Ding dong the witch is dead

[WillburForce]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22067155

Thatcher is dead. Gonna be cracking the bubbly tonight!

[rong]

Hey Maggie, thanks for fucking our unions, selling off our housing stock, destroying our industry and privatizing pretty much everything. But credit where it's due, your re-election was genius.

RIP

[eugmac]

I wonder how Renton feels about Thatcher.

[Renton]

Before my time a little bit and not my country, but those things rong described sound pretty great.

Also I imagine a U.K. "conservative" to be equivalent to a U.S. liberal given how much more right skewed our political spectrum is.

[kiwiMark]

o dat hippy thatcher and her range wars

[daviddem]

Before my time a little bit and not my country, but those things rong described sound pretty great.

Also I imagine a U.K. "conservative" to be equivalent to a U.S. liberal given how much more right skewed our political spectrum is.

Probably about right, but does that not make you worry about what US Republicans are equivalent to?

Goodbye Maggie. I am sure they'll shoot some nice fireworks in Argentina in your memory tonight.

[kiwiMark]

she should've requested they play dont cry for me argentina at her funeral ldo

[daviddem]

she should've requested they play dont cry for me argentina at her funeral ldo

ROFL

Here are other songs to go with "the witch is dead":
http://www.lesinrocks.com/2013/04/08...j10RQ.facebook

[oskar]

I liked her. I don't know much about her politics, but I like a woman that can fuck shit up. Fuck you, Wilbur, you and the rest of the whinging proletariat! Margret was awesome, and I'm genuinely sad that she's gone.

[WillburForce]

Saville and Thatcher are arguing in hell over who fucked the most minors.

[eugmac]

in any case, as nasty a piece of work she seemed to have been, so many people my age are having a toast over her death when they were all too young to remember anything about her politcs. if she was presently in power and was for the sake of argument, driving the country to ruin, then sure - you feel glad for your country and hope that things will get better. but as it is, people are celebrating about an old woman who died of a stroke. seems fairly senseless imo.

[ChipEaterMan]

Probably about right, but does that not make you worry about what US Republicans are equivalent to?

Goodbye Maggie. I am sure they'll shoot some nice fireworks in Argentina in your memory tonight.

she should've requested they play dont cry for me argentina at her funeral ldo

Rest in peace
The families of the 323 dead in the sinking of Argentine Navy cruiser ARA General Belgrano which was out of the war zone will pray for you.

[WillburForce]

in any case, as nasty a piece of work she seemed to have been, so many people my age are having a toast over her death when they were all too young to remember anything about her politcs. if she was presently in power and was for the sake of argument, driving the country to ruin, then sure - you feel glad for your country and hope that things will get better. but as it is, people are celebrating about an old woman who died of a stroke. seems fairly senseless imo.

I'm old enough. She put tens of thousands out of work and ruined many lives. She sold off public assets which we'll never get back. Plus as pointed out above, she (IMHO) committed a horrendous war crime.

So fuck her. And fuck her family (her son is a criminal).

And while I'm about it, fuck all the stupid Brits who think she is a national treasure.

[a500lbgorilla]

She sold off public assets which we'll never get back... fuck all the stupid Brits who think she is a national treasure.

If she's a national treasure, that makes her a public asset.

And you're just willing to throw that away? There's some good calcium in those bones!

[seven-deuce]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYlJgngmV8U

[Renton]

LOL jesus christ, I don't think I'm gonna be jumping for joy when George W. Bush dies. Maybe Cheney, but even then, I can't see celebrating someones death with such revelry unless they are bin Laden or Josef Mengele or something.

Especially when they die long after they are having any meaningful effect on the world. Lucky for me, the Bushes are the only ex-presidents who don't go on to other endeavors after they leave office. They've basically dropped off the face of the earth.

[WillburForce]

She is hated in case you hadn't guessed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmmomV-ax-s

[oskar]

I did celebrate a little when a certain local politician wrapped himself and his VW around a tree, so I respect the sentiment. But I do tend to like people who do what they're doing at a high level. I bet you could put her up against Christopher Hitchens in a debate and when she's done with him he'd have to concede that he's a filthy dog who needs to clean her soles. I guess I'm just a sucker for genius, evil or not.

[daviddem]

I did celebrate a little when a certain local politician wrapped himself and his VW around a tree, so I respect the sentiment. But I do tend to like people who do what they're doing at a high level. I bet you could put her up against Christopher Hitchens in a debate and when she's done with him he'd have to concede that he's a filthy dog who needs to clean her soles. I guess I'm just a sucker for genius, evil or not.

Adolf Hitler was also doing what he was doing at a pretty high level, and he was good at rethoric.

I am not comparing Maggie to Hitler, just pointing out that with that logic, you should be a sucker for Hitler too.

[oskar]

I read some of his book and heard his speeches. I'm not impressed with hitler.
People who think he had good rhetoric: google for a pdf of mein kampf and just read the preface, and tell me if that's good rhetoric or the ramblings of a madman.
You raise a good point tho. I guess you can despise someone and still respect their craft. but hitler is clearly overrated.

[Pelion]

I'm old enough. She put tens of thousands out of work and ruined many lives. She sold off public assets which we'll never get back. Plus as pointed out above, she (IMHO) committed a horrendous war crime.

So fuck her. And fuck her family (her son is a criminal).

And while I'm about it, fuck all the stupid Brits who think she is a national treasure.

Pretty much this. Personally, I'll be cracking open a celebratory beer. She certainly clung on long enough.

[daviddem]

I read some of his book and heard his speeches. I'm not impressed with hitler.
People who think he had good rhetoric: google for a pdf of mein kampf and just read the preface, and tell me if that's good rhetoric or the ramblings of a madman.
You raise a good point tho. I guess you can despise someone and still respect their craft. but hitler is clearly overrated.

I read mein kampf when I was 16 (probably too early). Pretty boring and the style sucks. I was more referring to his oratory skills, if you have seen some videos of his speeches, and to his er..., shall we say, unwavering commitment to apply his mad ramblings to the real world.

Same could be said of Charles Manson or Hannibal the Cannibal though I guess.

[BooG690]

The man can speak. They don't make political speeches like these any more.

[eugmac]

This video is not available in your country. (in germany ldo)

[eugmac]

understandable reading the comments and realizing that it's mostly hitler worshippers watching this vid :/

[eugmac]

godwin's law kicked in really quick here.

[oskar]

That's interesting, I can watch it in austria

I'm still not impressed. How is that a good speech? It's all: we used to be small, now we're big. If you're a nazi, you are awesome, if you are not a nazi, we don't like you. We have to get rid of the bad and bring in the good, etc.
This oskar is not for turning.

When I compared her to Hitchens, I did not realize how right I was. I might have had this story in the back of my mind somewhere, but I did not actively remember it, so I'm all the more excited to find this:



What a great epitaph that is. I wish he was still here to speak on her behalf.

[bode]

Pretty much this. Personally, I'll be cracking open a celebratory beer. She certainly clung on long enough.

a rare Pelion sighting.

[spoonitnow]

Haha you stupid British fucks let a woman run some shit, and then you bitched about all of the shit she fucked up. REAL MEN* OF GENIUS.

[Penneywize]

godwin's law kicked in really quick here.

Hahaha, nice one.

[daviddem]

Haha you stupid British fucks let a woman run some shit, and then you bitched about all of the shit she fucked up. REAL MEN* OF GENIUS.

2016 -> Hillary -> spoonitnow ->

[Da GOAT]

I'm Irish, I approve this message!

[a500lbgorilla]

The man can speak. They don't make political speeches like these any more.

Everything Hitler did enabled his terror ---> Everything Hitler did is terrible ---> Hitler gave great speeches and that's terrible ---> Thatcher gave great speeches and she's terrible.

There's some poor logic in there somewhere. I can't tell if its the arrows or the words or all of it but it's there.

[a500lbgorilla]

Haha you stupid British fucks let a woman run some shit, and then you bitched about all of the shit she fucked up. REAL MEN* OF GENIUS.

Seriously, where are your sons-of-slaves? They've been genetically groomed to do all of the work, why won't you just let them?

[Keith]

I'm old enough.

really ? you remember the winter of discontent ? The dead unburied , rubbish piling in the streets,wildcat strikes at the drop of a hat, the power cuts, and before that the 3 day week , balance of payments crises, the IMF having to bail the country out , having to wait weeks for BT to supply phonelines. Industry being inefficient through overstaffing and excessive wages so that it couldn't compete internationally.Yeah life was perfect when she was elected to sort out the mess that the country was in.

She put tens of thousands out of work and ruined many lives.

How many of those didn't really do a proper job in the first place either covering excess capacity to cope with demand to recover from the strikes. Workers had a job for life even if the company no longer had any work for them because wage costs had meant they couldn't win orders internationally and imports were cheaper.
Yes it ruined lives but it meant that british industry could become competitive intertionally again and create new jobs.

She sold off public assets which we'll never get back.

I see nothing wrong with that, When you owe shitloads and you have assets , sometimes you just have to sell them and cut your debt. Those nationalized industries were generally bloated and inefficient anyway. The huge mistake made was that the legislation should have included provision that oversees companies should have been prevented from buying a controlling stake in them and maybe limiting the % of shares owned by foreigners .

Plus as pointed out above, she (IMHO) committed a horrendous war crime.

really ..... i didn't know the details but a quick look at wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano) reveals

By 29 April the ships were patrolling the Burdwood Bank, south of the islands. On 30 April the Belgrano was detected by the British nuclear-powered hunter-killer submarine Conqueror. The submarine approached over the following day. On 1 May 1982, Admiral Juan Lombardo ordered all Argentine naval units to seek out the British task force around the Falklands and launch a “massive attack” the following day. The Belgrano, which was outside the exclusion zone to the north, was ordered south.
Lombardo’s signal was intercepted by British Intelligence. As a result Mrs Thatcher and her War Cabinet, meeting at Chequers the following day, agreed to a request from Admiral Sir Terence Lewin, the Chief of the Defence Staff, to alter the rules of engagement and allow an attack on the Belgrano outside the exclusion zone.[10] Although the group was outside the British-declared Total Exclusion Zone of 370 km (200 nautical miles) radius from the islands, the British decided that it was a threat. After consultation at Cabinet level, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher agreed that Commander Chris Wreford-Brown should attack the Belgrano.[11]

Controversy over the sinking

There was considerable controversy surrounding the legality of the sinking of General Belgrano due to disagreement on the exact nature of the Maritime Exclusion Zone and whether the Belgrano had been returning to port at the time of the sinking. The sinking also became a cause célèbre for anti-war campaigners such as Labour MP Tam Dalyell. Early reports claimed or suggested that more than 1,000 Argentine sailors may have been killed in the sinking.
The sinking occurred 14 hours after President of Peru Fernando Belaúnde proposed a comprehensive peace plan and called for regional unity, although Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher and diplomats in London did not see this document until after the sinking of the Belgrano.[24] Diplomatic efforts to that point had failed completely. After the sinking, Argentina rejected the plan but the UK indicated its acceptance on 5 May. The news was subsequently dominated by military action and it is not well known that the British continued to offer ceasefire terms until 1 June.[25]

Legal situation


Deployment of naval forces on 1–2 May 1982 in the South Atlantic


At no time during the Falklands conflict did either the United Kingdom or Argentina declare war against the other country. Combat was confined to the area around and on the islands themselves. The Belgrano was sunk outside the 200-nautical-mile (370 km) total exclusion zone around the Falklands, delimitated by the UK. Through a message passed via the Swiss Embassy in Buenos Aires to the Argentine government on 23 April, the UK made clear that it no longer considered the 200-mile (370 km) exclusion zone as the limit of its military action. The message read:

In announcing the establishment of a Maritime Exclusion Zone around the Falkland Islands, Her Majesty's Government made it clear that this measure was without prejudice to the right of the United Kingdom to take whatever additional measures may be needed in the exercise of its right of self-defence under Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. In this connection Her Majesty's Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly.[5]

Interviews conducted by Martin Middlebrook for his book, The Fight For The Malvinas, indicated that Argentine Naval officers understood the intent of the message was to indicate that any ships operating near the exclusion zone could be attacked.[28] Argentine Rear Admiral Allara, who was in charge of the task force that the Belgrano was part of, said "After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano".[29] Captain Bonzo also told Middlebrook that he was not angry about the attack on his ship and "The limit [exclusion zone] did not exclude danger or risks; it was all the same in or out. I would like to be quite precise that, as far as I was concerned, the 200-mile limit was valid until 1 May, that is while diplomatic negotiations were taking place and/or until a real act of war took place, and that had happened on 1 May".[29]
Admiral Sandy Woodward, who commanded a British aircraft task force during the war, wrote in his 1997 book "One Hundred Days" that HMS Conqueror received a signal changing the rules of engagement and that "The change said quite clearly he may now attack the Belgrano, outside the TEZ".[30]

Belgrano's captain, Héctor Bonzo, died on 22 April 2009, aged 76. He had spent his last years working for an association called Amigos del Crucero General Belgrano (Friends of the Cruiser General Belgrano) whose purpose was to help those affected by the sinking.[48] Captain Bonzo also wrote his memories about the sinking in the book 1093 Tripulantes del Crucero ARA General Belgrano, published in 1992. In this book he wrote that it is "improper to accept that (...) the attack by HMS Conqueror was a treason".[49] During an interview in 2003 he had stated that the General Belgrano was only temporarily sailing to the west at the time of the attack, and his orders were to attack any British ships which came within range of cruiser's armament.[50]
In late 2011, Major David Thorp, a former British military intelligence officer who led the signals intercept team aboard HMS Intrepid, released the book The Silent Listener detailing the role of intelligence in the Falklands War. In the book he stated that despite the fact that the Belgrano was observed by the Conqueror sailing away from the Falklands at the time of the attack, it had actually been ordered to proceed to a rendezvous point within the Exclusion Zone.[51][52] A report prepared by Thorp for Thatcher several months after the incident stated the destination of the vessel was not to her home port as the Argentine Junta stated; the report was not released because the Prime Minister did not want to compromise British signals intelligence capabilities.[53]

not the war crime that you are trying to make it out to be. in fact this probably sums it up the best

In May 1983, Prime Minister Thatcher appeared on Nationwide, a live television show on BBC1, where Diana Gould (1926–2011)[32][33] questioned her about the sinking, saying that the ship was already west of the Falklands and heading towards the Argentinian mainland to the west. Gould also said that the Peruvian peace proposal must have reached London in the 14 hours between its publication and the sinking of the Belgrano, and the escalation of the war could have thus been prevented. In the emotional exchange that followed, Thatcher answered that the vessel was a threat to British ships and lives and denied that the peace proposal had reached her.[34]
After the show, Thatcher's husband Denis lashed out at the producer of the show in the entertainment suite, saying that his wife had been "stitched up by bloody BBC poofs and Trots."[35] Thatcher herself commented during the interview "I think it could only be in Britain that a prime minister was accused of sinking an enemy ship that was a danger to our navy, when my main motive was to protect the boys in our navy."[36]

in fact when you compare the situations , Thatcher sent miltary forces to recover a part of a british dependency from an occupying force. Blair bombed the shit out of iraqi civilians under the guise of ridding the country of weapons of mass destruction that were about to be unleashed on 40 minutes notice when no such weapons were ever found and without a UN mandate. He's far more a war criminal than Thatcher was .

So fuck her. And fuck her family (her son is a criminal).

Yes her son is and he can rot in whatever jail he is in. Like Blair he decided to get involved in changing the leadership of another country, he lost and is now paying the price, Blair is a middle east peace envoy. who the fuck thought that that would ever work?

And while I'm about it, fuck all the stupid Brits who think she is a national treasure.

She took the tough decisions at the right time for the country and made the country a better place. The arrogance and self determination and conviction that she was always right was her biggest downfall
but were a necessary part of the pysche that saw her take on and defeat most of the challenges that were presented.

The electorate are like kids, they want everything now and labour will give it to them and Fuck the cost. It happened in the 70's and the shit hit the fan and Thatcher then had to come in and clear the mess, Gordon Brown got so caught up in his belief that he had single handedly wiped out boom and bust that he then spent all he could giving the electorate what they wanted , not what we could afford and we are waist deep in debt again and having to be sorted out.

She made mistakes but overall she did the right thing for Britain although some lost out as a result. Who's fault was it that some lost out - the preceeding governments who led us into the mess in the first place or the person who sorted out the mess.

[ChipEaterMan]

[oskar]

I don't understand this video, I don't know what your signature means, why you added 'man' to the end of your nick, or how you are moderator when I have no clue who you even are XD

Thanks to Keith for clearing that up. Suddenly I'm curious about cold war strategy, that shit looks pretty cool.

[ChipEaterMan]

I don't understand this video, I don't know what your signature means, why you added 'man' to the end of your nick, or how you are moderator when I have no clue who you even are XD

Thanks to Keith for clearing that up. Suddenly I'm curious about cold war strategy, that shit looks pretty cool.

The video shows argentina's first victory against england (in 1986) after the war.

I'm a moderator in the spainsh forum only. The 't' in the Moderator image should be changed for a 'd'. Moderador in spanish.

Marvel has Batman,Superman,Ironman,Spiderman, Wonderman, Ultraman, Deadman, Aquaman,Hawkman, Animal Man, Hydroman, Catman, Owlman, Megaman, The Purple Man, Amazing Man, The Grey Man, Swordsman, Stiltman, Molten Man, Tigerman and Elongated Man.

DC has Robotman, Hourman, Angle Man, Catwoman, Doll Man, Negative Man, Fatman, Fisherman, Floronic Man, Hitman, Iman, Immortal Man, Infinity Man, Patchwork Man, Ragman, Resurrection Man, Sandman, Shaggy Man, Starman, Starwoman, Wild Huntsman, and Wild Man.

And FTR's Spanish Forum has ChipEaterMan lol

[oskar]

haha thanks for clearing that up!
I like the new avatar.

[WillburForce]

And in other news


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbbsytHDp2o

[WillburForce]

Yo Keith - I can't be actually be arsed to defend my views on it, but needless to say I think most of your points are wrong

[Keith]

I know how you feel Wilbur - facts are a bugger when you are trying to make an emotive argument.

[WillburForce]

I know how you feel Wilbur - facts are a bugger when you are trying to make an emotive argument.

One mans facts etc...right is right, left is left. I'm just busy and can't be bothered with an internet debate

[Duffryn]

I know how you feel Wilbur - facts are a bugger when you are trying to make an emotive argument.

Pity many of your "facts" are incorrect. Diana Gould repeatedly asked Thatcher why she had sunk the Belgrano when it was steaming away from the Falklands. She denied that it was, although appeared badly rattled. Probably because she was lying. Her Government later prosecuted Civil Servant Clive Ponting for leaking information that the Belgrano was sailing away from the Falklands and that the Government had lied. Despite him being clearly guilty, the jury acquitted him.

I am also sick of Thatcher's acolytes denigrating the seventies. I have suffered more power cuts in the last 5 years through privatised electricity companies failing to maintain the infrastructure adequately, than during the seventies. Her fan club drones on about having to wait for a 'phone like it’s the end of the world, but fail to mention that under Thatcher you had to wait 8 months for a driving test. I'd love to know why the eighties, with its riots, escalating crime, mass unemployment, selling off state assets at bargain prices, increasing homelessness and me, me, me greed were so much better.

Thatcher did not save the country. She ruined it. No serious economist disputes that her ideological adherence to monetary theory made the recession of the early 80s worse. Whole swathes of perfectly viable manufacturing companies were killed off by record interest rates and a high pound. Unemployment has never returned to the level it was in the 70s and Thatcher created an underclass that the Government is throwing money at today. Her greatest success was in depoliticising most of the country, so they swallow nonsense like she made the country a better place and are only concerned with getting the latest gadget and what talentless celebrities are doing.

[rpm]

i dont know anything about this topic but, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1NyWbhCxZE

[Keith]

Pity many of your "facts" are incorrect. Diana Gould repeatedly asked Thatcher why she had sunk the Belgrano when it was steaming away from the Falklands. She denied that it was, although appeared badly rattled. Probably because she was lying. Her Government later prosecuted Civil Servant Clive Ponting for leaking information that the Belgrano was sailing away from the Falklands and that the Government had lied. Despite him being clearly guilty, the jury acquitted him.

why don't actually check the facts before saying that . from the links i posted above the UK intercepted orders for the belgrano to sail south, The Argentine government had been warned via the swiss embassy that " Her Majesty's Government now wishes to make clear that any approach on the part of Argentine warships, including submarines, naval auxiliaries or military aircraft, which could amount to a threat to interfere with the mission of British Forces in the South Atlantic will encounter the appropriate response. All Argentine aircraft, including civil aircraft engaged in surveillance of these British forces, will be regarded as hostile and are liable to be dealt with accordingly."

Interviews conducted by Martin Middlebrook for his book, The Fight For The Malvinas, indicated that Argentine Naval officers understood the intent of the message was to indicate that any ships operating near the exclusion zone could be attacked.

In late 2011, Major David Thorp, a former British military intelligence officer who led the signals intercept team aboard HMS Intrepid, released the book The Silent Listener detailing the role of intelligence in the Falklands War. In the book he stated that despite the fact that the Belgrano was observed by the Conqueror sailing away from the Falklands at the time of the attack, it had actually been ordered to proceed to a rendezvous point within the Exclusion Zone.[51][52] A report prepared by Thorp for Thatcher several months after the incident stated the destination of the vessel was not to her home port as the Argentine Junta stated; the report was not released because the Prime Minister did not want to compromise British signals intelligence capabilities."

The decision to order the attack was taken on the basis of the intercepted order for the Belgrano to head into the exclusion zone as part of an attack force. Thatcher clearly couldn't reveal the extent of the intelligence reports in the TV interviews without compromising the intelligence gathering .

I am also sick of Thatcher's acolytes denigrating the seventies. I have suffered more power cuts in the last 5 years through privatised electricity companies failing to maintain the infrastructure adequately, than during the seventies. Her fan club drones on about having to wait for a 'phone like it’s the end of the world, but fail to mention that under Thatcher you had to wait 8 months for a driving test.

really? I took my driving test in 1982 ,2 months after my birthday and that included my driving lessons. Waiting time was probably less than 3 weeks after applying for it. Where did you get that statistic from? And combined with another unprovable anecdotal electricity example. The privatised leccy companies have a financial interest in keeping the network working to avoid having to compensate customers for being cut off for extended periods , whether its their fault or due to extreme weather.

I'd love to know why the eighties, with its riots, escalating crime, mass unemployment, selling off state assets at bargain prices, increasing homelessness and me, me, me greed were so much better.

Because the economy was transformed , industry became efficient and could compete for orders and generate profits , and provide the tax income on them and then generate new jobs. Customers could order goods confident that delivery in the required timeframe was likely without strikes interfering.Escalating crime also coincided with increasing drugs availablility, many appreciated the chance to be able to own their own homes, the mistakes were not to recycle the money generated into building new social housing ,in not doing more to tackle the rising teen pregnancy rate which further depleted the availability of the social housing that remained .

I don't disagree thathe greed culture was bad , and we are still stuck with the bankers bonuses, and footballers wages showing how disruptive it is. In fact Football is proball a classic example of how britain was at the end of the seventies. Badly run companies with unaffordable wage costs in severe financial trouble. When the likes of Portsmouth coventry etc go bust the workforce will be out of jobs and there will be collateral damage amongst the businesses surrrounding /supplying the clubs with a knock on effect on families.

Thatcher did not save the country. She ruined it. No serious economist disputes that her ideological adherence to monetary theory made the recession of the early 80s worse. Whole swathes of perfectly viable manufacturing companies were killed off by record interest rates and a high pound. Unemployment has never returned to the level it was in the 70s and Thatcher created an underclass that the Government is throwing money at today. Her greatest success was in depoliticising most of the country, so they swallow nonsense like she made the country a better place and are only concerned with getting the latest gadget and what talentless celebrities are doing.

Now whole swathes of viable companies are being killed despite the record low interest rates because they are unable to get credit . If unemployment was such a barrier to people getting jobs , why are whole swathes of eastern europeans now filling british jobs. Generally they work harder and have a desire to improve themselves. Take a million eastern europeans out of the equation and there would have been a million more jobs for the brits. The brits didn't want those jobs though , many would far rather stay on benefits and watch telly all day.

The last point is complete rubbish as people have always wanted the latest gadget and what the celebrity gossip is , the only thing that has changed is the medium used.

[Galapogos]

I knew nothing about Thatcher, but after briefly reading some of Keith's points I know feel I agree with him and know enough about Thatcher to support her in her bid for re-election.

[surviva316]

The man can speak. They don't make political speeches like these any more.

I recently watched a documentary about urbanization, which included protests in Germany about tearing down some old trees. This one hippy was giving an fiery speech in his native language, and as much as the subtitles said ~"Boy howdy trees are awesome. I love the color green, and hippy love peaciness are the best, most cuddly of times,"~ I couldn't help but cringe. I think I've been completely hardened against ever listening to any impassioned German, regardless of the translation.

[surviva316]

Everything Hitler did enabled his terror ---> Everything Hitler did is terrible ---> Hitler gave great speeches and that's terrible ---> Thatcher gave great speeches and she's terrible.

There's some poor logic in there somewhere. I can't tell if its the arrows or the words or all of it but it's there.

Not everything Hitler did was terrible. He breathed oxygen, he kept an omnivorous, spent 100% of his life not clutching at his own eyeballs and plucking them out, etc.

I undoubtedly share more similarities with Hitler than a mouse does, and almost all of those similarities that I hold are generally deemed "good" things that make me a more worthwhile conglomerate of particles than mice are.

For what it's worth (unfortunately it was worth a lot in his time), he also spoke well and had a good handle on using extra-verbal communication to express exactly what he was trying to say. This is generally quite a good tool, though it's obviously being used for quite wretched ends when that's convincing you to kill everyone who isn't a white, straight gentile.

[surviva316]

Hitler was a vegetarian, whatever. I could have used any other thing that's generally true of most humans ever, but whatever.