top 11 mistakes of live limit players
Fnord has a nice post in the digest on "why you suck at limit". I thought I'd do a follow-up post based on what I see playing live. These are the most common mistakes players make in live games in California. If you have any of these leaks, plug them:
1. Too much slowplay. This is actually the thing that inspired me to post this. Today, a pretty nitty player raised pre-flop, was called by a couple of players, and flopped AKQ rainbow. He checked the flop, and checked again on the turn. When he finally bet his set of kings on the river, one of his opponents had runner-runnered a flush.
I see this all the time. It is a huge leak to automatically slowplay big hands. Slowplay is usually a -EV play, both because it results in less bets in the pot and also because it gives villains free cards to suck out on you (or to get into a position where they have a better draw and can call the turn and hit it on the river). Slowplay is only +EV when villains are highly unlikely to suck out and they are likely to put more bets in on later streets and whereas they will fold or put in less bets if you bet the flop. This happens, but it doesn't happen nearly as often as players think.
2. Fearing monsters under the bed, especially when the monsters do not seem to be within a player's range. Today, I was in the BB at a 4-8 table while waiting for my seat in 8-16, and I had Q2. Flop was QJT, I bet, and got one caller from middle position. Turn was a 2, I bet again, middle position called. River was a T, I checked, middle position checked. Middle position turned over AK(!!!!). Leaving aside the stupid pre-flop limp, think about this. Are you really afraid I have a full house after I checked the river? This player is ahead 999 times out of 1000 in that situation, and I'm calling heads up with queens and tens! Bet!
If the only hands that beat you are monsters, be very aggressive unless and until there is strong evidence that the monsters exist.
3. Being unwilling to fold or call down good hands that are obviously beat. This is the opposite of monsters under the bed. But if you have AhAd, the board is Ks9s8s6s7c, and there's a bet and a raise on the river from two non-insane players, fold your aces. You're beat. Guess what? Sometimes pocket aces lose.
Remember, bets on the turn and river are twice as large as bets on the flop. So while it's important to call down hands when you are getting decent odds to call, it can be very costly to call down raised pots on the turn and the river. Be realistic about your hand's chances when you need to call 2 bets on the later streets.
4. Chasing with 2 pair against an obvious flush or straight without correct pot / implied odds. This is a subset of the "unwilling to fold good hands" syndrome. It's usually fine to call with any set or trips against an obvious flush or straight, as these hands have 10 outs. Two pair only has 4 outs, though. This means that you need 11-1 to call. Lots of pots don't get to 11BB on the turn, and if you need to call 2BB, very few pots get to 22BB at that point.
5. Playing too many suited cards pre-flop. Suited cards have about a 1 in 11 chance of flopping a flush draw. It doesn't happen that often. That means the other 10 of 11 times, you are playing a crappy hand that, even if it hits the flop, is going to make a lot of second-best hands. Yes, in a very loose game, you can open up your range with respect to playing suited cards in late position. But I see way too much J5s in middle position, or 94s against a blind steal.
6. Having too wide a range for defending blinds in tight games. This costs players a lot of money and they aren't even aware of it. There's a type of player who is, for whatever reason, truly offended that anyone would ever take any of THEIR money with a trash hand and position. So they are resolved to never let it happen. They call, or even 3-bet, with lousy hands, because dad-gummit, they are never going to let you steal their blinds.
Your blind-defense range should be a couple of shades narrower than the likely stealing range of the guy attempting the blind steal. Why? Because you are out of position. Blind defense isn't an excuse to play trash cards out of position. Because they are still trash cards out of position.
Some players try to seize the initiative by 3-betting, but that just costs you more chips. In addition, even if you have the initiative, the other guy still has position, which means he gets the last word. You can spew a lot of chips 3-betting the blind steal and then betting all 3 streets, only to get raised on the river when the emperor had no clothes.
It's OK. Let them steal your blinds every now and then. It's part of the game. When you have a hand that's ahead of their blind-stealing range, THEN defend. And if you hit the flop, devise a plan to extract the maximum of chips from the blind stealer. But don't defend just because you think it's crappy that some guy is raising you with K7o. That's part of the game.
7. Playing too many unsuited connectors in loose games. There are, of course, games that are so loose that these become playable. The reality is, if you are at a table of fish and all 6 players limp in front of you, and you know that the SB and the BB are just calling and checking, you can practically play anything. But unsuited connectors (other than broadways) are pretty lousy in 3- or 4-way pot. And if you get raised, you end up putting in a couple of bets on a trash hand that isn't going to hit a lot of flops.
8. Misplaying AK. First of all, if AK isn't in your raising range, it needs to be. It needs to be in your 3-betting and capping range too, unless you have a pretty specific read that the player raising in front of you has a very narrow raising range.
Second, if you hit the flop, AK automatically gives you top pair and top kicker. And even if it was a raised or 3-bet or capped pot, the chances of anyone having AA or KK are very small if you hit an A or a K. Usually, they have queens or jacks or tens or AQ or something. Bet the flop! Raise the flop! Re-raise the flop! You're ahead!
Third, if you miss the flop, AK is, as a friend of mine puts it, the "nut no pair". This means you beat flush draws and straight draws, and it also means you have outs against any other pair except one formed by Ax or Kx (less likely because you have an ace and a king). It's still a great hand.
Fourth, if the board has QJ, QT, or JT on it, AK is an extremely powerful hand, because now you have outs to the nut straight as well as TPTK with either the A or the K.
Finally, if you have a flush draw with AK, that's also a great hand. Lots and lots of outs.
I see lots of players give up on AK. Sure you need to if it's clear that one or more players have you crushed, but when you have AK, you have at least a 50 percent chance of beating any hand other than AA or KK (which are both unlikely). This means you win a lot of hands with it if you can stay in the hand (and your pre-flop raise will pump the pot and give you pot odds to do it).
9. Taking draws too far in small pots. You need 4-1 to call a bet with a flush draw, and 5-1 with an OESD. You need 11-1 to call with a gutshot. If you are behind and have a pair, you need 9-1 to call. Especially in tight, nitty games, you often don't have the pot odds to see these hands to the river and sometimes you don't even have the odds to call the flop. Now, obviously, if your read tells you it could be a bluff or semi-bluff, it can be OK to call or raise your pair without correct odds. But if you are just calling to make 2 pair or trips, don't unless you are going to get paid off if you hit it.
10. Making too many loose calls of raises and re-raises pre-flop. There are basically two types of playable pre-flop hands (with some overlap)-- hands that play well heads up and hands that play well in multi-way pots. An example of the former is AJ, and an example of the latter is 76s. If there's a raise and a re-raise from non-maniacs, your AJ is crushed. Even if you pair one of your cards, you are going to be beat and spew chips a fair amount of the time.
As for the 76s, if a tight player raises under the gun and it folds around to you on the button with that, you need to fold it. Yeah I know, suited connectors are the bomb. But in all likelihood, you are going to end up heads up. And your hand doesn't play well heads up against a range that has you crushed.
Now, in some games, you can "invite" other players in by calling raised pots with your suited connectors. If that's your read and it works, fine. But if you find yourself heads up against pre-flop raisers on a frequent basis with a speculative hand, you aren't respecting raises enough.
11. Failing to keep their stack deep and rebuy as necessary. The table stakes rule almost never works to the advantage of short stacks in limit. The reason is that unlike no limit, where often you get your chips in all at once with a strong hand, in limit, you are given the chance to slowly get your chips in while seeing what happens on each street. Thus, the limit player who is ahead on the flop but gets sucked out on the turn or the river can often read that and slow down or even fold if necessary. The limit player who gets all-in never gets the chance to process that information.
I am not really a fan of the short stack strategy in no limit either. But at least in no limit, the short stack protects the player from taking a big loss from having a monster, second best hand or a suckout. In limit, the betting structure gives you a lot of that protection already by allowing you to stop bleeding chips. Thus, you are left only with the disadvantages of short stacks and not the advantages.
Not only do players buy in too light, but they don't rebuy when they should. If you buy in for 25 BB and your stack dwindles to 5 BB (which, by the way, can happen in limit even if you are playing decent poker, because of the variance), you need to replenish it. Countless times I have seen the scenario where the player bleeds chips due to card death, doesn't rebuy, and then finally hits his nut flush when he's got only 4BB in his stack. Don't let that happen to you. If you really can't afford the rebuy, it's time to stop and to move down in stakes.
As I said, these are the big mistakes that I witness day in and day out in live play. I am sure there are others that folks can contribute here as well.
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Originally Posted by LawDude
