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FMLwin422

03-27-2010, 10:50 PM Post subject: Operation: To Simply Get Better!

#1 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Hello Fellow FTRers,

My name is Francesca, I am 19, and undecided to what I plan on doing for the rest of my life. I decided to post to create some dialog between you all to better my understanding of the game and therefore improve. I plan on posting my progress and once I get my PT3 up and running again I will post some stats. I have learned a lot so far from reading posts and occasionally posting, but I think its about time to step my game up here!
A little about myself: I have been playing for about 3 months, and I play 2nl. I started playing $1 SnGs back in January and did really well, and once I felt like I had a good sized BR I moved to cash 6m. The first 3 days I played I made 15 bis and got super excited, and I have been struggling to really breakthrough since. Think I caught the FPS virus. I moved up to 5nl yesterday after finally being rolled, and then proceeded to lose a couple bis, tilt my ass off, and move back down. Ironically it was my best and worst day ever. I have come to really love/become obsessed with NLHE, because I really enjoy the logical/mathematical/money making aspect of it. Although I am still working on improving in all 3 areas. I try to play every day for a couple hours, although in between work and all my other daily activities sometimes its hard to do. I also read pretty much everything I can get my hands on and discuss with a few of my friends who are much better then me. I would specifically like to get better at the mathematical aspect of poker i.e. Pot odds, implied odds etc. I understand how to do it, but applying it mid hand stresses me out sometimes and I freeze up. I am thinking its probably due to my inexperience. Soo....my immediate goals are:

1. Keep my tilting in check
2. Improve reading hands and calculating pot odds etc in the moment
3. Move up to 5nl within the next month
4. Get a good enough understanding of the game to feel comfortable posting regularly and debating on subjects
5. Stay motivated even if I am discouraged (I figured posting regularly on here would help)

So I would love to hear anyones comments or advice or questions as I continue to post! Thanks for reading

-FML (not fuck my life, initials)

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

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ledfut

03-28-2010, 04:30 AM

#2 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 62

good luck

I am attempting a similar goal as yours. I am starting with trying to memorize hand odds (pair vs. pair, pair vs. overcards, ect.) as it is the most essential part in starting the equation. Go through hand samples and write out the math. Eventually it should become second nature.

know the enemy and know yourself, and in 100 battles you will never be in peril.

know yourself but ignorant of the enemy, your chances of winning are half.

if ignorant of yourself and of your enemy and you will always be in danger.

donkbee

03-28-2010, 06:08 AM

#3 (permalink)

WELP

Join Date: May 2005

Location: so close but so far

Posts: 3,604

welcome to FTR, good luck with your goals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Why poker fucks with our heads: it's the master that beats you for bringing in the paper, then gives you a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

Kijjo

03-28-2010, 07:26 AM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Hey FML, as long as you continue to try to improve, I'm sure you will. You sound like a young player with a great future. Want to know why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

I moved up to 5nl yesterday after finally being rolled, and then proceeded to lose a couple bis, tilt my ass off, and move back down.

As far as the math mid-hand, it becomes much easier with time. First you grasp, then you get proficient at it (even if you're stressing), then you move toward mastering it. Eventually it just feels right or wrong. You hardly ever actually calculate stuff because you've trained your gut to sound the warning. It would help you to run some calculations for your own hands (since you're staring at your own cards, you KNOW what they are) when you've folded and you're just watching the other players finish the hand. Even if you've got multiple tables going, just watch your invisible cards and when you've got a draw on one of them, do the math and calculate where the point is that is the max you could call without being -EV. Then when the turn card comes, re-evaluate. This is a great way to stay focussed on the game and improve your skills while you might be tempted to be lazy.
Anyways, look forward to hearing about your progress.

Donk Skills:
#1 The bluff call
#2 The Drawing-Dead Value Bet
__________________________________________________ _____________
"What we do in life echoes in eternity."
Maximus Decimus Meridius - Gladiator

FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 07:11 PM

#5 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Thanks all for wishing me luck!

Kijjo-
I appreciate the support and advice. It is nice to hear I have some potential! :P I will certainly regularly be posting my progress and will be very interested to hear the feedback.

FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 10:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

So today I came to a conclusion after looking over some of my past hands. I am way to passive when I hit a great hand. I have no problem bluffing the shit out of 2nl, but when it comes to c/r-c/sing my set, or some nut hand I am too afraid my opponent will fold and so I revert to betting small, or checking the flop and attempting to get more value hoping they hit a piece of a board on the turn. I think my pattern of inconsistency has been a really big leak thus far and I am going to try to fix that. I think the way to beat 2/5nl is just playing really straight forward and not getting too fancy. I have spent a lot of time researching metagame and discussing it and unfortunately I just don't think it applies to those microstakes as much. So, I look forward to being able to use it in the future.
Below I am going to post my hand of the day and take a crack at ranges, so I would love some feedback. Thanks!

Full Tilt Poker Game #19589923850: Table Bravo (6 max) - $0.01/$0.02 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:11:11 ET - 2010/03/26
Seat 1: Cytack ($1.05)
Seat 2: popof666 ($1.05)
Seat 3: Hero ($2.12)
Seat 4: EveryoneIsSolid ($2.94)
Seat 5: tumba10 ($1.05)
Seat 6: keyplayer1441 ($3.66)
Cytack posts the small blind of $0.01
popof666 posts the big blind of $0.02
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ks Kd]
Hero raises to $0.06
EveryoneIsSolid calls $0.06
tumba10 calls $0.06
keyplayer1441 folds
Cytack folds
popof666 calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [Kc Qs 7d]
popof666 checks
Hero checks
EveryoneIsSolid has 15 seconds left to act
EveryoneIsSolid checks
tumba10 checks
*** TURN *** [Kc Qs 7d] [5s]
popof666 checks
Hero bets $0.16
EveryoneIsSolid folds
tumba10 calls $0.16
popof666 folds
*** RIVER *** [Kc Qs 7d 5s] [Jd]
Hero has 15 seconds left to act
Hero bets $0.46
tumba10 raises to $0.83, and is all in

Flop: I don't have much information on the villain unfortunately, besides everyone at my table was playing like pretty standard 2nl loose passive fish. Finally got my pt3 up today, but this hand was from yesterday. So, calling my raise pre flop could be a huge range of things, but after everyone checks the flop, I am thinking they did not hit any part of it. This is a situation I run into frequently, I immediately revert to the c/r option, although I am finding 2nl donks are more likely to be calling stations then bluff a lot and be aggressive. So I think in the future it may be better to bet here. This has happened to be so frequently that I feel like I am losing a lot of value by checking in these spots.
Turn: So I am bet here for value. I am guessing after the villain calls he has a lot of pocket pairs in his range, possibly an A5 type hand or even floating with Ax. There is a draw out now, and its possible the villain would call here hoping to hit it on the river.
River: When the Jd comes on the river it does complete a straight. However, I felt like there was a very small possibility even 9s10s would have played that way although it is still a possibility. So when I get shoved over by my short stacked opponent I feel like its a snap call (very +EV) being that only 1 hand is beating me right?

Let me know what you guys think about that. I hope my thought process made sense there, and I am more then open to suggestion.

Check out my OP thread Operation: To Simply Get Better!

"I think it's pretty cool that a girl is so into poker. Any chance of us getting some nude pics?"

<Carroters> "Dude, it's a chick......that plays poker. You any idea how much I'd pay for one of these?"

scfc_andy15

03-28-2010, 10:32 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Feb 2009

Posts: 123

Pre-flop I would raise to 4x plus x for every limper so would be 8 cents, I would definately bet that flop 100% of the time with 4 people in the pot, a bet on the flop would probably get called from Qx, 7x, QQ, 77, J10, Kx, AJ, some pocket pairs - the point is that is hugely important at $2NL the bet when you have a good hand even if they fold you made the right bet as they will call with hands that make it way +ve in the long run.

Would post in the beginners digest aswell as it gets more traffic.

Good luck btw, race to 5NL

"Whether he likes it or not, a man's character is stripped bare at the poker table; if the other players read him better than he does, he has only himself to blame. Unless he is both able and prepared to see himself as others do, flaws and all, he will be a loser in cards, as in life."

FMLwin422

03-28-2010, 11:25 PM

#8 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Haha thanks for your help andy, and good luck to you! see you at 5nl :P

Dex

03-29-2010, 02:34 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Bringing the mind home.

Posts: 172

If you want a free read on EveryoneIsSolid, their account was only created and tracked on Poker Table Ratings after this thread on 2+2: No Money Heads Up Everyone's Solid. Way to give away that you're an active member of a massive poker forum. That's something I'd love to know about someone as soon as they are at my table.

I agree about raising to 4x UTG, and definitely cbet the flop. If someone has a gutter, an OESD, or if you've coolered a hand like top pair, top 2 pair or a set, you want to start getting money in. Especially if they're gonna check to let someone else bet too

River is pretty inconsequential. Not a lot beats us and villain is so short it doesn't matter.

You asked about things you can do to improve, posting hands, reading comments and posting your own is a good start. I definitely recommend playing around with Poker Stove or an equivalent, trying different hands and ranges against eachother on different kinds of boards. I found this enormously useful, and it doesn't take long to discover things like AdJd is a 51% favourite over a range of QQ/KK on Js4d5d.

FMLwin422

03-29-2010, 06:27 AM

#10 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Thank you Dex! I cant get pokerstove on my mac, do you know a good equivalent, that would be very helpful.

FMLwin422

03-29-2010, 06:31 AM

#11 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

And by the way that thread....WOW haha

Kijjo

03-29-2010, 06:00 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

I'm ok with hoping for a c/r situaiton in this hand because the board is so dry. The problem is that you're right, 2NL often doesn't produce the result you're hoping for here. The fact that you only get 1 caller on the turn tells you that you likely would have taken it down of the flop with the same bet I think - I think he's often coming along because you checked the first time so he thinks you're bluffing or really weak. Although you're hoping for a bigger pot with such a great hand, at that point it was 25 cents, which is more than 10% of your stack, so at least it's decent.

STHollywood

03-29-2010, 07:09 PM

#13 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Dec 2007

Location: New York

Posts: 107

I think it's pretty cool that a girl is so into poker. Any chance of us getting some nude pics?

ISF while watching me play: "Wow, you're really butchering this."

FMLwin422

03-29-2010, 07:21 PM

#14 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Haha!! Not a chance :P But thanks, more girls should be into poker in my opinion!

and btw, i think im going to put that comment in my sig haha

FMLwin422

03-29-2010, 08:35 PM

#15 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

Yeah, I am generally just starting to feel like the best way for me to beat these stakes is just make simple plays. Most people at 2nl are not thinking about what my hand is, or why I am logically doing something. They are loose passive stations. So it makes more sense for me to just play consistently straight forward.

Jack Sawyer

03-30-2010, 08:57 AM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2007

Location: Old School

Posts: 2,535

Jack Sawyer will become famous soon enough

Unlucky initials though, but I wish you luck in your endeavors Francesca!

My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...

Quote:

VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.

Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI

FMLwin422

04-01-2010, 04:00 PM

#17 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Thank you!!

I had a fantastic poker lesson yesterday and recognized a lot of my leaks, and since I am sitting at work doing absolutely NOTHING I think its a great time to post.
One thing I realized is that I am getting way too far ahead of myself at the stakes I am playing. I have the information to beat the micros, but I choose to play in a way that just doesn't make sense because for some reason in my eyes that's "good poker". I also tightened up my calling range, and I am starting to spend more time looking at the entire situation before I make a decision (i.e. stack sizes, any notes, how many people in the hand). I realized that I started auto piloting a lot and repeating the same lines because they had worked for me in the past. I feel a million times better today, and I am going to continue to implement these principles and hopefully gain back the bis I lost pretty soon. Unfortunately, I have also been running terribly, but I feel like I have been playing well and it doesn't bother me as much. Another thing I recognized is to notice when I am tilting. What upsets me the most is when I feel like I played something really badly, and I get very obviously frustrated. I can recognize this and stop. Other times, I get myself into a bad situation and even after its over there is some frustration bubbling under the surface. During my lesson I would mention how it annoyed me that x happened a few times until my teacher finally said, "You are tilting, and you need to take a 5 minute break." It surprised me because I didn't notice that I was actually so focused on how the last hand annoyed me that even in a slight way I wasn't playing my best. So, I took the advice and felt much more on top of my game when I resumed. Overall, things are looking up, my BR is not so happy but I am going to keep a positive attitude and keep grinding that 2nl!

In other news...
I am heading out to California in a month from today and I cannot wait! I am really looking forward to doing more outdoor activities to balance out how much I sit on my ass and play poker :P I'm going to go back to school and start getting my life in order, so I am also super pumped about that. Also, I'm going to road trip up the east coast and visit all my friends/family in new york, dc, and vermont. This summer is going to be great, and I am really looking forward to it!

FMLwin422

04-02-2010, 04:50 PM

#18 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Goodmorning

1) I can't stop sneezing
2) I can't stop changing my avatar.
3) I am bored out of my mind at work

aka_red

04-02-2010, 05:55 PM

#19 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: house

Posts: 903

Are you familiar with IRC?

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

FMLwin422

04-02-2010, 08:22 PM

#20 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Yeah, although I haven't been on there yet. I need to download it.

FMLwin422

04-02-2010, 08:38 PM

#21 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Hmm..doesnt seem to work on a mac.

Stacks

04-02-2010, 09:04 PM

#22 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2008

Location: Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

Posts: 2,605

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

Hmm..doesnt seem to work on a mac.

Tragedy.

kiwiMark

04-02-2010, 09:48 PM

#23 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2009

Location: Nu Zuland bru

Posts: 939

IRC: Colloquy: IRC, SILC & ICB Client

As for PokerStove, if you're computer-minded you can get the windows version working with (dar)WINE: Darwine - Download

FMLwin422

04-02-2010, 10:14 PM

#24 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Awesome, thank you.

aka_red

04-02-2010, 11:21 PM

#25 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: house

Posts: 903

irc is pretty much the nuts high.

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

aka_red

04-02-2010, 11:21 PM

#26 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: house

Posts: 903

Quote:

Originally Posted by reDZill4

irc is pretty much the nuts high.

like a3o on kkkk2

very opposite from 23s on kkkk2

[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face

daven

04-03-2010, 07:03 AM

#27 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,805

FTR has a hand converter. Use it when posting hands and you'll get more feedback Poker Hand History HH Converter: Full Tilt Poker,PokerStars,PartyPoker

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

and discuss with a few of my friends who are much better then me.

Sounds good, do be careful with this though, better is super-subjective - are they winning players at your stakes or stakes above where you're currently at?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

I would specifically like to get better at the mathematical aspect of poker i.e. Pot odds, implied odds etc. I understand how to do it, but applying it mid hand stresses me out sometimes and I freeze up.

reading the beginners circle stickies is good here. Also, look at posted hands and think of the odds as you read the hand history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

I have no problem bluffing the shit out of 2n

ask yourself why you're doing this. 2nl = solid preflop hand selection, occasional bluffs, and loads of value betting...

Quote:

Originally Posted by FMLwin422

I have spent a lot of time researching metagame and discussing it and unfortunately I just don't think it applies to those microstakes as much.

exactly.

The KK Hand, ok, pre-flop just click pot means you're raising to 0.07 not 0.06. Flop, pot is 21, you have the ultra-nuts, now bet. 13 is good.

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

FMLwin422

04-03-2010, 06:10 PM

#28 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Thank you for your advice, daven

In response to your 2nd thought, I was referring to either. Preferably winning players above my stakes because that means that they already know how to beat the stakes below them. Although like I stated in my post w/ the KK hand, getting too far advanced for my stakes is not beneficial. So, I am working on applying the proper information.

Kijjo

04-04-2010, 07:03 AM

#29 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

I'm taking about a week off of playing tourneys and grinding some 2NL on FT for the Take2 bonus (I'm not really a cash guy). I'm baffled every session. Totally and amazingly stunned by how horrible it's possible to play poker. I'm seriously at a loss for words.

FMLwin422

04-04-2010, 09:10 PM

#30 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

This is the third time I have tried to post this, I need a new computer.

Anyways, I have been really busy (partying) recently, but I am back on the grind with some new goals.
1) Earn Bronze Iron man, will be posting my progress. I need to do about 1200 hands a day to do that. Which around work etc will be a challenge, but I am looking forward to it.
2) Not going to check my BR for 3 days. I have issues with checking it mid sessions.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($7.85)
MP ($5.44)
Button ($3.02)
SB ($1.25)
Hero (BB) ($2.12)

Preflop: Hero is BB with

UTG calls $0.02, MP calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, UTG calls $0.08, MP calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.31)

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP checks

Turn: ($0.31)

(3 players)
Hero bets $0.18, UTG calls $0.18, MP calls $0.18

River: ($0.85)

(3 players)
Hero??

Pre Flop: Villains limp/calling range is, {22-99, A2s-A9s, J10s, Q10s, K10s, QJs, KQs}
Anything I left out I am guessing would be originally raised.

Flop: I checked here because I don't think I am getting called with worse enough for it to be profitable.

Turn: I bet here for value, and I think I am getting called here with a lot of worse Qs and draws.

River: ??

I am interested in what people think of my bet sizing as well...
Let me know!

FMLwin422

04-04-2010, 09:11 PM

#31 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

Haha I know what you mean, I am always giving people too much credit.

dranger7070

04-05-2010, 11:13 AM

#32 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Location: Wake up in the mornin feelin' like P. Diddy

Posts: 2,524

dranger7070 has a little shameless behaviour in the past

In your hand, you say you don't want to bet because not enough worse is calling. 2 things on this:

1.) There's actually a decent number of worse hands that are calling, Ax (esp with a BDFD), TJ, QT, QJ, missed overs like KQ, KJ, etc.

2.) There are 3 reasons to bet at any time:
-The first is for value, pretty straightforward no need to explain I think.
-The second is as a bluff. If you think he's folding more than bet/(bet+pot) then fire away.
-The third is to pick up dead money in the pot.

This is one of those situations where it takes in two of the 3 reasons to bet. 1 is for value from worse hands that can't find the fold for at least one street, the other is to make him fold out his SCs, some overs, Ax, Kx, etc. You don't want to give him a free card and allow him to catch on you. By betting you're protecting your equity in the pot vs the weaker part of his range that you won't get value from anyways, but still has a chance to draw out if you don't bet.

Anyways, good luck with this and lol at your initials being FML. I thought it was fuck my life.

Keith

04-05-2010, 12:11 PM

#33 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

if you raise pre , cbet the flop , You're repping a big hand raising from the BB so bet about 2/3 pot. If you get called and whiff the turn you can always check then. You hit the turn so be 2/3 again. You have to make the draws pay to get there. If you bet too small you make it less of a mistake for the draws to call or if really small/checking then its correct for the draws to continue. Betting lke this would get you headsup probably at the river and then its a real shitty spot.I'd probably bet 1/3 of the pot and fold to a raise.

Kijjo

04-05-2010, 04:25 PM

#34 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2008

Location: Alabama

Posts: 554

Being in the 2NL zone this week, I'll tell you how I'd play this hand (right or wrong).
Pre - same.
Flop - cbet is player dependent. If I don't have any info on him, I cbet 20 cents.
Turn - as played, cbet 20 cents (18's so close I don't think it matters).
River - check call. I tend to wimp out in these spots because the range on these guys is so ridiculous and they'll pay way too much all along to try to hit a draw. I'd call anything up to about 60 cents here against most opponents.

FMLwin422

04-05-2010, 05:00 PM

#35 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2010

Posts: 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by dranger7070

Thanks for the feedback, dranger! I agree with you here, i should have absolutely bet the flop. When I played this I wasn't unsure what to do with paired flops, but I after discussing it with spoon I understand a lot better.

FMLwin422

04-05-2010, 05:25 PM

#36 (permalink)

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Posts: 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kijjo

Yeah, agreed here. It turned out he hit his straight on the river. Betting the flop may have prevented that.

Keith

04-05-2010, 06:52 PM

#37 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Nov 2008

Posts: 1,336

read my post about the river and think about the difference in the two approaches

FMLwin422

04-05-2010, 07:51 PM

#38 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

read my post about the river and think about the difference in the two approaches

Sorry Keith, must have missed your comment. But if you look at his range, I dont think a river bet is getting called with much worse here. If he had that wierd draw then he just hit it. If he was calling me down with trip 8s I am beat. J10 has me beat, and I doubt any air would have gotten this far. The only thing I am beating that may call is a worse Q, like Q7, and even then id be surprised if they called. I think c/c is the best choice.

Carroters

04-05-2010, 08:24 PM

#39 (permalink)

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AQ Hand

c/c this river is pretty bad here. The reason for this is that like you said yourself, there is likely very little air left in his range at this point. Therefore, he just can't have very many bluffs when he bets this river. So his betting range will have AQ crushed since he wont be betting worse Qs or any other worse hands for value. He can have missed clubs but I don't think that makes up enough combos to make c/c the river +EV especially if you don't have a read that he bluffs these. Also, people will be in general far less inclined to bluff busted flush draws multiway. There are probably more random Js than club,club combos in their betting ranges by far.

If you still want to c/c this river, make me a range of hands that one of them bets here that you have sufficient equity to call say a pot sized bet against. I don't think you'll be able to put very many weak hands in his range at all compared to all the combos of 8s and Js.

I would go ahead and block bet this river in order to induce a call from Qx or whatever showdown value types hands he'll be checking back if you check; fish can't resist good odds with top pair on the river very often.

I think c/f this river is easily better than c/c and I wouldn't mind this at all if you had a read that the guy wasn't stationy and would fold all worse hands to a bet. This being 2NL though where people wont be folding top pair too often I much prefer betting.

As for your bet sizing. Bet the turn a little harder. If they're going to call with weaker Qs and draws, they're goiung to call a pot sized bet just as often so grab more value from them and make them make an even bigger mistake to call with a random draw.

Hope this helps.

Micro2Macro

04-05-2010, 08:38 PM

#40 (permalink)

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Carroters

04-05-2010, 08:45 PM

#41 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

this blog is hotter than the sun

Dude, it's a chick......that plays poker. You any idea how much I'd pay for one of these?

FMLwin422

04-05-2010, 09:18 PM

#42 (permalink)

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You guys are giving me so many quotes to add to my signature. lol

Carroters-
Thanks for your feedback, and you have a good point. I think overall I kind of butchered this hand. But I think I would be counting on missed draws trying to take down the pot for the most part, which maybe doesn't make that much sense.
So you think a thin value bet is good, like 1/3 pot or something?

Carroters

04-05-2010, 09:49 PM

#43 (permalink)

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Yeah I mean some spots are good to c/c because missed draws can make up a lot of your opponents betting range on some rivers. It's just here the 2 key things that make c/c not so god are that 1. We're still multiway so bluffs from missed draws are less likely and 2. There are plenty of combinations of made strong hands in your opponents ranges for betting this river.

If you were against 1 aggressive opponent and all the draws had missed (the river was an offsuit 4 or something) then it could be a good spot to c/c. At these stakes though I think value betting whenever possible is usually a good idea. People just tend to call with a much wider range than they bet with themselves.

I think even betting like half pot is a fine size here and should get looked up by the hands you're trying to get called by.

Keith

04-05-2010, 10:11 PM

#44 (permalink)

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carroters has covered a lot of the reasons.But also .....1/3 pot bet here would be 30 cents ......it will fold out some hands that beat you such as 2pair , possible trip 8's etc as they'll put you on a J and the straight. if they raise you , its an easy fold and you have saved 30 cents compared to the amount you were willing to check call and there will be some people dumb enough to call with worse anyway who might have checked behind.

FMLwin422

04-06-2010, 02:17 AM

#45 (permalink)

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Yeah, I ended betting .60, for value. But I don't know how much credit I can give most 2nl players for putting me on a range really. Most of the time I feel like they are only concerned with their own hand, and not worrying so much about me. I highly doubt a 1/3 pot sized bet would fold out trip 8s or two pair.

Keith

04-06-2010, 05:24 AM

#46 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

it will fold out some hands that beat you such as 2pair , possible trip 8's etc as they'll put you on a J and the straight. if they raise you , its an easy fold and you have saved 30 cents compared to the amount you were willing to check call and there will be some people dumb enough to call with worse anyway who might have checked behind.

I'm not saying that every player will fold their trips and two pairs , but some will. Players atthe micros generally there biggest leak is that they call too much. In this case it would save you money compared to what they will bet if they are first to act. By making the bet yourself into more than one player they have to allow for the fact that you may have made the straight and alter how they react.

Don't forget , you don't have the nuts , 8x,jx,QQ,KK,AA,99,TT all have you beaten. To a certain extent you are just playing your cards as well,as you are not giving them credit for trying to let them put you on a hand.Some of them will be like you , reading forums trying to get better and willl also then be thinking that you have them beat.

Even the Jx hands have to be wary that you may have a full house.Whilst its true its not going to work on every 2nl player at getting better hands to fold, it wil help limit the amount you lose when you are beaten ,compared to how much you are willing to call. it gets more and more important to be thinking like this as you move up and the standard of player improves.

edit: Also don't take it that you should always be looking to minimize how much you lose , its in situations like this where i think you will be beaten a lot of the time that it plays its part.

FMLwin422

04-06-2010, 03:51 PM

#47 (permalink)

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Yeah I see your point here. I rarely give any 2nl player credit for that, but I play 2nl and I am pretty aware of whats going on, so I cant make that assumption all the time. I appreciate your well thought out advice

What stakes do you play?

Keith

04-06-2010, 09:34 PM

#48 (permalink)

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I'm about 10k hands into 25NL and starting to get comfortable now that i'm getting used to the change in play, raise /bet sizes , the increased aggression and better players making it harder to get paid off.

FMLwin422

07-14-2010, 06:49 PM

#49 (permalink)

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It sure has been a while since I posted something on here. Sorry about falling off the face of the earth. So a little update....
I moved out west to california a couple months ago and have just been swamped with getting a job and settling into my apartment. In addition I just went back to school. However, Im still playing just havent been able to update. Things are going well, and I am continuing to have a good win-rate but am still having trouble grinding out of 2/5nl. However since I have come back to it, I have been doing better and I think it was good for me to take a step back, reflect and then dive in again.

How is everyone else doing?
I am going to be sorting through my hand history and posting some things but I am interested to hear everyone else's progress. Hopefully, I can get back into the swing of things and continuing posting as regularly as possible.
Thanks for reading

Imthenewfish

07-15-2010, 12:29 AM

#50 (permalink)

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