Trump Believes He is Starring in the Second Season of an Apprentice Spinoff

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Another thing that isn't men's fault.....is the massive volume of women who encourage this kind of positive male attention and use it to their advantage.

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I don't think fault explains what's going on. If women don't doll up, men tend to not care about them as much. So, women are in a damned if do damned if don't type of situation.

But that's NORMAL. Men are in the same kind of situation, just with different details. A solution to this issue might be in acting like adults and realizing that there are deep dynamics at play and that denying the natural mode of things is a bad idea.

I like something Jordan Peterson recently said. When asked how long it takes for society to figure out the rules of engagement between men and women working together in the workforce, he responded "more than 40 years". Insightful.

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Originally Posted by wufwugy

But that's NORMAL. Men are in the same kind of situation, just with different details. A solution to this issue might be in acting like adults and realizing that there are deep dynamics at play and that denying the natural mode of things is a bad idea.

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Amen

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I like something Jordan Peterson recently said. When asked how long it takes for society to figure out the rules of engagement between men and women working together in the workforce, he responded "more than 40 years". Insightful.

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JP is gonna be on Tucker tonight. Tuck is doing a weekly series during the month of March on the state of men in America. Should be a good watch.

JP:

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"Male behavior is often diagnosed as Attention Deficit Disorder"

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When is he running for President?

JP [Paraphrased]: if your kid is in a class that talks about inclusivity, diversity, white privilege, systemic racism, etc etc...pull your kid out of the class.

Tucker: I agree, but you might run out of schools

JP: THAT WOULD BE JUST FINE!!


Dude has my vote.

If you're a man who hasn't figured out the difference between a woman wanting to look attractive in general and a woman who wants to look attractive because she wants to have sex with YOU specifically, then sorry but you are not very bright.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

If you're a man who hasn't figured out the difference between a woman wanting to look attractive in general and a woman who wants to look attractive because she wants to have sex with YOU specifically, then sorry but you are not very bright.

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That's either a wild misinterpretation, or a gross mischaracterization of what I said. possibly both

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

That's either a wild misinterpretation, or a gross mischaracterization of what I said. possibly both

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I did not quote you in my post sir.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I did not quote you in my post sir.

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Why not just say you were wrong rather than embarrass yourself with this pathetically narrow defense

But getting back to what you said....if you think there is a difference between a woman wanting to look attractive in general, and a woman who wants to look sexually appetizing to men, then you are not very bright.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Why not just say you were wrong rather than embarrass yourself with this pathetically narrow defense

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There's nothing to defend because I wasn't quoting you.

If you choose to behave as if everyone on this forum is responding solely to your largely inane comments, that's your problem.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

if you think there is a difference between a woman wanting to look attractive in general, and a woman who wants to look sexually appetizing to men, then you are not very bright.

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Ya good thanks for the tip.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

There's nothing to defend because I wasn't quoting you.

If you choose to behave as if everyone on this forum is responding solely to your largely inane comments, that's your problem

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sad

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Men don't? Well.....maybe physicists don't.

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Ha. Good one.

Men don't receive the same kind of attention from random, unfamiliar women as women get from men.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Does nearly 4 out of 5 women being victimized....to the point the man should face consequences....sound plausible to you?

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You've added the phrase about consequences, which is completely off topic.
The topic isn't whether anyone should be punished, the topic is whether women posting metoo are inherently deceiving in their claims.
My point is these claims of unwanted conduct are plausible, not that anyone should be punished.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Those are emotions?

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Yes, those are emotions.
Well, melodrama should have been melodramatic.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Are you really suggesting that every one of your responses to my posts over...oh let's say the last 48 hours...was not an attack?

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I'm suggesting that I haven't ever attacked you, in the past million hours.
Disagreeing with your boneheaded ideas is not an attack.
Treating you with the open rudeness you treat us isn't an attack.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

That's either a wild misinterpretation, or a gross mischaracterization of what I said. possibly both

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Guilty conscience, much?

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Guilty conscience, much?

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wut??

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Men don't receive the same kind of attention from random, unfamiliar women as women get from men.

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Myth

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You've added the phrase about consequences, which is completely off topic.
The topic isn't whether anyone should be punished, the topic is whether women posting metoo are inherently deceiving in their claims.
My point is these claims of unwanted conduct are plausible, not that anyone should be punished

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Jeezus man you are so bent on discrediting me that you've spun yourself into a frenzy of insanity.

The topic, is in reference to the NYT survey that I posted claiming that 77% of women have experienced harassment. Such a claim implies a desire for the harasser to endure consequences. Otherwise you're saying that there is such a thing as "acceptable harassment".

Ask some women that you work with how they feel about that.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

If she's not after notoriety now, what could her motive possibly be?

She already got paid. She already got laid. Why else to people bother to get up in the morning?

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Who was saying that Stormy isn't just trying to promote herself??

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...ith-trump.html

The name of her tour is "Make America Horny Again"

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Men don't receive the same kind of attention from random, unfamiliar women as women get from men.

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Do you know why this is? You're a man of science, there's a sciency reason for it.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Myth.

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Dude cmon. Of course women give men attention, but you can't seriously think that it's the same kind of attention, and to the same degree.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Do you know why this is? You're a man of science, there's a sciency reason for it.

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Women can only have one kid at a time, and it's a big ordeal for them to get that kid. A man can have lots of kids and it's a lot of fun for him to get them.

So to put it glibly, women nest, men hunt. Men wander around in the hope some woman will have sex with them. Women wander around in the hope some man will hang around after sex and help look after the kid. Evolutionarily speaking and broadly speaking that is.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Dude cmon. Of course women give men attention, but you can't seriously think that it's the same kind of attention, and to the same degree.

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It's much easier to lower your expectations than to hold him to sensible ones.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Dude cmon. Of course women give men attention, but you can't seriously think that it's the same kind of attention, and to the same degree.

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Here we go with "kinds of attention" and "degrees". It's tiresome, and frankly, intellectually lazy. You're taking something you don't understand, slicing it down to one tiny fraction that you do understand, and then using that as your argument.

The simple fact is that women and men contribute equally to the "background hum of sexual attention". Just because men and women's specific contributions differ at times doesn't mean that they aren't equally objectifying or equally toxic.

You seem to have been indoctrinated by the "men are oppressors" and "women are victims of the social patriarchy" feminist bullshit that pervades our society and media.

Resist.

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You seem to have been indoctrinated by the "men are oppressors" and "women are victims of the social patriarchy" feminist bullshit that pervades our society and media.

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Wrong. I just understand that men have higher levels of testosterone.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I just understand that men have higher levels of testosterone.

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So?

So... that's why men are bigger dicks than women when it comes to stuff like sexual harassment. It's like why people who drink ten pints are more drunk than people who drink five.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

So... that's why men are bigger dicks than women when it comes to stuff like sexual harassment.

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How in the wide wide world of sports did you get that idea???

You are up to your neck in feminist indoctrination, so I'm not hopeful that I can change your mind. But please try to understand that:

1) The behaviors your describing as "harassment" aren't harassment
2) Women do plenty to encourage these bahaviors
3) Plenty of women unapologetically leverage sexuality to manipulate men and/or to advance their own interests (ie. they act like big dicks)

I really could go on and on. Look at the issue of rape on college campuses. There are TONS of stories that just don't smell right. Girls regret relations they've had and make outrageous claims of victimization. Men in these cases are deprived of legal representation, the right to face their accusers, or any kind of viable appeals process.

The point is, that women have plenty of power. More than men in the vast majority of cases. Men are getting destroyed in western societies. Absolutely destroyed. And women/feminism have a lot to do with it.

Villainizing men for behaviors that are inherently in their nature is just wrong. That's not a matter of interpretation. That's not a matter of opinion. It's just WRONG. A handful of bad actors are used as representative examples of an entire gender. There are billions of men, all pumping testosterone through their bodies that don't harass or abuse women.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

If you're a man who hasn't figured out the difference between a woman wanting to look attractive in general and a woman who wants to look attractive because she wants to have sex with YOU specifically, then sorry but you are not very bright.

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Lots of people are not that bright.

Some people are quite bright and still misinterpret the cues.

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1) The behaviors your describing as "harassment" aren't harassment
2) Women do plenty to encourage these bahaviors
3) Plenty of women unapologetically leverage sexuality to manipulate men and/or to advance their own interests (ie. they act like big dicks)

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1) Granted, but note the use of the word "like"... I'm referring to any behaviour which could be considered inapprorpriate, such as unwelcome advances, wolf whistling etc.
2) Yes they do.
3) Yes they do.

But if you're trying to convince me they are on a par with men, you're failing. Women are more manipulative than men, I'll concede that much. But it's not particularly "unwelcome" from the man's pov, is it?

On average, men are more pushy, disgusting, assertive... basically more driven by sexual urges than women are. That's testosterone, and that's what drives people's behaviour when it comes to these matters.

To further demonstrate...

Lets ask an imaginary poll to married couples...
Q - who has the stronger sex drive? Him or her?

It's gonna be well over 50% saying "him".

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You are up to your neck in feminist indoctrination, so I'm not hopeful that I can change your mind. But please try to understand that:

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This isn't true, by the way. It's simply your default assumption to anyone who disagrees with you on this matter.

I don't blame men for being driven by their libido. I don't think men need to be shamed, nor do they need to change their behaviour (assuming it's legal at least). So no, I'm not neck deep in feminism.

Nothing you've said suggests why women should be wary of men more than men are wary of women.

youre just feeding the feminist myth

"wary" is pretty subjective.

We were talking about types of attention. What kind of attention do men need to be wary about? A hormone-filled baby maker looking for a mug? A gold-digger who'll suck your cock every day if you give her a monthly allowance? What about women? What are they wary about?

It's a completely different kind of "wary".

I'd say it's slightly less likely that a man needs to be wary of groping, sexual assault or not getting a job for refusing to give head.

Banana, who hurt you?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

"wary" is pretty subjective.....It's a completely different kind of "wary".

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Is this what we do now? Every response is "well....let me pick a word, and either choose the narrowest definition possible to support my own argument. Or suggest that it's definition is so broad that it can't support my opponent's argument".

Be smarter

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

I'd say it's slightly less likely that a man needs to be wary of groping, sexual assault or not getting a job for refusing to give head.

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So what if that's true? Are those the ONLY things a person could possibly be wary of? There are all kinds of ways a woman can hurt a man, not the least of which is the power to accuse. Plenty of men are totally destroyed by false allegations of misconduct. Another example is divorces. Men overwhelmingly get the short end of the deal in those things.

The point is, humans have tons of reason to be wary of other humans.

I'm content to leave it at that. But if any of you wanna go down a gender vs gender rabbit hole you should know, right now, that the ultimate conclusion of that debate is that men are by far the more vulnerable sex. And it's not even close.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/574728225...#sp=show-clips

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Is this what we do now? Every response is "well....let me pick a word, and either choose the narrowest definition possible to support my own argument. Or suggest that it's definition is so broad that it can't support my opponent's argument".

Be smarter

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Smart like you? I like how you didn't answer the questions in my post and instead focussed on my complaint that "wary" is far too subjective.

Here's those questions again...

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What kind of attention do men need to be wary about?

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What about women?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Here's those questions again...

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I believe I answered those questions and more in Post #133

I think people really need to reflect on the glaring irony of feminism.

Any psychologist will tell you that nearly all rapists and sexual abusers are weak, cowardly, beta-types.

So feminism proclaims to denounce masculinity as toxic, while seeming to ignore that the greatest threats to women come from the least masculine men.

All your arguments have nothing to say about the metoo movement's claims being unsound, only that you are treated the same and you weren't invited to their party.
I.e. that you're equally victimized as a man and don't want to join a woman's party.
There's the irony.

Boohoo, little snowflake.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

I believe I answered those questions and more in Post #133

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Well it wasn't addressed t me so I didn't bother to read it.

False accusation, yes that's a good one. Divorces? Weak. Not remotely comparable. Yes men get screwed over more than women here, but this is the system, not the woman. She's taking advanatge of legal avenues to screw the man over. It's a murky world but I don't believe it has a place in this discussion. I already covered that vaguely with "gold diggers".

So... false accusations... this is where women really have power over men that is on a par to what I'm talking about. Do you suppose this is happening as much as genuine accusations?

If divorce is a part of this discussion, so is domestic violence.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

All your arguments have nothing to say about the metoo movement's claims being unsound,

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See post #61

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only that you are treated the same and you weren't invited to their party.
I.e. that you're equally victimized as a man and don't want to join a woman's party.
There's the irony.

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Your analogy is so glib and off-topic that it's only worth responding for the purpose of pointing out that "not invited" and "don't want to join" are not the same thing.

It should be abundantly clear to you that men are the more vulnerable sex, and are victims in many many ways. If you insist on describing that as "treated the same", I would say that you're hopelessly lost and up to your eyeballs in feminist indoctrination. It's sort of pointless to argue about that since Im willing to lie, and concede that we can call it "the same". Once we get to the point where the problems are "equal", then the solutions become the responsibility of the individual and not a group claiming to be the victim of inequality.

That actually sounds like a very non-snowflake-y position. It would be extremely hypocritical of me to constantly denounce identity politics and claims of victim-hood, but then turn around and play the same game when it suits my gender.

Rejecting the feminist agenda is really only part of the solution for men. The rest of the solution involves men starting to act like men, and to stop apologizing for it.

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Boohoo, little snowflake.

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I really hope you don't have a son.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Do you suppose this is happening as much as genuine accusations?

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No. I actually think the false accusations are more prevalent than legitimate ones. But as I explained to MMM, I'm willing to just lie here and concede that they're equal, since that equilibrium is where identity politics and group victimization end.

But even if it's not, the outcomes are not even close to comparable. Here's an example

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...agues-say.html

Four people felt 'icky' for about three seconds. Huggybear has a blemish on his record forever. Other men aren't so lucky, and their careers/reputations are destroyed entirely.

Its like if we played heads up poker for a ten hands with 100BB stacks.. The first 9 times, I raised, you folded, and lost your blinds. Then on the tenth hand we get it all in and you win.

In the end you'll have about 9x as many chips as I do, so it would be really shitty of you to go around complaining about how you were bullied, harassed, or abused during the first nine hands.

Some quotes from the article:

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State Sen. Bob Hertzberg, D-Van Nuys, was the subject of a state Senate report released Thursday that details rampant sexual harassment in the Capitol in Sacramento

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^ That's gonna come up every time someone google's the guy

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[Investigators]noted they could not find evidence that the unwanted hugs continued after she asked to stop.

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So a woman stood up for herself and protected her personal space. She clearly communicated her terms, and they were respected. That's really all anyone has to do. I have a major problem with labeling someone a 'victim' when they fail to do this.

Right. Well that there is everything that's wrong with the metoo movement. It's encouraging complaints of this nature.

I don't think you're right at all, I don't believe false accuastions outnumber genuine ones at all. However, I can see that changing under the current climate.

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Rejecting the feminist agenda is really only part of the solution for men. The rest of the solution involves men starting to act like men, and to stop apologizing for it.

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And I agree with you here.

But I still feel that men are bigger assholes, on average. Testosterone. It makes me do weird things, such as watch porn. Ok, not that weird, but are women watching porn because they have what is essentially a drug coursing through their veins? Not nearly to the same degree.

When women are assholes, it's because they're being manipulative cunts, it's got nothing to do with hormones. Well, except the baby makers. That's all hormones.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

But I still feel that men are bigger assholes, on average. Testosterone.

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Men are more assertive, and women are more agreeable. That's just biology. How are you construing that into a social problem if you aren't firmly indoctrinated into the feminist agenda??

As I said, there are literally billions of men walking the earth right now, with testosterone pumping through their bodies that aren't doing anything to hurt women. By blaming testosterone for the offenses of a handful of bad actors, you've applied sinister motivations to an entire group of people (men). That's the definition of sexism!!

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't think you're right at all, I don't believe false accuastions outnumber genuine ones at all. However, I can see that changing under the current climate.

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It's a moot argument. Even if you're right, 10 men with pellet guns is no match for 1 woman with a bazooka.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Men are more assertive, and women are more agreeable. That's just biology. How are you construing that into a social problem if you aren't firmly indoctrinated into the feminist agenda??

As I said, there are literally billions of men walking the earth right now, with testosterone pumping through their bodies that aren't doing anything to hurt women. By blaming testosterone for the offenses of a handful of bad actors, you've applied sinister motivations to an entire group of people (men). That's the definition of sexism!!

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I don't think I said it was a social problem. I think I was outraged about it being a social problem when it's just biology.

Billions of men do indeed have testosterone pumping through their veins. And billions of men have behaved in ways that *could* be considered a little murky. I know I have. Have you? Has mojo? I'm not talking about illegal or clearly immoral shit, but maybe getting drunk and making a fool of yourself trying it on with someone who is clearly not interested, failing to pick up on the obvious body language. Or maybe catching a glimpse of a female friend getting undressed, and taking a longer look than one should've. Do I suppose any of my female friends have watched me get undressed? Here's the thing... I'd probably like it if they did, even if I wasn't interested in her. There's another difference... when it comes to sexual advances, men don't care so much about unwanted attention as women do.

I'm not "blaming" tesosterone. Again, you seem to think I'm assigning blame. If I'm a dick because I took a shit load of cocaine, do you blame the coke? No you blame me. Well, what if that shit is in me naturally? You blame biology, which isn't really blame, it's acknowledgement of the root cause of odd male behaviour.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

It's a moot argument. Even if you're right, 10 men with pellet guns is no match for 1 woman with a bazooka.

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Huggy bear is a pellet gun. Harvey Fuckstein is a bazooka. Men and women alike are armed with all sorts of weapons.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

See post #61

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Unless I misread that post, you're not saying those women's claims are wrong (unsound), only that the consequences to the men in those situations was unfair. I.e. that there was nothing wrong with what the men did, and nothing wrong with the woman sharing the story of what happened, but that society's reaction to that is messed up.

So my point remains that you aren't mad about women making up lies. You're mad that society views this as acceptable. You're mad that you feel vilified by society for "being a man."

The irony is that is exactly what the metoo movement is about, and you're railing that it's somehow in opposition to your freedom to be a man. You're letting the conversation be about women against men, and not about decent people against harassers. That's on you. If it's really about decent people against harassers, then choose your words to characterize your position as such. Leaving it as women vs. men just paints you to be an idiot who sounds like he's trying to defend the rights of harassers to harass.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Your analogy is so glib and off-topic that it's only worth responding for the purpose of pointing out that "not invited" and "don't want to join" are not the same thing.

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See above. The group seems to represent your exact viewpoint, but you vilify the group while continuing to hold your view.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

It should be abundantly clear to you that men are the more vulnerable sex, and are victims in many many ways.

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Waaaah, waaaah. I am a victim because of my penis! Waaah waaaah!
:cry:

... and you have the hubris to talk about "real men."
adorable

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

That actually sounds like a very non-snowflake-y position. It would be extremely hypocritical of me to constantly denounce identity politics and claims of victim-hood, but then turn around and play the same game when it suits my gender.

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You literally just argued that you are a victim because you are a man. What could possibly be more snowflakey?

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

Rejecting the feminist agenda is really only part of the solution for men. The rest of the solution involves men starting to act like men, and to stop apologizing for it.

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IDK what subjective nonsense you have to think to assert that anything a man does is somehow "not acting like a man."
People who do things which offend you exist, and that doesn't make them any less human than you.

You're buying into the social BS that you rail against by attacking men for being men. You are just another wind-bag on the wrong side of the line if you think YOU can decide what is manly for other men.

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Originally Posted by BananaStand

I really hope you don't have a son.

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It's actaully sweet of you to care about the well-being of my family, even if you meant it as an insult to my manhood, while simultaneously crying about the victimization of men.

Funny, but that's something spoony used to do, too. Go on and on and on about how men are shat upon by our society, then emasculate anyone who disagrees with him.
The exposure of hypocrisy couldn't be more plain.

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The irony is that is exactly what the metoo movement is about

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You're wrong. It's about getting men to change their behaviour.

Who wants to start the Official crying about losing white male privilege thread?

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Who wants to start the Official crying about losing white male privilege thread?

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spoon probably already covered it in detail.

Although that's very typical left wing crap to start banging on about "privilege" like we should feel guilty for being born white males.

Also banana playing the victim card by moaning about how men are victims... that's also left wing babbling. Sort of. It should be, except the left aren't interested in men being victims because they're so busy villifying them.

But still, leave the victim card for the left. I'm not a victim, nor am I privileged.

Nah, I neither identify as left-wing nor think anyone should feel guilty for anything apart from their actions.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Nah, I neither identify as left-wing nor think anyone should feel guilty for anything apart from their actions.

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Well don't bring up white male privilege then.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

You're wrong. It's about getting men to change their behaviour.

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Only if men leave themselves out of the movement.

Nanners isn't wrong that there's plenty of discrimination and vilification going both ways, but he's wrong that one group's bad behavior justifies bad behavior in another group.

I'm curious as to why he hasn't started his own metoo movement, inviting men to share the stories of how they were sexually harassed.
Is it laziness? Or is it because he knows that there would be little-to-no traction on that movement?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Although that's very typical left wing crap to start banging on about "privilege" like we should feel guilty for being born white males.

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Who exactly is asking you to feel guilty for being a white male? I never see this message anywhere except from white males claiming they're getting told it.

I've had my arse pinched by a random stranger before.

I liked it.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Well don't bring up white male privilege then.

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Whites aren't privileged compared to coloured people, or men haven't been privileged compared to women, or both?

poop-

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Who wants to start the Official crying about losing white male privilege thread?

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IDK what cocco's intent was, but stating a clear fact like, "There has been a centuries long history of racism and sexism codified into law which has benefited whites and males above others, and while we seem to be moving past them, there are still echoes of these policies." is not a moral statement of whether or not that's right or anyone should feel guilty about it.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

they're so busy villifying them (men).

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That's precisely victim-talk though. So when YOU claim you're being discriminated against based on your gender and/or race, how it is any different from someone else with different gender and/or race making the same complaint? Why is it they're doing something reprehensible by playing the victim card and you're not?

Seems to be a double standard here.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Whites aren't privileged compared to coloured people, or men haven't been privileged compared to women, or both?

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Just leave this one well alone. One minute you're saying "nor think anyone should feel guilty for anything apart from their actions" then you're asking me if I'm priviledged compared to black people and women. What's the point of asking that if it's not to make me reflect on how privileged I am (ie feel guilty)?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

That's precisely victim-talk though. So when YOU claim you're being discriminated against based on your gender and/or race, how it is any different from someone else with different gender and/or race making the same complaint? Why is it they're doing something reprehensible by playing the victim card and you're not?

Seems to be a double standard here.

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Did you just assume my gender?

Note I said "them" and not "us".

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

poop-

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Yes, but why does his question make you feel guilty? You're not promoting the white privelege concept (afaik), you're just lucking out from it. Not the same thing.

Making an observation is not playing the victim card. I'm not complaining about how I'm disadvantaged as a man.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Just leave this one well alone. One minute you're saying "nor think anyone should feel guilty for anything apart from their actions" then you're asking me if I'm priviledged compared to black people and women. What's the point of asking that if it's not to make me reflect on how privileged I am (ie feel guilty)?

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Men should feel guilt about being male about as much as young germans should feel responsibility for the actions of nazis. What they should do though, is recognize the history, understand it and its causes, and make sure the same shit won't happen again.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

Yes, but why does his question make you feel guilty? You're not promoting the white privelege concept (afaik), you're just lucking out from it. Not the same thing.

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It doesn't, but that's the intent of the post, whether he realises it or not.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Men should feel guilt about being male about as much as young germans should feel responsibility for the actions of nazis. What they should do though, is recognize the history, understand it and its causes, and make sure the same shit won't happen again.

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So Germans shouldn't feel responsible for the actions of the Nazis... but they have a greater responsibility than others to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Do you not see how this is contradictory?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Did you just assume my gender?

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No, I already know your gender I don't need to assume. Unless it changed or I've completely misunderstood you.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Note I said "them" and not "us".

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I'm pretty sure I could find a direct quote of you complaining about how you get treated as a white male, if only I could be arsed.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Who wants to start the Official crying about losing white male privilege thread?

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Not me. White male privilege hasn't existed in any of our lifetimes.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

It doesn't, but that's the intent of the post, whether he realises it or not.

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Ascribing motives to others is a bit more complicated than 'this fits my world view, so this is why they did it'

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I'm pretty sure I could find a direct quote of you complaining about how you get treated as a white male, if only I could be arsed.

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I'm certain that you couldn't. Even if you went back ten years to when I was banging on about the elite and 9/11.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

So Germans shouldn't feel responsible for the actions of the Nazis... but they have a greater responsibility than others to ensure it doesn't happen again?

Do you not see how this is contradictory?

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I object to the word 'greater' here. I don't think his post implied that at all.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm certain that you couldn't. Even if you went back ten years to when I was banging on about the elite and 9/11.

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Shit, that was easier than I thought.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Although that's very typical left wing crap to start banging on about "privilege" like we should feel guilty for being born white males.

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It's difficult to argue I'm privileged. I grew up in several foster homes and two children's homes. I left school with one GCSE, despite being exceptionally bright. I've spent my adult life drifitng in and out of failed jobs and failed relationships. Who gave me chances just because I'm a white male?

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Shit, that was easier than I thought.

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Dude that's a stretch.

poop -

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Making an observation is not playing the victim card. I'm not complaining about how I'm disadvantaged as a man.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Men should feel guilt about being male about as much as young germans should feel responsibility for the actions of nazis. What they should do though, is recognize the history, understand it and its causes, and make sure the same shit won't happen again.

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Poop -

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What they should do...

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Who is "they"? Why not "we"?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

It's difficult to argue I'm privileged. I grew up in several foster homes and two children's homes. I left school with one GCSE, despite being exceptionally bright. I've spent my adult life drifitng in and out of failed jobs and failed relationships. Who gave me chances just because I'm a white male?

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Well first, the whole 'white privelege' concept is not predicated on the extent to which it applies to one guy in middle England; it's much more general than that.

And second, you sound dangerously close to someone complaining that they're missing out on something they should have and are thus a victim. But I know that's not you.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Poop -



Who is "they"? Why not "we"?

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Maybe he didn't think about how you would interpret the two words differently because he's not a pedant. I don't know.

I did not interpret it as 'only they and no-one else' though.

I'm sure Cocco will happy to clarify his exact meaning.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

And second, you sound dangerously close to someone complaining that they're missing out on something they should have and are thus a victim. But I know that's not you.

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Did you know those facts already? You've been here six years, how many times have I "complained" about being dragged through the care system?

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

Maybe he didn't think about how you would interpret the two words differently because he's not a pedant. I don't know.

I did not interpret it as 'only they and no-one else' though.

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It's not pedantry. It's what he meant. He literally suggested "they" should take more responsibility after saying they shouldn't.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

poop -

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Only you are complaining, whether you admit it or not. You're saying you're being discriminated against by being lumped into a group of 'white priveleged males' to which you feel you haven't benefited from.

And you are saying you're disadvantaged because it implies that if it weren't for the goddamn lefties complaining about white privelege, you wouldn't be exposed to all this guilt-tripping.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Did you know those facts already? You've been here six years, how many times have I "complained" about being dragged through the care system?

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I don't want to get personal. It's your argument that, when you complain it's not being a victim but when someone different from you complains they are being a victim, that I object to.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

It's not pedantry. It's what he meant. He literally suggested "they" should take more responsibility after saying they shouldn't.

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Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Let's ask him?

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Only you are complaining, whether you admit it or not. You're saying you're being discriminated against by being lumped into a group of 'white priveleged males' to which you feel you haven't benefited from.

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which you feel you haven't benefited from.

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Wrong. Better would be "which I feel I don't identify with".

This isn't about personal benefit at all. My point in my post about the care system was to simply point out that privilege is, dare I use the word, subjective. You'd have been better off arguing that I am still indeed privileged, because lots of people in many parts of the world don't have access to foster homes and children's homes. I might have hated it at the time, but as an adult I can appreciate that my life would be a lot worse if not for the people who took me in.

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And you are saying you're disadvantaged because it implies that if it weren't for the goddamn lefties complaining about white privelege, you wouldn't be exposed to all this guilt-tripping.

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I already said I don't consider myself either guilty or privileged.
edit - I'm not disadvataged either.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

I don't want to get personal. It's your argument that, when you complain it's not being a victim but when someone different from you complains they are being a victim, that I object to.

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I'm not actually sure what you're getting at here. You might have a point that I have many times mistaken "observations" for "complaints", I can be feisty and get stuck into debates without really getting context right, but you won't hear me complaining about much, you just might mistake my observations for complaints.

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Originally Posted by CoccoBill

Men should feel guilt about being male about as much as young germans should feel responsibility for the actions of nazis. What they should do though, is recognize the history, understand it and its causes, and make sure the same shit won't happen again.

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See, it's interesting that you read this differently than I because we're both quite literate.

I see the first 'they' in the second sentence as somewhat ambiguous, as it could either refer to young Germans or men, since both subjects were present in the first sentence. So one could even interpret the second sentence as being all about how men should react to male privelege, not young Germans reacting to Nazi-era shit.

Also, the 'What they should do', regardless of who 'they' is referring to, doesn't read to me as 'they are solely responsible for doing this and everyone else isn't', which seems to be how you are reading it.

Edit: so much for Finland's amazing education system. This guy can't even write an airtight statement void of ambiguity in his second language.

Well the use of "they" implies that it doesn't include him. That's basic psychology, if he felt part of the group that needed to take greater responsibility, he'd say "we".

They and we are completely different words, it's very difficult to get the context wrong with such language.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'm not actually sure what you're getting at here. You might have a point that I have many times mistaken "observations" for "complaints", I can be feisty and get stuck into debates without really getting context right, but you won't hear me complaining about much, you just might mistake my observations for complaints.

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I guess I'm just a bit confused about what the whole 'victim' label means. If it means the person claims to be personally disadvantaged for some reason or other, why cannot that also simply be an observation? Or is it the fact that they demand some kind of justice or retribution that makes them a 'victim'? Or is the label solely meant for people who over-react to whatever thing that they feel is unfair?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Well the use of "they" implies that it doesn't include him. That's basic psychology, if he felt part of the group that needed to take greater responsibility, he'd say "we".

They and we are completely different words, it's very difficult to get the context wrong with such language.

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You can also refer to a group you belong to in a hypothetical way as 'they' - e.g., I can say 'Canadians watch too much hockey. They are fucking stupid over it' and not be inconsistent just because I could as easily substitute 'we' for 'they'.

Also, your argument doesn't address my main point that the 'they' is not necessarily implying 'only they and no-one else'. In the above example, my statement doesn't preclude there being other nationalities that also watch too much hockey.

I guess my point with the victim label is everyone can be a victim if we want to be. If I were so inclined, I could spend my life claiming to be a victim, using my "disadvantage" to gain sympathy. I don't. I might sometimes bring it up in conversation, but only if I feel it's relevant.

Professional victims are those who make a career out of it, for example feminists.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

You can also refer to a group you belong to in a hypothetical way as 'they' - e.g., I can say 'Canadians watch too much hockey. They are fucking stupid over it' and not be inconsistent just because I could as easily substitute 'we' for 'they'.

Also, your argument doesn't address my main point that the 'they' is not necessarily implying 'only they and no-one else'. In the above example, my statement doesn't preclude there being other nationalities that also watch too much hockey.

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This is super thin, and you're giving cocco too much credit for his fuck up. Let him reassess what he meant to say.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I guess my point with the victim label is everyone can be a victim if we want to be. If I were so inclined, I could spend my life claiming to be a victim, using my "disadvantage" to gain sympathy. I don't. I might sometimes bring it up in conversation, but only if I feel it's relevant.

Professional victims are those who make a career out of it, for example feminists.

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Well i see victims as much more whiny than most feminists are, 'cause they always come across as angry to me. They're still often disagreeable, but I don't think of them as manipulating the victim card so much as making a valid point and never shutting up about it.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is super thin, and you're giving cocco too much credit for his fuck up. Let him reassess what he meant to say.

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The second paragraph is rock solid. You only want it to be thin because it fits how you originally read his post.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

Well i see victims as much more whiny than most feminists are, 'cause they always come across as angry to me. They're still often disagreeable, but I don't think of them as manipulating the victim card so much as making a valid point and never shutting up about it.

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If this is thinly vieled mockery, it's wide of the mark. I'm the polar opposite of angry.

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Originally Posted by Poopadoop

The second paragraph is rock solid. You only want it to be thin because it fits how you originally read his post.

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I read his post how the language implied it. You're the one changing context to give him the benefit of the doubt, you're the one making it fit your position.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

If this is thinly vieled mockery, it's wide of the mark. I'm the polar opposite of angry.

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Read 'they' as 'feminists' and it will make more sense.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I read his post how the language implied it. You're the one changing context to give him the benefit of the doubt, you're the one making it fit your position.

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No you read the post how you read it, and I read it how i read it. What he actually meant only he can say.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Unless I misread that post, you're not saying those women's claims are wrong (unsound), only that the consequences to the men in those situations was unfair.

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Many of the women in those situations are claiming "I was a consenting adult, I willingly participated, and I was a victim". That is wrong. It is unsound.

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I.e. that there was nothing wrong with what the men did, and nothing wrong with the woman sharing the story of what happened, but that society's reaction to that is messed up.

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Only the first and third phrase describe what I'm saying. That middle sentiment is not espoused by me.

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So my point remains that you aren't mad about women making up lies.

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Fuck yeah I am.

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You're mad that society views this as acceptable.

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That too.

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You're mad that you feel vilified by society for "being a man."

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Not quite. I'm mad that society has robbed men of their right to the presumption of innocence and is compelling them to embrace certain behaviors under threat of catastrophic consequences. That's the opposite of freedom. Are you ok with diminishing freedom?

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The irony is that is exactly what the metoo movement is about, and you're railing that it's somehow in opposition to your freedom to be a man

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I just explained how it diminishes freedom.

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You're letting the conversation be about women against men, and not about decent people against harassers. That's on you

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What show are you watching dude? I'm quite sure I've stated explicitly in at least TWO recent posts that the solutions to these problems hinge on individuals taking responsibility for themselves. You're the one who insists on making this about group vs group. That kind of group vs group thinking is a symptom of indoctrination in the culture of identity politics. Get woke.

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See above. The group seems to represent your exact viewpoint, but you vilify the group while continuing to hold your view.

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No they don't! Their viewpoint is one of resistance against an oppressive male dominated patriarchy. How can I agree with that viewpoint if I don't agree that the patriarchy even exists!!

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Waaaah, waaaah. I am a victim because of my penis! Waaah waaaah!

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To be clear, I never claimed to be a victim myself. I said "men". Did you watch the video I posted? Men are less healthy, less educated, and make far less consumer decisions than women. Because of that I said that men are the more vulnerable sex. Do you have some basis with which to disagree with that statement other than than juvenile taunts?

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You literally just argued that you are a victim because you are a man.

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I don't believe I ever referenced myself. I said men are more vulnerable. I also presented some of the ways that women, and society in general, will leverage this vulnerability to victimize and scapegoat men.

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What could possibly be more snowflakey?

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Ong mentioned domestic violence a little bit ago. Care to guess what % of female-on-male domestic violence incidences go unreported? That's because of the sentiment you just expressed right there.

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IDK what subjective nonsense you have to think to assert that anything a man does is somehow "not acting like a man."
People who do things which offend you exist, and that doesn't make them any less human than you.

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It's not subjective nonsense. Turn on the TV once in a while and take a look at how men are portrayed. Take a look at what the archetype of a "good man" has become in recent decades. These men aren't assertive. They aren't industrious. They're pot bellied pussies glued to their couches. They're milque-toast losers with video game habits and porn-addictions. And men who don't fall into this mold are portrayed as oppressive members of the patriarchy.

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You're buying into the social BS that you rail against by attacking men for being men. You are just another wind-bag on the wrong side of the line if you think YOU can decide what is manly for other men.

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It's not just me. There is tons of data that show which personality traits are inherently male, and which are female.

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The exposure of hypocrisy couldn't be more plain.

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Really?? You're gonna have to explain it to me, cuz I ain't seeing it.