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kingnat
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01-29-2008, 12:59 PM
Post subject: How tight is too tight?
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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I'd like to throw out a somewhat vague question about tightness. I'm constantly trying to morph my game into one that is raising/3betting a significant amount preflop... I see many winning players (renton, setzy, spoonitnow) running around 15/13 or 13/11, somewhere in there. I feel like this is giving my game a great deal of variance, and I'm still running more like 15/9 or so.
My question is how tight can a person run and still achieve breakeven poker (minus the bonuses). Is 9/7 acceptable?... Will regulars fuggin' pwn this guy?
Along with this comes a question about what range are you flat calling?? Obviously running PFR so close to VP$P... there are precious few hands that are being flat called. Normally I wouldn't ask for such precious information.. but since this only accounts for 2% of hands... I'm hoping it won't be too difficult to respond.
thanks
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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i run a little tighter than most of the full ring regs on this site, about 12/9/3 but I'm currently beating 100nl on FTP for about 3.5ptbb/100. I remember reading it somewhere on this site but preflop stats are just a preference, all the crucial decisions come on the later streets. I don't have any experience running 9/7 but if you correctly use your extremely tight image in the correct spots, and can play well postflop, im sure you can beat most regs at the lower midstakes. My flat calling range is essentially only pocket pairs and the occasional sc IP. I will also sometimes just flat AK or AQ against a relatively tight EP raiser.
I've also been thinking about good spots to 3 bet light pre, as i think it could be extremely profitable in games where 3 betting is very well respected, but i usually just do it against CO or button raises. this is an area of my game i need to work on so i would be interested in hearing how you are attempting to morph your game.
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ndultimate.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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If you're beating the game then you're probably fine to be honest, but opening up in the right places could probably help your win-rate. After all, we're always trying to improve our skill and money-making ability.
I'd be very interested in knowing what your attempt to steal % is, and I'll probably reply with ramblings to deal with that if [when] you post it. I don't feel like I can appropriately address the VP$IP/PFR issue without knowing that piece of information.
Pre-flop I generally flat call in position with SCs and PPs according to the 5/10 rule: if it's less than 5% of the effective stack, I almost always call, and if it's more than 10% of the effective stack, I almost always fold. If it's between 5-10%, then that's a judgment call. Occasionally against a loose MP raise I'll call in position with something like KQs or AJs that I don't think is strong enough for a 3-bet but that I think is still profitable.
The vague explanation for when I 3-bet preflop is when I'm in position and I think my hand is better than half or so of the raiser's range. If you want to look for spots to start opening up your 3-betting, look to 3-bet AQ in LP against MP/LP raises from moderate to loose players. Then you can go from there and figure it out.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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You're too tight if:
You are not calling with proper pot odds or implied odds
You routinely fold the best hand
You never get caught bluffing
You get made fun of by the rest of the table
Your bf can't get his dick in
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,336
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BankItDrew
You get made fun of by the rest of the table
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Happens all of the time in live games. People vastly under-estimate my ranges and bluff frequency because I refuse to loosen up past a certain point.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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hey, i cant run 12/9 for the life of me. any tighter than that and i may shoot myself for boredom's sake. these styles are killing poker, imo, by all the AK waiting for AQ battles.
i dont advocate 30/20 poker either. but, damn. spew a little. it helps your post flop skills if you are paying attention.
and, btw, good one, drew. who is your bf anyway...and does he need an oil can?
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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In the mornings when I'm up early, the 200nl tables are full of the 12/8 types that you can steal from over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. It's fun.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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PapalRage
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Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
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i wasn't advocating 12/9 as ideal (like there are magic perfect preflop stats), but it certainly can be a winning style. even at 100nl there are so many opps who dont have a clue about anything except their cards, and against the regs who somewhat pay attention, its not too hard to use your image to your advantage and steal some nice pots. just throwing it out there that you can still run tight and beat games. i think most if not all of us would agree that its really all about postflop skills, and if you can't make good marginal postflop decisions, playing a little tighter pre might make those decisions a whole lot easier.
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ndultimate.
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Chopper
hey, i cant run 12/9 for the life of me. any tighter than that and i may shoot myself for boredom's sake. these styles are killing poker, imo, by all the AK waiting for AQ battles.
i dont advocate 30/20 poker either. but, damn. spew a little. it helps your post flop skills if you are paying attention.
and, btw, good one, drew. who is your bf anyway...and does he need an oil can?
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ty for saying this
this isn't poker imo, waaaaaaaaaaaaay too risk averse
maybe taking your br and investing in a mutual fund somewhere is a better idea than running like this
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by PapalRage
i wasn't advocating 12/9 as ideal (like there are magic perfect preflop stats), but it certainly can be a winning style. even at 100nl there are so many opps who dont have a clue about anything except their cards, and against the regs who somewhat pay attention, its not too hard to use your image to your advantage and steal some nice pots. just throwing it out there that you can still run tight and beat games. i think most if not all of us would agree that its really all about postflop skills, and if you can't make good marginal postflop decisions, playing a little tighter pre might make those decisions a whole lot easier.
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Getting better post-flop is more +EV though.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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My % to steal blinds is 20.4%... and my stats are roughly 15/8.
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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I run anywhere between 10/5 and 35/25.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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i play tight live games like baby turtle s and rarely steal blinds coz it's multi-way pot all the time in every single hand :P Honestly, donks at casino don't really care about my tight image and still pay off huge with worse hands always. :P .As for online, i play far more aggressively like 17/ 11, my attention to steal% up to 30%.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
My % to steal blinds is 20.4%... and my stats are roughly 15/8.
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I would suggest you steal more and perhaps tighten up in EP, but I'd need your position stats to know for sure on the second part there.
You could probably get up to 15/10 or 15/11 just by stealing more. It sounds like a big adjustment but it's not really. Open raise more suited connectors, unsuited connectors 54 and up, suited 1-gappers, suited aces, suited kings K7 and up or so.
Stealing a little more will help your image as a nit and probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.
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That line alone gave me wood.
I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...)
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.
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That line alone gave me wood.
I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...) |
Man there's nothing to be embarrassed about, although I know the feeling. One of the biggest ways to find spots to explore in your game is by comparing PT stats and letting people discuss them.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
Quote:
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Originally Posted by kingnat
Quote:
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Originally Posted by spoonitnow
...probably raise your win-rate 1 ptbb/100 or more.
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That line alone gave me wood.
I'll post some positional stats soon (however embarrassing that they might be...) |
Man there's nothing to be embarrassed about, although I know the feeling. One of the biggest ways to find spots to explore in your game is by comparing PT stats and letting people discuss them. |
agreed agreed agreed.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Is it too tight to fold a full boat on the river? Just curious...
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Pythonic
Is it too tight to fold a full boat on the river? Just curious...
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In an attempt to not be like "What the fuck kind of question is this," the question isn't really about being tight. Sometimes it's correct to fold a full house on the river.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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sometimes it may be correct to fold a fh on the flop too.
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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mrhappy333
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hartford, CT
Posts: 1,078
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double post
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3 3 3 I'm only half evil.
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