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BankItDrew
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02-13-2008, 01:27 AM
Post subject: Pre-nuptial Agreements
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Opinions please.
A friend of mine and his fiancee broke up over the weekend because of a disagreement with a prenuptial. So I started wondering whether or not it would be right for me.
Advice, opinions, recommendations are all welcome.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I think that anyone who has a problem with a prenuptial agreement actually has problems with 1) being a leeching whore, and/or 2) insecurity. Seriously, why the fuck wouldn't a sensible human being get one?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Reasons not to get a prenup:
1) it assumes the marriage will fail,
2) it presumes that what one spouse does is more important than what the other one does
3) even if you get one it still might not hold up if you get divorced
4) you don't have any assets to bring into the marriage to begin with (this was my case)
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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unless one of them is incredibly more wealthy than the other and/or they have only been together a very short time then its kinda pointless.
also what char said.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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If either of you are pretty well off, it's reasonable. If both parties are pretty independent it still makes sense to sort out who had what.
Yet another reason I think the way people enter into these things is a set-up for failure.
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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good luck with the relationship
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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I'm kinda surprised by the majority saying no. I'm obviously young and stupid, but you never know what could happen shouldn't you hedge yourself against an unpredictable future?
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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I wouldn't get married if I thought there was a need for a pre nup
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.
I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.
I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.
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Do you live in Utah by any chance?
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Reasons to get a prenup:
1) you both bring lots of assets into the marriage that you want as yours if the marriage were to fall apart
2) it's practical - the majority of marriages end up in divorce, preparing for that doesn't mean you want it to happen, just that you realize it's a possibility
3) if you do get divorce it makes the legal hassle more manageable because you already have figured all or most of it out.
4) wtf - I ain't givin' that ho my shit.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Reasons to get a prenup:
2) it's practical - the majority of marriages end up in divorce, preparing for that doesn't mean you want it to happen, just that you realize it's a possibility
3) if you do get divorce it makes the legal hassle more manageable because you already have figured all or most of it out.
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I'm a big fan of 2 and 3.... the EV for not having to pay excessive lawyer fees makes it worthwhile... it might be unromantic... who cares it's fucking math.
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.
I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.
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Do you live in Utah by any chance? |
Lol I thought the exact same thing the first time I read it too... then I read it a second time.
I voted for yes, btw...
I've seen many divorces hit the shitty fan when the cases go to court for the whole asset distribution thing, and shit really did hit the fan. The guy I'm talking about wanted a prenupt because of what his dad went through with his ex-wife, it went really bad.
I can't think of any good reasons to not get one, and I know most of you are wondering wtf because you came up with reasons. "set yourself up for failure" is not a good reason to not get one. That's like saying "don't get the warranty because you won't be careful with it." Or "why wear a seatbelt? if you do, you won't be careful driving." I could go on but I think you get my point.
I think the point made about it just being another legal document, like a will or the marriage agreement, is a good one too.
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kingnat
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 827
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I don't NEEED a parachute to jump out of the plane... I got FUCKING LIFE INSURANCE MAN!!!!
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So you click their picture and then you get their money?
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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i voted yes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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it's against my beliefs to get one and i hope i never get asked to get one because that would mean i failed to create a trusting relationship.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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dont get one
the fear will hold you together
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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depends 100 % on the situation, any other answer seems naive. If you're a millionaire on marriage 4, get a pre nup. I would never have considered one with my wife.
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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don't bother. Most people here don't have the kind of money required to protect anyway. Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway. If you win the WSOP after getting married, she gets half, since she was "at your side" while you were there, and most women without the family background of big money, never understand the reasoning.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.
I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.
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Do you live in Utah by any chance? |
I don't get the confusion. My fiance and I have been living together for about 4 years now, and everything that we have (bills, money, furniture, car) is all stuff that we have both contributed to.
I just saw it now. you must have missed that first 'n' in there.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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ProZachNation
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Over there!
Posts: 801
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Option 3. Murder?
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Originally Posted by mrhappy333
I didn't think its Bold to bang some chick with my bro. but i guess so... thats +EV in my book.
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shazbox
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
Posts: 170
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I read a study that said 100% of couples they asked acknowledged that over 50% of marriages fail, yet 90% of them said the chance of their marriage failing was 0%.
People are dumb.
But ya, if you don't have a lot of shit already there is no point.
I could get a prenup, but it would cost more to get it written up by a person capable than I am worth, so no point.
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway.
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Incorrect. A lot of this will depend on what state you are in, but I am in CA and I will treat this as good bar exam practice.
CA is a community property state. This means that all assets acquired during marriage are presumptively community property and are divided 50/50 upon divorce. Any property or asset owned by either spouse before marriage or acquired during marriage through gift or devise (inheritance) is presumptively separate property and the other spouse gets no part of it upon divorce.
However everything above is simply a presumption. CA has always allowed spouses to opt-out of the statutory presumptions through valid, written agreements that are signed by both spouses. You can change the status of particular property (e.g. I want to make the vacation cottage I own pre-marriage into community property) or you can change the status of all acquisitions (e.g. my salary is going to be my separate property and your salary will be yours).
You can also change the status prior to marriage (a prenup) or during the marriage (a transmutation).
There are only 2 defenses to the enforcement of a prenup: 1) it was not signed voluntarily; and 2) it is unconscionable (i.e. super duper unfair).
To be voluntarily signed the spouse must: 1) have been represented by independent counsel when the prenup was signed or fully informed in writing regarding exactly what rights s/he was giving up by entering the prenup, and 2) have been given a 7 day cooling off period to sign the prenup.
To make a valid transmutation, the agreement needs to be in writing, signed by the spouse who is giving up an interest in the property, and expressly state that a change in ownership is being made (but you don't need independent counsel).
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bigred
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PROFESSIONAL TROLL
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Nest of Douchebags
Posts: 2,184
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Marriage is an outdated institution anyway. Let's evolve.
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LOL OPERATIONS
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigred
Marriage is an outdated institution anyway. Let's evolve.
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Yes thats what I always tell my students.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by chardrian
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Anything you do while married cannot be placed in the prenup anyway, they are only for pre marriage assets anyway.
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Incorrect. A lot of this will depend on what state you are in, but I am in CA and I will treat this as good bar exam practice.
CA is a community property state. This means that all assets acquired during marriage are presumptively community property and are divided 50/50 upon divorce. Any property or asset owned by either spouse before marriage or acquired during marriage through gift or devise (inheritance) is presumptively separate property and the other spouse gets no part of it upon divorce.
However everything above is simply a presumption. CA has always allowed spouses to opt-out of the statutory presumptions through valid, written agreements that are signed by both spouses. You can change the status of particular property (e.g. I want to make the vacation cottage I own pre-marriage into community property) or you can change the status of all acquisitions (e.g. my salary is going to be my separate property and your salary will be yours).
You can also change the status prior to marriage (a prenup) or during the marriage (a transmutation).
There are only 2 defenses to the enforcement of a prenup: 1) it was not signed voluntarily; and 2) it is unconscionable (i.e. super duper unfair).
To be voluntarily signed the spouse must: 1) have been represented by independent counsel when the prenup was signed or fully informed in writing regarding exactly what rights s/he was giving up by entering the prenup, and 2) have been given a 7 day cooling off period to sign the prenup.
To make a valid transmutation, the agreement needs to be in writing, signed by the spouse who is giving up an interest in the property, and expressly state that a change in ownership is being made (but you don't need independent counsel). |
I thought that is basically what I said. All I was saying is, you can't worry about anything you have or earn while married in a prenup because you will be signing the forms before you are married. Not many women, nor men, would sign a prenup stating anything I earn after we get married is mine. Basically we are only concerning ourselves for what we have at this time, and who here has enough to worry about. Even if you have $100K in the bank, what the hell is $50K going to be worth after 20 years of marriage? Anything that happens after would need to be renegotiated, but who in their right mind would renegotiate when there is something to lose?
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chardrian
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I rarely,if ever, get pms
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 4,524
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Actually I think the major point of most prenups is generally to change the allocation of salary (or at least a percentage of it) from community to separate property.
So the first question to be answered in terms of whether or not one should get a prenup is why do you want one?
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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I think it's retarded to hell to associate the amount of trust in a relationship to whether or not you should get a pre-nup. 1. If you didn't trust the bitch, there would be no relationship, and 2. Of course you'll trust her UNTIL she tries to take off with half of your shit.
Almost every single person I've ever known that has went through a divorce and didn't have a pre-nup expressed at some point that they wish they'd had one.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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if you have lots of assets, absolutely 100% yes.
I strongly disagree with the notion that if you have a pre-nup, you're going into the relationship/marriage with the expectation that it's going to fail. Instead, you just have the intelligence to realize that there's a possibility (and a strong one at that, judging by the current divorce rate) that things won't go as planned in the future. It happens... there's no reason to destroy a lifetime of hard work and saving because you thought you were so madly in love that nothing could possibly happen. looooool
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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errr just read the actual poll.. if you're going into the thing with near equal income and assets, there's really no reason to.
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spoonitnow
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
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stfu lukie nobody asked you
oh wait they did nm
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
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Pythonic
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In S-mart Swallowing Your Soul!
Posts: 586
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Prenups are only good for the super rich. Unless you have 1 million sitting in a bank account they are most likely not needed. Good luck for those trying to find a fiancee who will sign a prenup, they will laugh their asses off and leave in a jiffy.
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Never bet on a white man in the heavyweight division!
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meeloche
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,131
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
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Originally Posted by meeloche
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
If I had money I would consider one. I don't, so it's not an issue. Also, my finances are already so intertwined that it would be too late anyways.
I think they just make good sense. Both marriage and pre-nups are just legal arrangements anyways, so what's the difference.
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Do you live in Utah by any chance? |
I don't get the confusion. My fiance and I have been living together for about 4 years now, and everything that we have (bills, money, furniture, car) is all stuff that we have both contributed to.
I just saw it now. you must have missed that first 'n' in there. |
lol my bad
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Jack Sawyer
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
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Quote:
Marriage
He married Cynthia Scurtis, a psychology professor, on November 2, 2002. The couple's first child, Natasha Alexander, was born on November 18, 2004. On April 21, 2008, Cynthia gave birth to their second child, Ella Alexander,[44] in Miami, Florida.
On May 27, 2007, Rodriguez was spotted at a Toronto strip club with a blonde woman, later identified as Joslyn Noel Morse, an exotic dancer with Scores Las Vegas who was featured in Playboy's 2001 magazine "Playboy's Casting Calls."[45] The New York Post ran a picture on May 30, 2007.
Divorce
On July 2, 2008, the New York Daily News reported that Rodriguez and his wife had separated, after having "problems" for the past three months, since the birth of their second daughter.[46] This comes together with rumors published in Us Weekly magazine, about a possible affair between Rodriguez and pop singer Madonna,[47] claims Madonna later denied.[48]
ESPN reported that Cynthia Rodriguez filed for divorce on July 7, 2008, citing "emotional abandonment" and marital infidelity by her husband. Even though Mrs. Rodriguez signed a prenuptial agreement, the validity of any such agreement is subject to the normal challenges of a contract action, in addition to any limitation to private contracting imposed by New York State family law. She sought alimony, distribution of assets, child support including private school tuition, life and health insurance, and retention of the couple's $12-million marital home in Coral Gables, Florida.
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Wat, poor A-Rod
Nothing lasts forever, it seems...
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My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
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VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
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Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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interesting bump
many important reasons people get married are pretty much non-existent several years down the road.
since marriage is a legal issue why not hire legal counsel so you will have proper guidance and understanding?
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Baby, if you truly love me and know we're gonna be together forever, sign this saying I get allllllllllll your shit if we break up. If you don't sign it, it's like saying you think we're gonna get a divorce and you have no faith in our relationship or trust in me.
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelion
dont get one
the fear will hold you together
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needs more love imo
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Sweet bump kiwi.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I strongly disagree with the notion that if you have a pre-nup, you're going into the relationship/marriage with the expectation that it's going to fail.
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The problem is that emotional romantics can't make the distinction, and to them -- acknowledging that it could fail is barely if at all removed from expecting it to fail.
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flomo
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: mashing potatoes
Posts: 878
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So how much did you lose?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigred
Protect dog
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bikes
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a hot damn mess
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,449
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if you aint no punk, holla we want prenup.
we want prenup! YEAH!
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I damage threads that may actually benefit some posters
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kiwiMark
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nu Zuland bru
Posts: 939
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oic
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Sasquach991
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Rat Cheer
Posts: 1,012
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If you think you need a pre nup, then you are marrying the wrong person.
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"Just cause I'm from the South don't mean I ain't got no book learnin'"
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
...we've all learned long ago how to share the truth without actually having the truth.
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BankItDrew
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
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I don't think anyone should ever get married. We're all much better off doing all of the married stuff without the paperwork.
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Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
I don't think anyone should ever get married. We're all much better off doing all of the married stuff without the paperwork.
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tax break incentives.
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boost
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Chicago
Posts: 706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquach991
If you think you need a pre nup, then you are marrying the wrong person.
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lolidealism.jpg
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
Sweet bump kiwi.
The problem is that emotional romantics can't make the distinction, and to them -- acknowledging that it could fail is barely if at all removed from expecting it to fail.
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Then you have a decision to make.
I would add that if you have enough money to make a prenup worthwhile, a steady stream of hot, young, eager and willing women tends to follow, and the one you're currently 'with' isn't going to be in a hurry to leave either.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Ok there might be a little gap between 'enough money to make a prenup worthwhile' and 'rich' where the above apples, but you get the idea.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Then you have a decision to make.
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The obvious decision is to practice mate selection more carefully. I don't think I could ever be with someone who didn't acknowledge the transient nature of love or future unknowns.
I wasn't disagreeing with what you said at all, it just seems like your words would be lost on a lot of people raised on fairy-tale romance stories that produce absurd expectations for relationships.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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agree on everything
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
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it's settled then. When we get married, we're getting a prenup.
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05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
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