how can you play MMT and not go furking crazy?

I played one on Stars for first time ages($20 180)

Played for 3hrs(whilst playing other games obv) and bust out 2 from the bubble.

All in with AK on flop (A,x,x) get called with AQ...of course Q comes on river. then my remaining chips go in with K-10 against 5-2 and on the river comes a 2.

No money for 3 hours of careful, solid play. I nearly threw my computer out the window.

how the fuck can you guys do it without becoming serial killers?

--You have to accept the fact that you are going to finish out of the money in about 85% of the tournaments you play.

--You have to know that your big scores are going to more than make up for all the out of the money finishes.

--You have to be committed to playing a sizeable number of tournaments and constantly work on your game.

--You have to take a long term view and know that if you are a good player, you will be profitable in the long term.

--You have to be able to weather fairly sizeable downswings for all of the above reasons.

Originally Posted by WillburForce

how the fuck can you guys do it without becoming serial killers?

Who said I'm not? And where do they live?

Personally I think its harder to be successful in MTT's than cash games or stngoes....but I lots that arguement

Anyway...You aint seen nothing yet. Wait until youve played for 6 hours, there are only 7 players left, you have run your opponents through OPR and they are mostly donks..... and you are eying up the prize pay outs greedily







1st $5,500
2nd $3,700
3rd $2,200
4th $1,700
5th $1,400
6th $ 950
7th $ 700

You are 2nd in chips and the small stack goes all in on you from the button and you have KK in the BB. You call...he turns over As-6d, the flop is safe as houses, the turn a blank.... and then he spikes an Ace on the river.



You feel like youve just been punched in the stomach, before you can draw breath however the next hand comes and you now have JJ in the Small Blind. Its folded around to you and you push all in. The BB quickly calls and shows AK. There is an ace AND a king on the flop....two blanks on the next 2 streets and you are out in 7th for $700.

Now 45 seconds ago you thought you had the table under control and 3rd/$2,200 was a worst case scenario...with 2nd $3,700 highly likely. But with two good hands and perfectly legimate plays. i.e through no fault of your own... you are out

After a bit of ranting at your bad luck out the back garden...you come back and calculate your wins effect on your bankroll. After a few bad days early in the week you realise you are up about $150 for 5 solid days Mon-Fri. This isnt enough money to live on, and you wonder how you can possibly face getting up in the morning and playing poker again

In a mood as dark as a storm cloud, you glumly watch the other players compete like the donkeys they are, continuing to make the momentous mistakes you knew they would, and you KNOW you could be exploiting

And all the time you cant take you eyes off the payouts.....



1st $5,500
2nd $3,700
3rd $2,200
4th $1,700
5th $1,400
6th $ 950
7th $ 700 <---------you

1st $5,500
2nd $3,700
3rd $2,200
4th $1,700
5th $1,400
6th $ 950
7th $ 700 <----------YOU!

1st $5,500
2nd $3,700
3rd $2,200
4th $1,700
5th $1,400
6th $ 950
7th $ 700 <--------------YOU!!^%$#$@




This is a true story by the way, it literally happened to me, as well as a couple of other games with slightly different scenarios...before I broke through by winning the 6pm $18,000 GTD on Full Tilt

MTT's....will dead set fucking send you mad if you let them. But what cobere said makes perfect sense.

Your job as an MTT player is to get yourself in exactly that position as much as possible. ie deep with a reasonable stack size>Aim to finish 50th...not 950th

Mostly what happened up there ^^^ will prevail agian when you do this. Or your KK will run into AA, or you will make a bad mistake, Or one of the other various means poker has of removing all your chips

But if you get yourself in that position enough....one day good things will happem, YOU will have the AA vs a KK, YOU will take down AK with your AQ. And you will win that $5,000. And with a $26 buy in....that represents a lot of failures

quality post.




and also

I decided to play a tiny week satellite last night for fun, and qualified for the Stars sunday $100,000. But it only costs $11 to enter. So they need TEN THOUSAND entrants to cover the prize pool. I didn't realise tourneys even got this big! I'm not going to play in it - I don't have 15 hours to waste - but what's the deal?

The volume that is necessary to put in to even get a semi-decent grasp on how good of an MTT player you are is still mind boggling to me.

My main action as a poker player is MTTs, I have played on an almost nightly basis for the last 2 years... and I am still not getting in anywhere close to the volume that professional fulltime players are putting in.

chard is very right. I have a spreadsheet of MTT's that I've played over the last 2 years. I was floating around 0% ROI until I finally got a big win 6 months ago, which rocketed me to something like 80% ROI.

I've played over 300 tournies now, and I still have no idea what my average return on investment really is. It's still in the green though, so I must be doing something right.

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

quality post.

Jeah! I like your avatar. Ooh, the things I could do to her

I'm also playing low buy-in MTTs and you'll get hands like this...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG+1 (t2735)
Hero (t8815)
MP2 (t6755)
CO (t7720)
Button (t2355)
SB (t1870)
BB (t8495)
UTG (t2810)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, A.
2 folds, Hero raises to t450, 3 folds, SB calls t375, 1 fold.

Flop: (t1050) A, Q, 5 (2 players)
SB bets t1420 (All-In), Hero calls t1420.

Turn: (t3890) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3890) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3890

Results in white below:
Hero has Kc As (two pair, aces and queens).
SB has Qs Ts (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: SB wins t3890.

Brilliant reply by Trog. Laughed my arse off!

Anyway, I thought I'd chip in as i am now hooked (unbelievably) on MTTs. They never appealed. At all. And the chance of success was slim compared to SNGs or even cash games.

And then I've been playing the freerolls for a week or so and am hooked! And what Trog described happened to me last night: 1000 entrants, final table, final 3, in 1st place with 1/2 chips in play and nearly 3 times my nearest rival, busted in 2 hands when the hand was made and insufficient bets made for villain to continue searching for his draws. They became all ins which he spiked on the river each time and I was down to 3rd place, with 300,000. All I could think of was the injustice and my "missing" 500,000 and so I pushed with AQ suited and lost to pocket 5s.

And I took home $3.15 instead of $11.50! How will I cope without that wedge of cash?

The only comfort is that I negotiated 997 others, have got to the sharp end often, and so feel confident I can out play these same suckers in other small MTTs.

Anyway, as I am now hooked on MTTs, I have a question: though the pay day is many times more than your investment, the field is much more vast, and so how does this add up in terms of value/viability or what have you - over cash or SNGs for example?

Kinda like when short handed: less players should mean less chance of running into a monster. But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

I am now looking at small buy ins $1 - 4$ as top prize can be up to $1000 and I have $1 - $4 to spare. Having seen the quality of players that enter these, that prize money now appears well within my reach and I feel safe there won't be any sharks lurking

But would that be better spent on a $5 SNG where I can win $10 - $25?

Thx

Since we're sharing, here's my final table bubble hand from last night. This is why resteals are lots of fun. Also, the thing to remember is that your monster against his trash is not a lock to win every time. His T4s is 35% against my AJo. Meaning he still has a chance to win.

PokerStars Game #12926661434: Tournament #65593029, $11+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1500/3000) - 2007/10/29 - 20:43:47 (ET)
Table '65593029 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Florian1111 (33245 in chips)
Seat 2: KMM114 (13300 in chips)
Seat 6: Sprayed (38090 in chips)
Seat 8: Kid1822 (42660 in chips)
Seat 9: gidje (3585 in chips)
Florian1111: posts the ante 300
KMM114: posts the ante 300
Sprayed: posts the ante 300
Kid1822: posts the ante 300
gidje: posts the ante 300
Sprayed: posts small blind 1500
Kid1822: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sprayed [Ad Jc]
gidje: folds
Florian1111: folds
KMM114: folds
Sprayed: raises 6000 to 9000
Kid1822: raises 33360 to 42360 and is all-in
Sprayed: calls 28790 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [8s 8d 5s]
*** TURN *** [8s 8d 5s] [2d]
*** RIVER *** [8s 8d 5s 2d] [7d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sprayed: shows [Ad Jc] (a pair of Eights)
Kid1822: shows [Td 4d] (a flush, Ten high)
Kid1822 collected 77080 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 77080 | Rake 0
Board [8s 8d 5s 2d 7d]
Seat 1: Florian1111 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: KMM114 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Sprayed (small blind) showed [Ad Jc] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 8: Kid1822 (big blind) showed [Td 4d] and won (77080) with a flush, Ten high
Seat 9: gidje folded before Flop (didn't bet)

With regards to tourneys played this year for me, I have played almost 300 tourneys this year at Stars compared to Johnnybax who has played over 1200. <------ that's a lot of tourneys. Not to mention the thousand that he has played elsewhere.

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

Thunder you are priceless! What on earth does this mean?? Ace high is a monster 3-handed!

Originally Posted by biondino

[i]Thunder you are priceless! What on earth does this mean?? Ace high is a monster 3-handed!

You too, Binodino. I know full well the value of A high 3 handed. If you read my posts, you will see I mentioned this in one of my latter threads. I'd give you the thread but I owe you nothing.

What I meant is quite obvious - if you bother to read and then digest the context it was written in.

But as in the past, when you've misassumed, and continued to do so when I have corrected you (which should be enough) and even pointed to evidence to prove I didn't backtrack, you have done so again: failing to read properly and choosing to crazily infer. I never said ANYTHING about having ace high in short handed play.

Therefore, with all of the above, it will be futile to even explain AGAIN. There really is no point - or indeed any moral need - to explain myself either.

And instead of derailing threads, I reccommend you pm me, if your need is that great to continue miserpresenting.

Pwned?

/me goes to grab some nachos and a nice, comfy chair

Originally Posted by Thunder

Kinda like when short handed: less players should mean less chance of running into a monster. But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

have to say, i've read over your post a few times, and still have no idea what you mean by this........???

excellent

ROFL Great reply Thunder. I eagerly anticipate further developments...

Truly brilliant

haha TROG_DOR_NZ, that was quality

Thx guys,

I have no wish to continue this further. Truly pointless for the aforementioned reasons. When someone is telling you just what YOU mean and what YOU think then disagreeing with whatever you say; you are into a world that makes The Twilight Zone seem passe.

I used to be quick off the mark, and highly adept at this stuff but I want to leave that behind. Which is why I always thank people for their input, regardless of the quality/relevance and always apologise (not that I need to) if someone gets the wrong end of the stick.

I just want to talk/read/ask/devour all things poker.

Mate, I wish I could tell you what you mean.

Originally Posted by Thunder

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

Okay, I solemnly promise that if you explain this sentence - because it seems no-one here understands it - I will never be snarky with you again (though I will continue to respond in a considerate manner to your posts if I may).

Okay, so one time I was chipleader going into the final three. I ran into aces 3 times (in under 20 hands), I had AQs, AKo, AKs, and ended up busting in 3rd. Maybe that's what thunder is saying?

I guess he could be saying "heh, doesn't it seem like you run into aces more than you should shorthanded", but it sounded to me like there was maths behind his comment rather than superstition? Anyway, I don't want to second guess him, I'll wait for his response.

I'll reply as long as you stop misinterpreting - like you did in this thread.

Jack, much better woman inyour avatar than yesterday.

Please don't get high and mighty - I don't do it bloody-mindedly, but you occasionally make comments that are hard to fathom. This one I *still* don't get and I have been genuinely trying to figure out what you mean.

High and mighty.

Yet another random interpretation of a simple, innocuous statement.

And after everything, I have a bloody right to be high and mighty. Not that I am.

I may make occasional comments that are hard to fathom but the majority of your comments and actions have been as I've described above - with nothing to do with being hard to understand as I've even explained myself and yet you've preferred to carry on regardless.

Do we have a deal?

someone needs to find some thicker skin

i think its an astrological incompatibility


or they are about to get married




weeeeeeeeeeee!!!! some internetz dramah!!!!

all we need now is for gabe to take bets. I take the underdog for $10

stop feeding the trolls people

Am I a troll or is he?

I'll reply as long as you stop misinterpreting

Bearing in mind I said baldly that I don't TRY to misinterpret you, can't you take the poker (no pun intended) out of your arse and just answer the question? I don't see any point in discussing this privately because I can't imagine you're going to be any more reasonable there. So:

Originally Posted by Thunder

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

What does this mean? It's not just me who wants to know, so don't use the "I'm not talking to you, you're horrid" excuse.

it's too deep obv bio

"This deck does have a lot of fives in it"
- Gus Hanson

Originally Posted by biondino

Bearing in mind I said baldly that I don't TRY to misinterpret you, can't you take the poker (no pun intended) out of your arse and just answer the question? I don't see any point in discussing this privately because I can't imagine you're going to be any more reasonable there.

LOL. I'm actually the one being reasonable. I put up with all your sarcy remarks and purposeful misrepresentations (and they were purposeful because I explained and you still ignored!) and only slapped you down when you entered this thread - repeating your actions for the 100th time. And I still say all will be cool if you just think twice before jumping in.

But yet again, you stick to form. This is a hoot!

First I am supposedly unreasonable and then you ignore my clear as day invite to pm me by declaring it would be pointless.

Oh, the irony!

You say I have a poker in my arse. How? As said, it was a simple offer. All you had to do was accept. Oh I know, you're going off on one. Again. And not just the once either. Oh no:

so don't use the "I'm not talking to you, you're horrid" excuse.

Where oh where did I say I wasn't talking to you and/because you're horrid? Where was it even implied? In fact, once again, there is definitive evidence (by me) to the contrary: I have a bloody right to be high and mighty. Not that I am.

And if I wasn't talking to you - and if I am being unreasonable - then why did I reply to your analysis of my all in move in my other MTT thread?

So not once in this thread have you seen what isn't there with your ace high is a monster comment but three times in your above post.

That is not chance. Truly, that is skill.

And so you drag it out to this - when all you had to do was agree not to misassume and accept that you have ignored my explanations when given.

And all you had to do was pm me instead but oh no, you derail the thread even more.

Believe me, the whole meaning of my comment about the aces is not worth all this. Let it drop.

And BTW, you say you don't misassume on purpose but with ALL the evidence contained within, you are definitely doing something seriously not right.

Thunder, you made the statement, "But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation." Bio asked you what it meant. You refused to explain and told him he should go search for your other threads to figure it out. Then willbur, badgers, and jack all say that they don't know what you mean. Then bio asks you (without an attitude) again what your statement means. You refuse to explain yourself. Bio tells you again that he doesn't understand. You then say that you've explained yourself plenty and there's no reason for anyone to be acting like they don't understand. You then repeat 2 more times that you've explained yourself. WHERE'S THE EXPLANATION? IT'S NOT JUST BIONDINO! NOBODY UNDERSTANDS YOU STILL! Here's the timeline in case you forgot...

Original Statement

Originally Posted by Thunder

But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

Bio asks what it means

Originally Posted by biondino

What on earth does this mean??

Thunder does not explain

Originally Posted by Thunder

If you read my posts, you will see I mentioned this in one of my latter threads. I'd give you the thread but I owe you nothing.

What I meant is quite obvious - if you bother to read and then digest the context it was written in....I never said ANYTHING about having ace high in short handed play.

Willbur doesn't know what it means

Originally Posted by WillburForce

have to say, i've read over your post a few times, and still have no idea what you mean by this........???

Badgers doesn't know what it means

Originally Posted by badgers

Mate, I wish I could tell you what you mean.

Jack doesn't know what it means

Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer

Okay, so one time I was chipleader going into the final three. I ran into aces 3 times (in under 20 hands), I had AQs, AKo, AKs, and ended up busting in 3rd. Maybe that's what thunder is saying?

Bio asks again what it means

Originally Posted by biondino

Originally Posted by Thunder

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

Okay, I solemnly promise that if you explain this sentence - because it seems no-one here understands it - I will never be snarky with you again (though I will continue to respond in a considerate manner to your posts if I may).

Thunder doesn't explain

Originally Posted by Thunder

I'll reply as long as you stop misinterpreting - like you did in this thread.

Thunder says he has explained

Originally Posted by Thunder

the majority of your comments and actions have been as I've described above - with nothing to do with being hard to understand as I've even explained myself and yet you've preferred to carry on regardless.

Thunder says he has explained 2 more times

Originally Posted by Thunder

I put up with all your sarcy remarks and purposeful misrepresentations (and they were purposeful because I explained and you still ignored!)...
all you had to do was agree not to misassume and accept that you have ignored my explanations when given.

Originally Posted by Thunder

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

Damn... after reading this entire thread I was hoping he would explain this in more detail.

THIS THREAD ROCKS

Thunder Cats Ho!

and to think i started this thread as a bad beat moan.....

So, anyone else confused?

LOL Thunder, say whatever you like to me - I have been making as many helpful comments to try and sort out your woeful misunderstanding of a whole host of poker issues as I have dumb comments about you being unbelievably thin-skinned and uppity, but you're now focusing on some kind of meaningless defence of your personal honour AND NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION. I am sorry to come across all Jeremy Paxman but what on earth do you mean by your comment?

Originally Posted by Thunder

But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

Just for reference, if you explain something, but you get it wrong, then it doesn't count as an explanation. At this point, helpful people try to sort out the confusion - they are providing an explanation. You are allowed to update your ideas on hearing these explanations - hell, it might even make you better at poker.

I suppose we could always do the honourable thing and play poker against each other and see who has the best grasp on the game. I'm no pro but I'm a five-figure winner at low stakes, I've got well over 1/4 of a million hands behind me - oh, and 2787 posts on FTR and yet I haven't been hounded out by an angry mob yet for being all the things you accuse me of being.

I was, and am, entirely prepared to lay off you, but I can't promise not to respond to the comments you make about poker strategy. Such as:

Originally Posted by Thunder

But on the other hand, 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

Originally Posted by Thunder

4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them. Chicken and egg kinda situation.

Very true indeed.

So who is the chicken, and who is the egg?

Are you trying to say that the first person who is dealt an ace is the egg, or the first person to act is the egg. Maybe you think that they are the chicken in this scenario. And perhaps, being a chicken, you peck on the eggs (one of the 4 aces) and crack them (cracking aces). If we are dealt two aces, are we now chickens inside the egg?

Good post, thunder. Keep em coming.

i think thunder is done with us

c'mon Thunder give us the answer. everyday i look into this thread for the next installment.

your not worried you'll end up with egg (hahahahah i said egg guffaw) on your face are you?

Originally Posted by WillburForce

your not worried you'll end up with chicken on your face are you?

FYP

Jishu I rofled.

I miss Thunder

bump, never did hear what that statement meant...

A blast from the past.

Thunder was just answering a question I had earlier,when I asked.



If a Spaceship landed in my backyard,how many chocolate chip pancakes would it take to cover my dog house?

Originally Posted by Thunder

none,because 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

Originally Posted by mrhappy333

Thunder was just answering a question I had earlier,when I asked.



If a Spaceship landed in my backyard,how many chocolate chip pancakes would it take to cover my dog house?

Originally Posted by Thunder

none,because 4 aces goes round 3 people more than 10 and so maybe more likely you will run into them

I loled.

You guys!

i still dont fucking get it AT ALL. this is starting to piss me off

Man have you guys seen Negranue's hair?!11

10 aces goes round 5 people more than 12, negreanus hair is awesome and everyone knows that hellmuth always sucked.

i eated a cherry once

Originally Posted by pantherhound

10 aces goes round 5 people more than 12, negreanus hair is awesome and everyone knows that hellmuth always sucked.

yeah but Hellmuth has 6 more bracelets than 5