Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I'm 2 minutes in and this fills my heart with sadness.

edit HAHAHAAHA how do I link to a specific time in a youtube video? @3:20

Originally Posted by surviva316

i'm so disappointed that that lady in yellow talking about people infringing on her rights wasn't on the main video. that was so so so so win.

asking why i believe what i believe makes me mad, and disagreeing with me makes me mad grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Originally Posted by runrrunrstr8

I might be going against the grain here but why the hell would I or any of us want to pay for other people's healthcare, welfare, public housing, food stamps, farm subsidy, bank bailout, mortgage modification, bridge to nowhere, etc.

If I want to donate to a charity I'll write a check, I don't need the government raking my fking paychecks to help people I don't know/ care about.
Ya dig? It's not nice or compassionate if you're spending other people's money.

Originally Posted by jyms

One of the best measures for having universal healthcare is to ask people in country's that have it if they would give it up. Don't ask the rich about anything, ask the middle classes. I come form upper middle class and nobody would want the health care stopped. Your system would turn middle class people poor with one sick child or parent. I think of it as insurance. If I never need it then good, but I want to be covered for that untimely accident.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

But America isn't the land of the middle-class. It's the land of entrepreneurs. Everyone here will tell you, if you have an idea for a business, you go for it. The belief is that anyone can be rich; there are only a few things getting in our way and most of those few things are the gov't and taxes.

If you try to start up a business, State and Federal are already combing you down for all the money they can get, everyone who dreams big is put off by those thoughts. "So I'm 1 week into a business that will likely fail 8/10 times and I'm teetering on the edge because I need to feed some poor people? If they can't get jobs, it's because we can't employ them!"

That's why we're so adverse to Socialism, because accepting taxes so high is accepting that a central pillar of the American Dream has crumbled. We aren't being run by a dark cabal of the rich, we all believe we're one idea away from being rich and we want to make sure the road is as clear as possible for when it comes.

Yes, it's awesome that being born Canadian guarantees you a certain standard for living, but we're not Canadian, we're American. And being born American means rolling the dice and shooting from the hip, Cowboy-style.

Not my opinion on the matter, just my understanding of things.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Because it makes you wealthier. Your financial return on investment in an economy that serves the people is greater than one that doesn't. Not to mention your social 'return on investment' is astronomically improved in a society that provides for its people. All this garbage about "it's my money blah blah why should I be forced to blah blah" is nothing but propaganda hogwash perpetuated by the effective royal class who are lucky to be carried on the shoulders of the rest of the world. Deservedness is largely a false perception, and when it comes face to face with real world shit like economics, it falls flat

The next time you see a homeless bum on the street who lives on welfare, think to yourself that he has contributed more to society than the average Wall Street banker. And here's the crazy part, it's true. The return on the entire economy by this bum simply using food stamps is SUBSTANTIALLY higher than the mega mega mega mega wealthy guy who manipulates numbers and robs the economy of millions that he sucks out of the economy.

You know the supposed 5-6 trillion $ hole we're in right now? Well, ALL of that is entirely due to the people who 'earned' the most money and felt they didn't have to pay any of it back, and instead sucked it out of the economy. They send trillions overseas, trillions in their bank accounts earning interest, and trillions stolen from a squeezed labor force. The amount of money that the American taxpayers has paid in corporate welfare of the last two years is immensely higher than the amount of poor welfare we've paid over the entire history of our nation. In fact, the difference is so vast that they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. Yet people are still raving against the Welfare Cadillac Queen fairy tale while unwittingly dropping off their debit cards at the nearest mansion. Don't be fooled when the source of the talking points that rail against social safety nets are the people who benefit the most from those safety nets not existing.

The way human society works is that the vast majority of the time, the people who do the least, make the most, and the people who do the most, make the least. Social safety nets and public programs are the one and only thing that keep you and me and everybody we know out of serfdom. When everybody gets together and pays for the basic needs of everybody else, none of us get left behind and we all move forward as a unit. Look to the most heavily taxed nations in the world and see that the people who live there are much better off. Then look to the lowest taxed nations and find that everybody except the ruling powers are living in shit

If I come off as curt or mean, I don't mean to be

Originally Posted by wufwugy

The funny thing is that middle class taxes wouldn't need to be that much higher, if at all, in order to provide free health care, free advanced education, etc. There's more than enough revenue from the high end of income, capital gains, and estate for progressive taxes to cover. In fact, we could probably drop income, sales, property taxes focused on the middle class if only we used the correct policy on the high end.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

This could be somewhat true, but it depends on your definition on what "contributed to society means." In your definition, it's clearly true. But in an absolute definition its pretty clearly false. How much money you make is directly correlated to the amount of value you provide to the people around you. The problem is people value pretty worthless and fucked up shit.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I don't understand why everyone hates risk in this world. We risk our lives every day by just sitting in bed. The risk of dying or losing your job or your business failing is present everywhere. For me, the goal isn't to eliminate risk. There's a great quote from the Bhagavad Gita that sums up my point. Krishna says to Arjuna "You are responsible for action alone, never of its fruits." Results are often uncontrollable, but we must live to act in an "enlightened" manner. At least, that's what I believe personally.

Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Danny wins this thread.

And although half the tea party seems like total idiots, I still think they are a good move for the republican party away from this ridiculous religious movement that went against all that a conservative stood for.

Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

So you're saying the 1% richest people in the world should pay for everything but also have essentially no say in how that money is used? While the others pay for jack shit and get many of the benefits? Sounds good to me, rich people suck.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I understand positive outcomes that can come from the changes you are talking about. To me, the most important thing in the world has nothing to do with positive outcomes, although positive outcomes can be the result of right action.

The most important thing to me is evolution, evolution of myself and the human race. I understand this is vague, but I mean a lot of things. Improve our technology, our strength, our minds, and our decision making are some of the main things that fall under this category.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Give me an example in a free market where someone has earned a lot of money, but has done so without the voluntary exchange of money for a good or service.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Go to the other extreme where the entire waste disposal labor force goes on strike. Imagine how much we'd all be clamoring to make it worth their while to keep working. Likewise, if Goldman Sachs went on strike I'd rejoice and tell them to go fuck themselves off a cliff

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Votes or donations to Republicans, purchasing anything from Walmart, buying a gun, driving a car that runs on oil, Bernie Madoff....

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

First off, explain how any of the things you mentioned are examples of people getting rich without the voluntary exchange of a good or service.

Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

None of these are examples. In all cases people voluntarily exchange money for a good or service. Bernie Madoff included...

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Yes, the trash truck driver provides less value than Microsoft. I'm assuming your saying the trash truck driver may be more of a necessity than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean he's more valuable. The reason trash truck drivers aren't paid as much is because there is labor competition.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I sorta side stepped that in order to address the bigger picture and because it's a straw man. The only time you can't find some level of voluntary exchange for something else is when it's completely forced, but this doesn't mean that we live in a force vs choice dichotomy or anything. There's much more going on

I'm not sure what you mean by this. So your saying there isn't an example but its irrelevant because there's much more going on? Like what?


Actually, public sector regulation against monopolized private abuse is pretty much the final respite.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I said.

Yes, public sector attention to transparency is very important, but sadly, it's way too important for private industry as well as governmental corruption to keep this away, and that's why it hasn't happened nor will it any time soon.

I disagree, there is tons of transparency. Is there something about Wal-mart for example that damns them that the public couldn't find out about? Information transparency doesn't have to be done publicly either, I would gladly pay, and it would likely be cheap, to get information on business I buy goods from.


I'm not sure where you're getting this information. US regulation and taxes and 'intervention' into business are substantially lower than they have ever been, and we know for demonstrable fact that things are much better with increased regulation etc

I don't really care if its lower or higher than the past. There is still tons of taxes, control, and regulation. And show me the demonstrable facts.


I've been trying to explain this. Economics is not an open system, there is only a finite amount of wealth at any given time, and the entire systems runs based on how wealth flows. Because wealth naturally flows up, artificial redistribution is necessary for the health of the non-upper class and overall economy. This is very well documented in economic history. It's just that we don't believe it because the propaganda machines incessantly spew lies about how we need supply side trickle down, they're the job creators, and other false garbage. The evidence could not be more clear that our problems are due to too much money and power at the top, yet apparently that doesn't stop the general public from imagining that's not the problem but the solution

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

I'm not sure what you mean by this. So your saying there isn't an example but its irrelevant because there's much more going on? Like what?

Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Danny wins this thread.

And although half the tea party seems like total idiots, I still think they are a good move for the republican party away from this ridiculous religious movement that went against all that a conservative stood for.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Also, there is absolutely no way there is definitive proof that "our problems" are due to too much money at the top. Nor is there definitive proof that "our problems" are due to too much government intervention. There are insane amounts of variables that determine the state of the world today. To say that we know factually the strength of each variable is insane.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Also, why do you value the middle class over everyone else?

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Yes, the trash truck driver provides less value than Microsoft. I'm assuming your saying the trash truck driver may be more of a necessity than Microsoft, but that doesn't mean he's more valuable.