A bernie sanders supporter, full of leftist rage, shot at a bunch of congress members during a recreational baseball league practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Did he get all of his ideas from Al Jazeera?
Printable View
A bernie sanders supporter, full of leftist rage, shot at a bunch of congress members during a recreational baseball league practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Did he get all of his ideas from Al Jazeera?
Why presume it was CNN? Maybe it was that one guy on Fox who doesn't like Trump.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Could be. There have been times I've been watching Juan Williams and felt the initial tremors of a murderous rage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
It's also pretty silly to only have one president.
I'll bite......why?Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Well certainly things'd be better if no one had a monopoly over that.
Does cocco really think that government would be more efficient if there were multiple leaders? Is that what I'm to believe?
Must be trolling.
I think Ong might be right. You're trolling. At least I hope that's the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
The only other explanation is that this statement is the result of hopelessly misguided opinions on what constitutes effective leadership combined with simple ignorance of how people naturally form hierarchies.
But I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you once again..
WHY??
You've made two posts on this subject now, and the only support you've provided for your argument thus far is that "it would be better".
WHY would it be better?
The point is that there's about as much proof that a violence monopoly is a bad thing as there is regarding a presidency monopoly, as an example.
I figured it'd be obvious that it was a response to wuf's red herring joke.
Nope, try againQuote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-43414145?SThisFB
"It looks at factors including economic strength (measured in GDP per capita), social support, life expectancy, freedom of choice, generosity, and perceived corruption."
The US is #18.
What do you think makes Finland the happiest? It's not the weather or being so close to Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Because the suicide rate is so high. Depressed people don't hang around long enough to skew the figures.
^You may be on to something there. If that had been a poll I'd assume it was made in the summer. During winter there's just a bunch of miserable depressed gits here, with everything being wet, dark and cold all the time. On the other hand, that makes people appreciate the summer more, when its +25C and sunny for a whole week with 20 hours sunlight a day, that feels special.
It was a super patronising question.
So basically...Quote:
"Imagine a ladder, with steps numbered from 0 at the bottom to 10 at the top.
"The top of the ladder represents the best possible life for you and the bottom of the ladder represents the worst possible life for you. On which step of the ladder would you say you personally feel you stand at this time?"
On a scale of nought to ten, how happy are you?
It's the same for all Nordic contries, and it's every year. It's the Viking gene.
You clearly read this with your confirmation bias turned up to 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Wanna try again? Wanna take a stab at articulating what this study *really* is saying?
Finland can't be much different to Iceland, and I remember reading an artcile about them. Yeah the weather is horrible in winter, but this is the 2000s... no longer are people huddled round fires fighting to stay alive through winter, they have geothermal heating and electricity. Even in winter, Icelanders are much happier than their ancestors, they just have it so much easier.
This is bollocks. They simply take an average from the question I posted. This above is analysts trying to figure out why people say what they say.Quote:
"It looks at factors including economic strength (measured in GDP per capita), social support, life expectancy, freedom of choice, generosity, and perceived corruption."
The underlying assumption of the "ladder" question is that everyone has the same perception of the ladder.
That's obviously nonsense. Like straight-up comical nonsense.
I know we've talked about this before. In America, the ladder is very very tall, with many rungs. In Finland, and wherever else tops that stupid phony list, the ladder is about two feet tall.
I'm not sure where the term "happiest" even came from. This study asks "how successful do you think you are in relation to the rest of your society?". And for some reason, whoever authored the study made the seemingly arbitrary decision to call that "happiness"Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
WTF???
This study is propaganda. Not science.
So climb short ladders. Be happy, win.Quote:
In America, the ladder is very very tall, with many rungs. In Finland, and wherever else tops that stupid phony list, the ladder is about two feet tall.
Basically banana is arguing "Finns are happier because they're less ambitious than we are".
Well good for them.
I don't see that explicitly in the question. That seems to be your interpretation. Did I miss something in the article?Quote:
I'm not sure where the term "happiest" even came from. This study asks "how successful do you think you are in relation to the rest of your society?".
It says to rank yourself between "best possible life" and "worst possible life"Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
If I'm misinterpreting this question, and "best" doesn't mean "most successful", then there must be a shitload of Scandinavians with squadooche for motivation. In that case, "best" and "worst" are functions of how lazy you're able to be without dying.
Are people really that fucking worthless in Finland?
Things might be worst than I thought over there.
Well who the fuck says ten? I'm not getting contsant blow jobs off beautiful women from around the world.Quote:
It says to rank yourself between "best possible life" and "worst possible life"
My interpretation of the question is "how happy are you?"
Perhaps that's because I measure success in happiness, not the other way around.
Any wording of the question is going to be open to criticism - that's just the nature of trying to quantify something abstract like happiness.
That said, it's probably no coincidence that people who respond more positively to questions aimed to assess happiness live in countries with certain characteristics, like universal health care and guaranteed paid leave and so on.
If people in Iran or Afganistan were topping the list of happy countries, I'd be more skeptical of the results than I am now.
You don't cease to amaze me. I posted a link, a quote from that link and one item pertaining to the study referred to in the link.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Now, which part of that shows confirmation bias? What do you want me to try again?
I'm truly sorry that reality is biased against your opinions. It's probably for the best that you continue living in Bananastan and filtering out all information challenging your world view.
"worst possible life"
That really does trigger the imagination. Best? Easy, blow jobs. Worst? It's probably going to involve fire.
When you grow older, young padawan, you may realize that financial success has little correlation with perceived happiness.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
I believe the word you're thinking of is "cease", not "sieze". You'd know that if you lived in a country where quality of academics mattered as much or more than access.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
I've already explained how the ladder question is faulty. So the rankings are bullshit. Would you rather be a 7 in Finland, or a 5 in America?
What if that perception is heavily colored by leftist propaganda?? Is that better?Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
You really don't see how a shorter ladder is worse? What happens to all the people who enjoy high ladders? They're GONE!
How many top 50 universities are in finland? HOw many top 50 hospitals (what is your universal healthcare doing for you?)? How many top 50 corporations?
How do you not see that your country's insistence on equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity, has chased off all of your producers??!! And what's left? A country full of suicide contemplaters buried in household debt relying on the nanny state to quell their anxiety.
You call that happiness??????????
I edited it before your post, just not before you started writing it. Terribly sorry if my poor english offends you. I'm assuming you only speak english since other languages are irrelevant?Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
You know where I live, so you know the answer to your question. I've probably also spent more time in the US than you have outside your state.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Protip: The ladders aren't income brackets. Also, try to calm down, it's ok. Just grab a beer and you'll forget this information ever entered your brain. You'll be happy and chanting U-S-A sooner than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
For producers they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
That's probably not a common opinion where you live because all the producers left.
The first two are subjective questions. Who compiles these lists of universities and hopsitals? Better to ask... what's the life expectancy in Finland? What's the average income relative to living cost? (I assume the point of good education is to create high earners).Quote:
How many top 50 universities are in finland? HOw many top 50 hospitals (what is your universal healthcare doing for you?)? How many top 50 corporations?
The last question... who cares?
Well the study was about people, not producers.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2015/09/0...e-businessman/
The irony of an American, and specifically banana, displaying this much ignorance of the fact that Finland is on another level at the top of academic achievement in its students is so delicious I think I just came in my pants.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Conferences have actually been organised by educators trying to answer the question of why Finland's education system is so successful, and how can we apply it in our country.
It can't be that successfulQuote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
https://thebestschools.org/features/...n-world-today/
How many Finnish schools are on this list?
Having a top university is easy - hire the best people and pay them lots of money, then charge students lots of money to go there. Hence that is why educators don't have conferences about 'how do we be more like Harvard?'Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Having the best public schools is a bit more complicated.
If your point (assuming you had one) was that Finnish education sucks because he misspelled a word in his second language, my point was that his education was probably better than yours because he didn't say something as stupid as you just had.
This encapsulates everything that's wrong with liberalism and the desire for equality of outcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
This story presumes that the Fisherman is already happy by working just a little, and fucking off the rest of his time.
I wouldn't call that happiness. I'd call that hell.
Too much chaos in your life, and you're bound to be resentful, unhappy, and angry.
Too much order in your life and you're numb, stuck, stationary, and ignorant to the rest of what life has to offer.
Living...really *living*...means walking that line between order and chaos. That's where we get phrases like "straight and narrow path".
That's what the businessman is doing. He's living. The fisherman is all but dead. He's a zombie.
You're conflating the term "best" with "accessible" and "equal".Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Lol, no my definition of 'best' was in terms of achievement of its students. Finland stomps every country's ass in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
lolzQuote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
This is your opinion on what it means to be "happy" or "living".Quote:
That's what the businessman is doing. He's living. The fisherman is all but dead. He's a zombie.
You know what Finnish farmers do when they're not farming? They race lawnmowers up hills. That's living, it beats golf.
You certainly have a right to have your opinion, please just realize many people don't subscribe to it. Your argument in essence is that happiness can only be achieved through working and being successful. How I see it, is that those are absolutely not the end game, they're means to an end. I work in order to get money to do things I actually love doing, and the less I have to work to achieve that the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
I have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about here. What are you talking about here?Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
The businessman is spending all of his time with the end game of being able to do what the fisherman is already doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
10 points for effort Banana! Next week we'll be discussing The Three Little Pigs, let's see if you can figure out the moral to the story in that.
I am not expressing an opinion. What I'm expressing is the determination of tens of thousands of years of human history. What I'm expressing has been expressed in every archetypal story in every culture in all of recorded history.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Completely incorrect. The idea that happiness is something that can be "achieved" is a false construct.Quote:
Your argument in essence is that happiness can only be achieved through working and being successful.
This is a recipe for unhappiness.Quote:
How I see it, is that those are absolutely not the end game, they're means to an end. I work in order to get money to do things I actually love doing, and the less I have to work to achieve that the better.
Of course you don't. You've been duped by postmodern society into believing that you could be happy if you were just insulated and protected from all of the oppressive forces in the world. Get woke.Quote:
I have absolutely zero idea what you're talking about here.
Why are you talking about an "endgame"?Quote:
The businessman is spending all of his time with the end game of being able to do what the fisherman is already doing.
Why is life about an "endgame"?
Three little pigs would be much better if the first time the wolf turns up to blow the house down, one of the pigs grabs his shotgun.
Then they can build their house out of whatever they want.
There is a reason that almost every story of accomplishment, achievement, or conquering evil all have the same ingredients.
There is a young man. He has to be young because any learning has to start from a place of ignorance
Then that young man ventures off into the unknown. He is immersed in chaos.
Chaos nearly destroys him
Then he undergoes some kind of transformation that makes him stronger.
Then he confronts chaos, and restores order.
In western culture, this axiomatic individual is a young guy who lived a life of deprivation and then got nailed to some wood (chaos). After that he ascended to eternal life and infinite wisdom (order).
The fisherman in that 1-minute story isn't doing any of that. He's stuck in his comfortable routine. He's ignorant and blind to the rest of the world outside of his carefully manicured life. That might sound good to people like us who spend most of our time toiling at a job. But it's not good. Long-term, that fisherman is on the road to depression, and despair. He is bound to be confronted by the meaninglessness and ineffectiveness of his life. And when that happens he won't know what to do.
I'll bet even money that the fisherman kills himself within a decade.
No you're not, you're talking out of your ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Happiness is the perception of having meaning to your life, of not having overwhelming adversities, having meaningful social connections, sense of belonging, being able to do things you enjoy. None of these can be measured in money or success. Having some money makes it easier, but there are diminishing returns very soon as they increase. These things have actually been studied.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
You see, work and success are not the only things to strive for. Some can find happiness in conquering Mt Everest, some from working in their garden, some from spending time with their grand kids. I wish I had worked more, said no one on their death bed ever.
Right, you know better than I do how I actually feel. Sorry I forgot.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
I'm still no closer to understanding any of your ramblings.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Most humans have a strong innate need for meaning, which often translates to having meaning, purpose in life. Most people, according to studies, want that. For me, one way to put it is that looking back, I want to be able to feel like my existence had been a net positive for life around me. So lately, on this forum, I've actively been working against that. Gotta start making up for it somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
No, I'm really not.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
Maintaining order by confronting chaos. That's not the same thing as maintaining order by insulating yourself from chaos.Quote:
Happiness is .....
No one said that. Happiness is growth. Happiness is the emergence from chaos into order. This is literally the message of every archetypal story passed down through tens of thousands of generationsQuote:
You see, work and success are not the only things to strive for.
That's an example of confronting chaos and achieving order.Quote:
Some can find happiness in conquering Mt Everest,
Same thing. An unattended garden breeds chaos in the form of pests, weeds, dead plants. Confronting that chaos by gardening brings order.Quote:
some from working in their garden,
Same thing again. Kids are stupid, impulsive, chaotic. Engaging with them in a way that is orderly, for example playing a game, helps you both grow and gives both of your lives meaning.Quote:
some from spending time with their grand kids
I wish my life had more meaning...said everyone on their death bed ever.Quote:
I wish I had worked more, said no one on their death bed ever.
If you immerse yourself in order and insulate yourself from chaos, you will be fall into depression and despair. It's a fact. I don't need to read your mind. You just told me how you approach life, and it is an objective truth that you are on a road to meaninglessness.Quote:
Right, you know better than I do how I actually feel. Sorry I forgot.
THat's probably a good thing. You'd hate yourself if you did.Quote:
I'm still no closer to understanding any of your ramblings.
Fair enough. "net positive" is another way of saying "improvement". In order to improve things, you must bring order to them. in order to bring order you must confront chaos. To successfully confront chaos, you must be equipped for it. A large, unwieldy, slow moving, meddlesome government does not equip you for that endeavor. It immerses you in order in a way that prevents you from developing the skills and attitudes necessary to drive a positive change in the world around you. Your own words in post 350 demonstrate this definitively.Quote:
Most humans have a strong innate need for meaning, which often translates to having meaning, purpose in life. Most people, according to studies, want that. For me, one way to put it is that looking back, I want to be able to feel like my existence had been a net positive for life around me.
Young man goes to war, almost gets killed, goes from being a shit artist to a powerful demagogue, confronts the chaos of post-war Germany, restores order.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Only part missing is where it all kinda goes sour.
This is the most bizarre definition of happiness I've ever heard.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Really?? It's been around forever...Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_yang.svg.png
Young man gets motor neurone disease, given two years to live.
Lives for another half a decade talking bollocks that everyone thinks is super clever.
I say talking... it just about qualifies.
Then went sour too. Apparently he slapped his wife about or something. Fuck knows how.
*come here bitch*
*ram your face into my fist, bitch*
*now make me a sandwich, bitch*
You mean the part where he tries to create chaos instead of order....that's what evil does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Then Hitler should have been the happiest guy ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
I think all contemporary accounts suggest otherwise though.
Germany was much better ordered after Hitler than before, at least until WWII started.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
try reading a history book once in a while if you're going to make arguments from history.
Right. The trains ran on time, credit Hitler for order. Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
But then...he decided to spread chaos, and it was his undoing. That's what chaos does to people. People who embrace chaos are dangerous and evil. And almost always destroy themselves, but usually take a lot of innocent people with them. It's true for Hitler, it's true for school shooters.
Yeah some bullshit philosophy index of happiness doesn't work irl though, at least not universally. According to buddhists, happiness comes from not wanting things, like the fisherman. But you say that would make you unhappy. So it seems to depend on the person.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
When on one hand you say that and on the other you agree with me on every single definition and example of happiness, it makes it pretty frustrating to have a discussion. Do you have Tourette's?Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
[deleted stupid shit]
trying to be better.
You are missing the point by miles man. The fisherman's problem isn't a lack of wanting things....it's a lack of wanting meaningQuote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Nothing I've said in this discussion suggests happiness is connected to material possessions. If that's what you think you're reading in my posts, read harder
I've described happiness as meaning. Meaning comes at the intersection of order and chaos.Quote:
Originally Posted by CoccoBill
That's the same way it's been described throughout history. In every religion. In every fable. In every axiomatic archetypal story that's ever been passed through generations.
If you're not getting it, maybe you live in a country with bad schools.
The problem is your inability to appreciate his idea of meaning, or more generally the idea that anyone can differ from you without meaning there's something wrong with them in the head.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Wrong. He's over-appreciating his own idea of meaning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
It's really not a subjective opinion to say that the fisherman's life of lazy indulgence is not a good thing.
Ask any clinical psychologist you can find: "What would you say if a patient came into your office and told you that he spends every day doing the minimum amount of labor, napping, and then getting drunk every night?"
Their answer will probably contain the word "depression".
There's so many things wrong here, so I'll just point out the obvious ones:Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
1. Sure, describing happiness as having meaning is fine. I don't disagree with that, however, meaning is subjective. You don't have any authority to decide what some random fisherman from a fictional story does or should deem meaningful.
2. I've never noticed meaning been described as the intersection of chaos and order besides a couple vague analogues. But sure, let's say it has. Every religion, fable and axiomatic archetypal story has been wrong about a lot of things. I do applaud you for switching to some less ubiquitous fallacies, you don't see argumentum ad antiquitatem every day.
3. Maybe the schools are bad, it must mean Finns are just smarter than Americans.
Pretty sure that's not how depression is diagnosed. I'm pretty sure the person saying they're happy pretty much rules out that diagnosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Apart from that you just confirmed my point 100 %.
"I wouldn't be happy living that way, so neither can anyone else. Must be something wrong with that guy"
Lol, i spent an entire summer doing this when i was 18. Some of the happiest days of my life. Never felt the need to go for therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BananaStand
Again, happiness is subjective. Just cause you hate having fun and being lazy doesn't mean everyone else does (or should) too.
Yeah, irl a depression diagnosis probably more closely resembles a drug-deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
When did the fisherman say he was happy?Quote:
I'm pretty sure the person saying they're happy pretty much rules out that diagnosis.
I suppose I can see how you can interpret what I said as that. Though you have to put some effort to get there. Not sure why that's you're aim.Quote:
"I wouldn't be happy living that way, so neither can anyone else. Must be something wrong with that guy"
Anyway, if I misled you by conflating happiness with meaning, then I stand corrected.
Let's get away from the term "happiness" as that a rabbit hole I don't wanna go down. It could be merely "joy" at getting a blowjob, or it could be satisfaction from fulfilling some existential purpose. And there is a whole spectrum in between.
I'll rephrase my assertion. Meaning occurs at the intersection of order and chaos.
The fisherman, insulated by order and far removed from the point of intersection, is living a life with no meaning.
Or...at least that's how he's portrayed in the story. Perhaps the songs he sings while drunk with his buddies are meaningful and well loved by the community that comes to hear him sing. Perhaps they find his lyrics inspirational and are compelled to live better lives.
In that case, the community is in chaos and then brought to a slightly higher level of order through song. The fisherman finds meaning by existing at that intersection. So I guess you could say that 'meaning' is the change you impose on the world.
It could be said then, that the fisherman would have greater meaning if he partnered with teh businessman to rent a recording studio, produce and album, and distribute to more people. The order in his songs spreads more broadly through the chaos of the world. More lives are affected. Greater change. Greater meaning.
Getting back to fishing now...the businessman is offering the fisherman meaning. By growing his business he is employing other people, and feeding many families. That has meaning. Or maybe he has a business that he can pass down to his children. That also has meaning as it affects the state of the world. The world is changed because the fisherman lived.
None of that is possible if the fisherman just shrugs and says "Fuck it, I'm doing alright and having fun"
And that's bad.
Were those days meaningful? Is the world changed by you having lived those days?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Again, let's drop the term "happiness", and use the term "meaning". Goalpost moved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
yea tl;dr
The convo was about happiness; do you remember that?
If you want to have a convo about 'meaning' maybe don't try to start it in the middle of a convo about happiness.
The fisherman also doesn't gaf about you or your taoist concepts of meaning or yin and yang or chaos and order. Same with a lot of people in Finland I guess.
From you, this is the closest thing to a concession that I could ever hope for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop