No fold'em hold'em... at the casino

well i just got back from losing about $60 at the 3-6$ table

i CANT seem to beat the old people at the 3-6 table no matter what i seem to do...

if i play aggressive, conservative, by the book, my own style - it doesnt matter, i end up getting bad beat after bad beat by jackasses who dont fold and catch shit on the river

all night, i have 2 pair, beatin by a set or straight
ill get a straight, beat by a flush
a flush, beat by a boat

not just a normal flush draw or straight draw, its runner runners they catch every time!

no matter what i do, i raise, check, call... i just loose..

i had A,Ks - bet it out on the flop, i was on the button, everyone checked to me, i bet, turn - everyone checks to me, i bet (hoping they fold), again i still have 1 caller, the river, he checks to me, so i just check cause this guy doesnt fold

showdown and he has the lowest pair on the board... a pair of 3's, 6 high...
now why he calls till the river with lowest pair is beyond me...

any advice for beating the 3-6 would be nice
thx

LOL, man I know what that's like. I'm sure you can beat that game if you play enough, the odds will eventually go to the better player. Of course, that may take a million years. That's why I gave up on limit and moved to no limit.

My suggestion would be to move to no limit/pot limit, or perhaps increase your stakes...

I used to only play limit, but it got too frustrating... good luck to you, try not to go postal if you stick with that $3-6 game!!

Have you read Lee Jones "Winning Low Limit Holdem" ? Its a pretty book good and recognised by most of the low limt players as staple play. Also bluffing is almost a waste of time in low limit holdem, you are just throwing your money away.

http://slicer.headsupclub.com:3455/16/Home

Read it, re-read it. It helped me with No Fold'em Stud. Never played in a No Fold'em hold'em game before but looking forward to the chance.

Avoid drawing to overs in a big multi-pot. You got pot odds hitting your pair with pre-flop betting, dump it. In a big multi-pot the best made hand and the best draw dominate, usually everyone else is pretty much paying those two players off. Drawing to a big pair doesn't cut it.

I think a no fold'em strat looks something like...

Any position:
AK AQ KQ

Tens or better suited

88 and better

Axs Kxs Qxs?

T9s? 98s? other tight connectors?

In position + blinds limp with any pocket pair if you have several limpers in front giving you good implied pot odds on your set.

Raise pre-flop like a mad man, even with the second best hand if random hands are calling. Try to raise a lot, fold on the flop but only after then if it truely looks hopeless.

my advice is switch to NL/PL... the odds are better.

not only do you need a smaller bankroll, but your margins of winning are bigger too.

I had the same thing in my last 4-8 game. It gets frustrating. I went and read the site you recommended and I am confident that those strategies will work. I especailly like the strong tactics preflop. It took that site to get it into my head about betting pre flop and on the flop. Cheeper bets with more power than 4th/river bets. I just need to rebuild the bankroll.

Saturday I hit the NL tourney and see what happens. Nothing like a NL no fold'em tourney, playing tight, waiting for the maniacs to knock each other out, and folding to the money round. All it takes is a couple of good pots on the blinds to stay ahead of the blind increases.

We're pretty casino limited here in Iowa, a few small poker rooms on the river boats and one Native American place, but I'm wondering how common NL games are in bigger casinos. I'm liking live poker better than on line and am afraid that I'm going to have to make a choice between online NL or live low limit. Two very different styles, and I've been alot happier since I switched to NL.

Have you guys seen alot of NL ring games in casinos?

We've got some here in Los Angeles. Commerce Casino has regular no-limit tables.

I've also play no-limit at the Monte Carlo in Vegas. No limit starting to become popular in the card casinos.

well im here again down $60 from losing at 3-6$, not even playing an hand,

i seriously lost like $60 and only playe ONE hand was actually played, which was nice flush draw that i missed

other then that, i lost $60 worth of blinds, such horrible cards, 9,3, 7,2 6,4 10,2 J, 3 ect.

NON STOP i got this until i had no money left

WTF can i do when i get these shit cars, i figured i would just wait it out until i got a decent hand but it never came, just 60$ worth of blinds gone.

holy crap, toasty's avatar scared the crap out of me, i'm going to be seeing that in my dreams.


Well how about you give us some info, what hands you playing, position, raise or limp etc.., are you pretty much sticking to hands like the AK?

Fnord's link has a lot of great help

Is it just me, or does 3-6$ blinds WAY too much for only a $60 bankroll. Every big blind is 10% of your bankroll which is way too much in the long run. You're basically hoping to get a lucky hand and double up, but even $120 isn't enough for a 3-6$ game in my opinion. I'd either bring in alot more money, or go down to a smaller blind table.

I definitely agree with allliving. We play $4/$8 at the B&M and I never leave home without at least $200 bucks and my ATM card. I've easily gone down $60-$100 and made it back on a few good hands.

With 4-5 callers and a few raises pots can easily get to the $100 range.
When you're play no fold 'em with a bunch of retirees (sorry fishstick ) and a few local yocals you need the cash to be able to wait on good cards so that you have a reasonable chance to see one.

Plus, with $60 how do you expect to play that first hand? If you whittle down to $40, then get a hand, you're going to be close to all in and basically can't afford to lose.

Mabye that small bankroll is causing you to play just a little tight?

Another point is that if you really did only play the blinds in 10 rounds, good luck getting any action when you do get a hand. Even in the loose games around here, if you all of sudden did get a hand and raised, you probably wouldn't get paid off.

no you guys dont understand, there WAS NO HANDS i got... i got 7,2 - 9,3 0 J,4 every other hand, i NEVER GOT A HAND, that is what im saying, position nothing, limp, raise, call - it doesnt matter, i had NOTHING to play with, when i folded, i still never paired, never pulled ANYTHING, just $60 worth of folds


and its not $3-6 blinds... blinds are $1-3

the game is 3/6, as in $3 max before the flop and on the flop bet, then 6 on the turn and river.

that's why you don't play with 60 dollars at a 3/6 holdem game

uhhhhh had nothing to do with the money, i got cold cards all night, i guess u just dont know what im talking about cause you play online poker which is bs

athoughts I'm afraid you are missing the point:

You need to bring more money because statistically you are going to have long runs of dead cards or bad cards from time to time. You should be bringing 30-40x BigBet = $180-240 at the absolute minimum. even with only small and big blinds of $1 and $3 respectively, you are setting yourself up for failure if you are only able to make a GRAND TOTAL of 10 big bets if and when you DO get cards.

uhhhhh had nothing to do with the money, i got cold cards all night, i guess u just dont know what im talking about cause you play online poker which is bs

No need to get testy. Most of these guys would clean your clock in or out of a brick and mortar. Show some respect.

Originally Posted by crazyeddie

athoughts
You need to bring more money because statistically you are going to have long runs of dead cards or bad cards from time to time. You should be bringing 30-40x BigBet = $180-240 at the absolute minimum. even with only small and big blinds of $1 and $3 respectively, you are setting yourself up for failure if you are only able to make a GRAND TOTAL of 10 big bets if and when you DO get cards.

eddie is absolutely right (even if he is "crazy" ). this is one of the major reasons i don't play limit holdem.

e.g. playing $25 NL, if i get absolutely nothing (and don't do anything stupid), i lose ~$6 an hour (BB X 12) - if i get ok cards, bluff a little, win a little, i make ~$6 an hour, if i get good cards and make a big hand or two, i make ~$25 an hour (BB X 50). so basically, one or two big hands can make up for quite a few hands of bogus cards.

i have no idea how my numbers compare with others on this board (might be an interesting discussion) but most importantly, i can live with them.

but what do i know, i play online poker.

yeah online poker is rigged , only online do people catch a card on the river to beat you, it never happens at a B&M and don't even get me started with the cash out curse.

Seriously though with $60 what were you hoping for? Catching AA as soon as you sit down and hope that none of the 5 people that call your preflop raise will crack your aces? You put yourself in a bad position.

lol...althoughts, listen to the other guys. We understand you got cold cards, it's part of the game. If you're looking for a reply babying you and feeling sorry for you, you aren't gonna get it. We've all been hit pretty hard holding good cards and we've all had a streak of cold cards before. With your limited bankroll if you did hit a hand, like the above said, you'd be close to all-in with it. And then what? If you were beat, you would come back whining about how you got beat and thought you had the best hand. With $60 you shouldn't be playing 3/6.

I've been playing in low limit B/M games for about a year. Up until about six months ago I never thought to evaluate the games that I was sitting down to play in. I just wanted to play poker for a few hours and have some fun.
For the most part low limit games are of the loose variety, often with 6 or 7 people seeing most flops. These are my favorite types of games with the highest profit potential in the long run. However in the short term w/o addiquate time or a big enough buy in they can be too good to beat.
What do I mean by "too good to beat"? Well with all of this action premium starting hands such as big pocket pairs (AA,KK,etc) become only drawing hands to me. That is if I don't flop a set or a draw to improve I don't put much value on them, and play them somewhat cautiosly if there is even moderatly heavy action on the flop.
Drawing hands such as small suited conectors (67s,89s) and big suited cards are my favorite hands to play. My reasoning behind this is that these hands aren't the favorite before the flop they need help. And in a game like this these hands get sufficent pot odds to be played in any position.
In order for me to make a profit in these types of games I need to have suffient time at the table with enough of a bankroll in order for the cards to "break even" for me. These can be the most frustrating games to play in because of the chance of getting cold cards, getting sucked out on with runner runner straights, and flushes. But on the other hand I've played in 3-6 games that are so tight nobody can beat the rake where good hands win. So there is a choice to be made when selecting your table with some trade offs. Play at the wild table and have a chance to win big and deal with the suck outs or go to the tight game pay the rake, but win with your AA,KK,QQ's.

I thought in simulations AA beats the entire table 40% of the time???

31%, my bad.

Code:

No Fold'em Texas Holdem Hole Cards

800,000,000 Hands Dealt To 10 Holdem Players

             Occurrences           Wins             Splits
           ---------------   -----------------   -------------
  1.  AA   3,620,101 0.45%   1,117,340 31.02%+    17,902 0.49%
  2.  KK   3,622,306 0.45%     936,069 26.00%+    22,109 0.61%
  3.  QQ   3,621,830 0.45%     791,914 22.03%+    27,685 0.76%

  4.  AKs  2,412,116 0.30%     478,037 20.20%+    45,564 1.89%
  5.  JJ   3,620,258 0.45%     684,022 19.07%+    33,537 0.93%
  6.  AQs  2,412,742 0.30%     440,180 18.65%+    52,254 2.17%

  7.  KQs  2,411,113 0.30%     427,045 18.09%+    50,895 2.11%
  8.  AJs  2,412,398 0.30%     411,381 17.48%+    59,012 2.45%
  9.  KJs  2,413,243 0.30%     400,858 17.01%+    57,059 2.36%

 10.  TT   3,619,857 0.45%     602,578 16.83%+    40,428 1.12%
 11.  AK   7,244,755 0.91%   1,182,486 16.65%+   142,298 1.96%
 12.  ATs  2,411,499 0.30%     390,204 16.64%+    65,965 2.74%

 13.  QJs  2,412,510 0.30%     389,643 16.55%+    57,999 2.40%
 14.  KTs  2,411,521 0.30%     379,330 16.15%+    62,952 2.61%
 15.  QTs  2,411,223 0.30%     371,249 15.82%+    63,802 2.65%

 16.  JTs  2,414,108 0.30%     370,195 15.77%+    66,251 2.74%
 17.  99   3,619,521 0.45%     549,107 15.30%+    30,986 0.86%
 18.  AQ   7,244,203 0.91%   1,052,536 14.86%+   163,244 2.25%

4 rounds of capped betting on a 3/6 table is $72.00.

I agree with the 50 big bets to sit down poster.

Allthoughts could be worse, my local casino only has roulette and black jack. I can't even get a game of holdem