, well, I'll probably throw AI. The way I see it, A8 or KT isn't *that* bad of a hand under the circumstances, and it's probably better than the next hand I'll receive.

If I'm on the button and receive A8 or KT, I probably play it differently. I look at those two cards and say, "You know what? I'll probably get two better hole cards in the next 4-6 hands. I'm going to hope that happens and push then instead of now." Or I may try to throw down hoping not to get called on the button to steal the blinds depending on who is to my left, or whatever.

Depends on how you define "short-stacked." If the BB is coming to you and you are so short that posting the blind is going to pot commit you, probably something like A8 is reasonable. If you're on the button and have an A8 with all folds to you, you shouldn't even think twice about pushing if you have 6BB or more...you absolutely need to add to your stack, and taking down the blinds in this situation is critical. Remember, when you're short but not ridiculously so, you still have some fold equity preflop and there's no better move you can make than to take advantage of it while you can.

You guys have missed it though. He said that he does this along with well timed blind steals.

he says "well timed bluffs" which i think is a little different.

There is short stacked as in having 4BB's and there is short stacked having 15 BB's

Both are to be playing very differently. So both ways, this site and Hellmuth's way, can be used.

Helmuth sounds like an arrogant bastard with that statement but hey, theres enough to it.
I think the word premium is a little decieving. Lets say you really are short stacked <10bbs. What sort of hand is pushable?
pps and any two face cards.
If this is what helmuth means then i agree. These hands stand up to anyone who casually calls your push defending their blinds.
I think what he might mean as giving up is pushing with 87 or suited conectors. I dont even play these cards with a large stack in mtt never mind short stacked. Thats what he might mean by giving up but thats me.
Oh and haha he busted out when he had a good hand.

That's how i play shortstacked, most people go with the "tilt" approach, playing too aggresivley and running into a better hand and then say " well i went as far as the cards could take me". As long as you can stay even after each rotation, there's no need to go all in on A9.

i think the term "short stack" is too broad. You really have to know what kind of M we're talking about, and what your goals for the tournament or SNG are.

If you are looking to move up the pay ladder in an MTT then yes, waiting for a better hand is probably going to get you farther most of the time, but not much, just to the point where you will blind out.

If you're looking to double up and get in contention for the win or final table, then waiting patiently won't do it.

Either way if you're in the "red zone" and there's so significant value in waiting a bit longer (moving up in pay) then I will push in position with any two or with any decent hand that i'm first in the pot with. harrington preaches this and says most pro's agree. It just makes sense, you aren't getting a premium hand every round and at somepoint you will be in the 2-3 rounds left range and have to push.

THIS THREAD IS REALLY OLD!! IT DID NOT NEED REVIVING.

chill out man, I just saw it today.

Originally Posted by ender555

chill out man, I just saw it today.

twas directed at CBAT, not you

Originally Posted by gabe

Originally Posted by ender555

chill out man, I just saw it today.

twas directed at CBAT, not you

Oh, my bad. I was in a MTT with about 15BB and I googled short stacked tips. And this was the first result. I didn't even look at the date.

Sorry about that.

lol :P