mosque at ground zero.

[BennyLaRue]

Would it be ok to build a Christian church in proximity to the Oklahoma City bombing site?

McVeigh and Nichols were Christians, of course. If not by practice, then culturally.

[BennyLaRue]

I also think it's funny that there are Muslim services held in the new chapel at the Pentagon and nobody is saying boo. That's not close proximity, that's IN the fucking place. Should they be booted? Threatened?

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff.

[bigred]

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff like jersey shore and lindsey lohan

fyp

[BennyLaRue]

None of it means anything. Focus on important stuff like fucking your wife, one-liners, expanding your mind and connecting with nature.

FMP

[bigred]

I don't want to fuck your wife, that sounds rude

[BennyLaRue]

Then UG's wife. She's hot. That's important.

[Deuce Blue]

Ron Paul?

edit



But you do have something towards the Muslim people and the religion of Islam. It shines through in your last two posts.

Yea, I may not think highly of the Muslim religion. Stoning of little girls and such get under my skin. But if they aren't strapping on vest they can do what they wish. Sharia law is a violation of everything I think America stands for. Whatever... Just because I don't agree with the tenants of a religion doesn't make me a hater of the people that chose to practice it.

[bigred]

Benny, high five on our derail!

[Deuce Blue]

Would it be ok to build a Christian church in proximity to the Oklahoma City bombing site?

McVeigh and Nichols were Christians, of course. If not by practice, then culturally.

They didn't do it for a religious purpose. Apples and Oranges.

[Deanglow]

building this mosque is like building a straight bar next to bigred

[wufwugy]

I'll make this quick

Happens every August. Congress is out of session, and the RepubliFOX Party takes this time to focus on spearheading their lies for ratings and political misdirection

This has NOTHING to do with what some of you guys think it does. It is pure propaganda, there are churches in Hiroshima and Japanese center in Pearl Harbor and already Islamic centers near GZ, the guy in charge of the Islam community center has been a very long time friend and employee of GOP and White House and has been hailed as one of the most moderate of all Muslims until FOX suddenly decided to throw him under the bus, many Muslims died in 9/11, some of you guys are falsely equating different kinds of Islam

Yet none of that matters because it's property rights and Freedom of Religion. End of story. Stop buying the bullshit coming from the right-wing even if by proxy. A little bit of research shows that contemporary US right-wing is 100% FOX propaganda. 100% of GOP, 100% of talking points, and 100% of Republican policy are a wholly owned subsidiary of FOX.

The next time you hold a position that is even remotely related to FOX, take the time to examine the issue further, and you will find that its entire lifeblood is lies, damned lies, and propaganda

[Renton]

Wuf, I think your (and others') point about property rights is a bit specious. People don't have the right in this country to build whatever they want wherever they want. It has to be approved through a very pain in the ass process before you can get a permit to build your project. Basically our laws are such that the government has the right to approve or deny. So someone on the opposite side of this issue might argue that this country is run democratically, and that therefore their opinion should be considered by the government making the ultimate decision as to whether it be built.

[BennyLaRue]

They didn't do it for a religious purpose. Apples and Oranges.

The 9/11 guys weren't representatives of Islam. They didn't do it for a religious purpose, just as the Oklahoma City guys didn't do it for a political purpose (want me to get into how they were representing Conservatives/Republicans?). Both groups did what they did for incredibly selfish and personal, INDIVIDUAL reasons, regardless of how they themselves viewed their actions. Throw whatever veil you want on it but you cannot take the intent of individuals and generalize a population they happened to belong to and make them all own it.

[BennyLaRue]

Benny, high five on our derail!

We should work together more often. We shouldn't fight. We can be like the [insert stereotypically black and white dudes overcoming differences together reference] of FTR.

[BennyLaRue]

Deuce, Renton and TCracker, I'm interested to know if you actually know any Muslims.

[a500lbgorilla]

Wuf, I think your (and others') point about property rights is a bit specious. People don't have the right in this country to build whatever they want wherever they want. It has to be approved through a very pain in the ass process before you can get a permit to build your project. Basically our laws are such that the government has the right to approve or deny. So someone on the opposite side of this issue might argue that this country is run democratically, and that therefore their opinion should be considered by the government making the ultimate decision as to whether it be built.

It was approved through a pain in the ass process. Then it was made a wedge issue.

When I first heard of the 'Ground-zero Mosque' my reaction was, "fuck that." When I learned of the reality of the situation, my reaction was, "fuck me from a few days back."

Let's boil this entire issue down to a quick bullet point argument:

Islam sucks.
This is America.
Islam sucks.
This is America.
ad nauseum.

Sorry, Renton and DB. But this is America. I don't care how beyond evil Islam seems to you. This is America - Love it or Leave it.

[Deuce Blue]

And to belittle my position on the issue isn't really debating it. I could just as easily point to the left and say you all get your "news" from jon stewart. And honestly anybody that puts Keith Olbermann and brilliant together in the same sentence worries me.

For someone who doesn't want to group everyone together you do a great job wufwugy. Anybody who disagrees with you is stupid and obviously just a FOX minion. Great debate there.

Churches in Hiroshima?? WTF does that have to do with anything? And no I don't think there is a Japanese cultural center at pearl harbor. Maybe YOU should get some shit straight.

I'm sure you would be happy as a clam if your daughter married a Muslim, moved to Saudi Arabia and got to live under Sharia law. Sure you would, as long as she didn't watch FOX.

[wufwugy]

RE: property rights

The argument is solid. So solid that even hardcore old time conservatives are telling the teabaggers they're wrong.

Also, the democratic process does not apply to human rights. This is why Prop 8 was overturned and why many times in history our courts rule 'against' public democracy. Established human rights are not up for debate, and frankly, the courts need to get their asses together and rule that the Constitution clearly outlaws things like illegal drugs and illegal gambling in the exact same way that it outlaws white only or hetero only marriage.

The community center has done nothing illegal and is entirely within their constitutional rights. Even FOX knows this well enough that their rhetoric has changed from 'it's wrong' to 'they have the right, but it's insensitive'. This rationalization means fuckall, and it's no different than saying that black people shouldn't ride in the front of the bus in Louisiana because it's 'insensitive to all the racist fuckheads'. Either way, it's using the Bill of Rights as toilet paper

[a500lbgorilla]

And to belittle my position on the issue isn't really debating it.

What if I belittle my position at the same time?

[BooG690]

I'm sure you would be happy as a clam if your daughter married a Muslim, moved to Saudi Arabia and got to live under Sharia law. Sure you would, as long as she didn't watch FOX.

LOL what?

[Deuce Blue]

What if I belittle my position at the same time?

As long as we belittle together it be all right.

[spoonitnow]

Islam is no more intrinsically Islamist than present-day Germany is Nazi

wat

[Deuce Blue]

LOL what?

Got somewhat off course there I admit. Basically I was just pointing out that I think a large group of the progressive crowd wants to turn 99% of Muslims into Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. They have a funny name but other than that no big deal. If one looks closer at the religion we see there are entire countries living under laws that dehumanize women and non-muslims and subjegate them to a terrible life. All in the name of Islam.

nobody really seems to want to point that out because God (or Allah) forbid we say something bad about anybody that is a minority in this country. If some white christian church suddenly started to treat women the way Islam does (IN ENTIRE COUNTRIES) the left would be calling for a Gitmo just for them.

I believe it is a product of our now ultra-PC society. Sad I think.

[triumphant cracker]

Deuce, Renton and TCracker, I'm interested to know if you actually know any Muslims.

i did when i was living in california...they were total assholes....

[BennyLaRue]

wat

See, Deuce didn't write that long post. It was lifted from a Charles Krauthammer article (punny, considering he's talkin Nazis).

Krauthammer: A Mosque Near Ground Zero Would Defile a Sacred Space | Richmond Times-Dispatch

[BennyLaRue]

i did when i was living in california...they were total assholes....

What kind of relationship did you have with these Muslims? I mean, were you sociable with Muslims? Did you work closely with Muslims?

[BooG690]

If some white christian church suddenly started to treat women the way Islam does (IN ENTIRE COUNTRIES) the left would be calling for a Gitmo just for them.

Again, LOL what?

I don't get why people keep bringing this point up. THAT SHIT DOESN'T GO DOWN IN AMERICA. If ANY group treated their women as Islam does in THEIR countries, EVERYBODY should be calling "for a Gitmo just for them." But again, IT DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE. What point are you trying to make here?

[wufwugy]

And to belittle my position on the issue isn't really debating it. I could just as easily point to the left and say you all get your "news" from jon stewart. And honestly anybody that puts Keith Olbermann and brilliant together in the same sentence worries me.

We get our news from a wide variety of sources. Huge difference between that and 100% of right-wing news not only comes out of Fox, often via proxy, but Fox runs the news cycle and political cycle itself by being the one and only powerful media organization in the country that spearheads and hammers away at their agenda.

For someone who doesn't want to group everyone together you do a great job wufwugy. Anybody who disagrees with you is stupid and obviously just a FOX minion. Great debate there.

I never did that. Fox propaganda is Fox propaganda. This entire thing being entirely a propaganda move by Fox is standard and well understood.

Churches in Hiroshima?? WTF does that have to do with anything?

Xtians bombed the fuck out of them

You can't have it both ways. They could just as easily say they're offended by churches as teabaggers are by mosques. It's not even relevant

And no I don't think there is a Japanese cultural center at pearl harbor. Maybe YOU should get some shit straight.

Yeah not in PH, I don't think that would even be logistically possible. Several Japanese centers and shrines close by. No different than what's going on here

I'm sure you would be happy as a clam if your daughter married a Muslim, moved to Saudi Arabia and got to live under Sharia law.

Red herring

Sure you would, as long as she didn't watch FOX.

We know for 100% fact that Fox is propaganda, not news. C'mon

[BooG690]

i did when i was living in california...they were total assholes....

LOL Please explain to me how they were total assholes. I can't wait to hear the story a "triumphant cracker" has.

[Ash256]

Happens every August.

This. It's the slowest news month. If the media spent half the time they do falling for shitstirring ruses actually covering the humanitarian crises going on in the world at the moment, we'd actually have a bit of fucking perspective on events.

It's a fucking islamic cultural centre. In one of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world. In a country that enshrines freedom of religion and assembly in its most important legal document.

Grow up and stop getting trolled by the hate machine.

[BooG690]

I fucking love Ash more and more as his [commune] post count grows.

[wufwugy]

Got somewhat off course there I admit. Basically I was just pointing out that I think a large group of the progressive crowd wants to turn 99% of Muslims into Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. They have a funny name but other than that no big deal. If one looks closer at the religion we see there are entire countries living under laws that dehumanize women and non-muslims and subjegate them to a terrible life. All in the name of Islam.

nobody really seems to want to point that out because God (or Allah) forbid we say something bad about anybody that is a minority in this country. If some white christian church suddenly started to treat women the way Islam does (IN ENTIRE COUNTRIES) the left would be calling for a Gitmo just for them.

I believe it is a product of our now ultra-PC society. Sad I think.

This entire thing is a red herring

We don't give a fuck about who they are or whatever, we care about civil rights. Don't confuse yourself into thinking that it's relevant whether or not these guys are good or bad or right or wrong. We're dealing with basic basic basic Bill of Rights, that is all.

It's the same thing with atheism. Nobody defends religion like atheists do. This is because we care about human rights. Frankly, I get kinda irritated when people force me to defend a stupid and evil superstition.

[a500lbgorilla]

If the media...

Al Jazeera. Problem solved, fuck the rabble.

[Renton]

I'll admit that I have never really got to know a muslim.

My only intimate experience with religion was with several denominations of Christianity. I am agnostic, and my experiences with life up to this point has suggested to me that religion is a major impediment to the progress of the human race.

I'll also admit that my original perspective on this issue has changed somewhat since the beginning of the thread, and I've really enjoyed everyone's enlightening views. Since like halfway down page one, I've basically been playing devil's advocate. The main point I've been trying to argue is that being against this muslim center being built is not automatically racist or xenophobic. To me it is totally ok to disapprove of a religion, and one shouldn't be labeled a bigot as a result.

[Monsieur_chat]

I think this thread is a perfect demonstration of the actual problem here.

I'm an antitheist. I fucking detest all religions equally as the blot on humanity that they are, but *that's not the point*.

So many of you are trying to cite grievances with Islam, which I personally share, as a reason for this group to forfeit their right to build a community centre. Anyone debating the virtues of Islam or trying to compare one religion to another is missing the point entirely.

Whether or not Islam, or any other religion is fucking evil (I would personally contest that they all are), it doesn't change the *inalienable right, under the US constitution* (which on this subject I greatly admire) that these people have to build their community centre.

I'll say that again, those of you who are American and are saying that this shouldn't go ahead clearly have no comprehension of your own constitution.

Fuck man, so many people MISSING THE FUCKING POINT.

[Monsieur_chat]

In other words what wufwuguy just said.

[Monsieur_chat]

Oh and one other thing - anybody complaining about our "ultra-PC society" needs to go and spend some time in Iran.

[wufwugy]

The main point I've been trying to argue is that being against this muslim center being built is not automatically racist or xenophobic.

For sure

It is, however, anti-civil rights via proxy at the very least. "Via proxy" is a necessary point that people don't understand that well. Voting for John Boehner is far more racist than calling a Cuban a wetback, people just don't understand why. We pay far too much attention to the superficial, and little attention to what's really going on

[BooG690]

The Parent Company Trap - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/23/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

That Fox news be trippin'.

[boost]

Once you cave in and start talking about the fact that its not REALLY even a mosque and its not REALLY even that close, aren't you kind of arguing at their inferior level?

well, no. It's a common and accepted debate tactic to state your higher level debunking of their silly claims, but then step down and say "even if XYZ were as you say, still this that and the other." So I think when the proximity is argued it is just assumed that the listener/reader understands that it is prefixed by "this is america, damnit... buuuuuuut even if..."

[surviva316]

The Parent Company Trap - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/23/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

That Fox news be trippin'.

BooG's biggest win since his top reporting efforts during the iopq got banned fiasco of '09

[BooG690]

BooG's biggest win since his top reporting efforts during the iopq got banned fiasco of '09

You were probably in Delaware when I posted this but go back to post #101 of this thread. That link is a lot better than this Comedy Central link.

[spoonitnow]

For sure

It is, however, anti-civil rights via proxy at the very least. "Via proxy" is a necessary point that people don't understand that well. Voting for John Boehner is far more racist than calling a Cuban a wetback, people just don't understand why. We pay far too much attention to the superficial, and little attention to what's really going on

That's because Cubans aren't wetbacks, Mexicans are.

[kingnat]

The Parent Company Trap - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/23/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

That Fox news be trippin'.

lol'd, would watch and likely lol again.

[surviva316]

You were probably in Delaware when I posted this but go back to post #101 of this thread. That link is a lot better than this Comedy Central link.

the link in that post began with "Keith Olbermann" so i likely passed

[Warpe]

Al Jazeera. Problem solved, fuck the rabble.

Just put their news app on my iPhone. Will probably delete it before crossing the border into the States tho.

[BooG690]

Thank you Fox News for all your hate-mongering.
Cabbie Ahmed Sharif Stabbed: Michael Enright Asks "Are You Muslim?" and Slashes Driver, Say Cops - Crimesider - CBS News

[a500lbgorilla]

Thank you Fox News for all your hate-mongering.
Cabbie Ahmed Sharif Stabbed: Michael Enright Asks "Are You Muslim?" and Slashes Driver, Say Cops - Crimesider - CBS News

... You're employing the very logic you yourself condemn.

[Hawk]

That's because Cubans aren't wetbacks, Mexicans are.

cubans = mexicans = everything else south of USA ldo

[spoonitnow]

cubans = mexicans = everything else south of USA ldo

No, it's a proven fact that Cubans are more likely to commit hate crimes against white Christians while Mexicans just want welfare and to steal shit.

[BooG690]

... You're employing the very logic you yourself condemn.

Yes sir. You're correct. I apologize.

[a500lbgorilla]

Fire at Tenn. Mosque Building Site Ruled Arson - CBS News

[spoonitnow]

I often wonder where certain racial w/e words come from, like "gook" and "wop".

[boost]

I often wonder where certain racial w/e words come from, like "gook" and "wop".

I think a lot of them are actually acronyms, such as fob for fresh off the boat.

[surviva316]

I often wonder where certain racial w/e words come from, like "gook" and "wop".

wop=without papers

[mbiz]

its so ironic, if they really wanted to piss off al queda they would welcome the mosque with open arms

[spoonitnow]

wop=without papers

Contrary to popular belief, the word 'wop' most likely didn't originate as an acronym for "With Out Papers" or "Without Passport", one of the most famous examples of folk etymology or backronym. The term "wop" was already in popular use as early as 1910, a period in which no immigrant needed papers to enter the United States (passports and visas were not required of immigrants entering the country until 1921).

Wop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[a500lbgorilla]

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

[oskar]

YouTube - Islam Culture Center / "Mosque" to be built next to a gay bar

I really like the idea to just piss them off instead of undermining their right to build this. Like a Draw Mohammed Workshop Center across the street... or two blocks away.

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Off topic: Anyone else got the feeling that this had to have been written by a woman?

[a500lbgorilla]

Huh? How, what, where, when and why do you think that?

I suppose it's a 50/50 shot at getting it right, but I always thought all content on The Onion was written by committee. If a woman did the grunt work of stringing the article together, I guess she's the one that wrote it.

[oskar]

too long/ off topic/ hard to explain.

[boost]

YouTube - Islam Culture Center / "Mosque" to be built next to a gay bar

I really like the idea to just piss them off instead of undermining their right to build this. Like a Draw Mohammed Workshop Center across the street... or two blocks away.




Off topic: Anyone else got the feeling that this had to have been written by a woman?

so, you are suggesting that we out-douche them? Not really sure you can win when your chosen tactic is to out-douche..

[triumphant cracker]

I often wonder where certain racial w/e words come from, like "gook" and "wop".

The history behind it is that during the Korean war, an American approached a Korean.
The Korean did not understand the American, instead he pointed at him and called out "Mi Gook" which means "America" in Korean. The American then mistakened the Korean and thought the Korean was refering to himself as a "gook." After the Korean War, American started to refer to Koreans as Gooks for short term thinking it was a short name for Korean.


“WOP” is the English pronunciation of the Ital-Neapolitan word “GUAPPO”. The word defines those who belong to the Guapperia o “Camorra”, a criminal organization similar to the Sicilian Mafia located mostly in the province of Campania (an Italian Province) and its capital Napoli, Italia. The term is still commonly used especially in Central-South Italy (Meridione) to describe those that either belong to the organization or those that are arrogant to the point of inducing a fight. It was brought to the USA by early Italian immigrants from the province of Campania who named those suspected to belonging to the Guapperia “Guappi”, in a similar fashion the Sicilians used the term “Mafiosi”. Widely used in Chicago where most immigrants from Campania settled, one of its native sons Al Capone was a typical Guappo, it was confused by the non Italian population to indicate people of Italian origins, similarly the word “Paesano”. The term has been erroneously explained to mean “Without Papers” because of the initials “WP” by those, Italian descent or not, that have little knowledge of Italian history and dialects. The term has taken a derogatory meaning in North America and for many refers to people of Italian origin or background.


Urban Dictionary, September 1: cheappuccino

also see...
Gook - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wop - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[a500lbgorilla]

http://i.imgur.com/QC1E9.jpg

Don't attempt to tell the opponents of a ground zero mosque that a tiny fraction of Muslims are extremists. Because 1% is a tiny fraction, and 1% of a billion is 1 million! 19 took down the WTC, that's over 52000 19s to destroy over 100000 towers.

And it's easy to differentiate the copy-paste sheeple from the informed Americans who do the research by their position alone.

[kiwiMark]

hi my names triuphant korean, i disguise my racism with wikipedia

[bikes]

PLAY FREE BIRD

[BennyLaRue]

http://i.imgur.com/QC1E9.jpg

Don't attempt to tell the opponents of a ground zero mosque that a tiny fraction of Muslims are extremists. Because 1% is a tiny fraction, and 1% of a billion is 1 million! 19 took down the WTC, that's over 52000 19s to destroy over 100000 towers.

And it's easy to differentiate the copy-paste sheeple from the informed Americans who do the research by their position alone.

1% of 1 birron is what now?

[surviva316]

http://i.imgur.com/QC1E9.jpg

Bonju Pattern HAS to be a level.

also, i fail to see the connection between the argument 1% of 1 billion still being a big number, and any kind of relevancy whatsoever with the mosque near ground zero. are 1 billion people going to be going to that prayer center?

Catholic churches are an afront to grade schools. sure, only 1% of priests are child molesters but there are 400,000 priests in the world, so if you build a catholic church near a grade school, then FOUR THOUSAND boys will get raped. i know that's more boys than there are in the entire school, but that's a fact using math, and you can't dispute math.

unrelated note: while i was researching how many priests there are in the world, i found this sentence:

"Some 1.166 billion Roman Catholics were baptized last year, compared to just under 1.147 billion in 2007"

i doubt the validity of this statement

[CoccoBill]

unrelated note: while i was researching how many priests there are in the world, i found this sentence:

"Some 1.166 billion Roman Catholics were baptized last year, compared to just under 1.147 billion in 2007"

i doubt the validity of this statement

Why? Most of them are certainly not in the US and europe if that's what you think, they're in asia and central/south america.

[BennyLaRue]

Why? Most of them are certainly not in the US and europe if that's what you think, they're in asia and central/south america.

lol, best level yet, imo

[surviva316]

"Some 1.166 billion Roman Catholics were baptized last year, compared to just under 1.147 billion in 2007"

i doubt the validity of this statement

u c nou?

[BennyLaRue]

That source might have meant there were 1.166 billion BAPTIZED Roman Catholics last year, compared to just under 1.147 billion in 2007, they just worded it poorly.

[surviva316]

i know that's what it meant, i just thought it was wording fail. i guess i'll go back in my hole now

[CoccoBill]

I honestly thought you guys get baptized annually.

[BennyLaRue]

I honestly thought you guys get baptized annually.

Naw, dude, if you get baptized again it turns it off.