small problems

2nl dumb lucky jackass! today and yesterday i had only hands like this 1!

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG+1 ($0.97)
MP1 ($0.68)
Hero (MP2) ($2.14)
CO ($0.46)
Button ($0.77)
SB ($3.88)
BB ($2.24)
UTG ($3.34)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/jc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/as.gif
3 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.18) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/5c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ah.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.14, SB calls $0.14

Turn: ($0.46) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/jh.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.44, SB calls $0.44

River: ($1.34) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/7h.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $1.34 | Rake: $0.06

Results:
SB had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (flush, Ace high).
Hero mucked Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (two pair, Aces and Jacks).
Outcome: SB won $1.28

You should be happy. It's great to play with people who call your preflop raises with 84, and then call pot sized bets all the way
1) with nothing
2) with a tiny flush draw

Now that you are not a beginner on FTR anymore, stop posting standard hands like these or bad beats or brags. Show hands where you are not sure whether you made the right play, where you had a difficult decision to make, do not show the results and include whatever reads you have on your opponent.

why don't you vbet river bro? do you not like free money?

a donkey like that would have called, he called flop and turn where he draw, he would have called any bet i made on the river, just saved some money... at 2 nl they call anything...

Quote:

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a donkey like that would have called, he called flop and turn where he draw, he would have called any bet i made on the river, just saved some money... at 2 nl they call anything...

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That's what he is saying, you WANT him to call. To figure out why, put him on a range. Try it. You will see why you should bet the river.

in this case i knew i was beat so why anymore money? i think there is still a chance for me i bet, but i know i am behind why put money in the pot?

You're not beat at all and you are not behind. PUT HIM ON A RANGE!

he had the flush man and i just knew that... why play when you know that?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

he had the flush man and i just knew that... why play when you know that?

---

Are you admitting to being a superuser?

:)) sometimes my gut just tells me what he has... abd 90% of time my gut is right

bullshit... please put him on a rational range. Do it, it will be truly beneficial. We're saying this to help you. Please do not write your next post without ranges in it.

like i seen him play, he could be on 22+ and 78s+.... he called raised pots with that

okay, now please give us a calling range to a bet on the river

Ax, 22+

you do realize that you're saying he's folding flushes, right?

yes i am... you're right... but he showed 8h4h at the SD so putting donks on ranges doenst always work... with donk safe is best.

Soul owned.

Well played.

step 1) put your opponent on a range
step 2) win money from that range
why arent you trying to win money from Ax, 22+ if you didnt think FD's were in his range??

told you... i just felt he has the flush... and he did

if you felt he had flushes in his range then why didn't you put them in his calling range??

you make a good point. and i know you are right, but like i said and i repeat.... sometimes my gut tells me what to do, i do put them on a range, that is why i kept betting flop and turn... on the river i just you the donk made a flush even though he had no draw on the flop.

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3572/lopl.jpg

:)) this is whit what i am dealing at 2nl... this is whi i prefer safe

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG+1 ($2.06)
MP1 ($1.67)
MP2 ($0.93)
CO ($0.32)
Hero (Button) ($1.95)
SB ($2.35)
BB ($2.72)
UTG ($0.81)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qh.gif
UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 bets $0.08, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.08, CO calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.48, 5 folds, CO calls $0.24 (All-In)

Flop: ($0.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/2s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/9d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/7d.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($0.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/js.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($0.85) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3d.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $0.85 | Rake: $0.04

Results:
Hero had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (one pair, Queens).
CO had 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (flush, Jack high).
Outcome: CO won $0.81

last 3 days only this happends to me.... i am stagnating.... make 3-4 $ lose them to jackass like this ':) at 2nl ranges have small importance... they anything that crosses theyr mind in a sec and they get lucky

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...st-147397.html

I recommend reading all of the threads linked in the BC digest asap

Dude, it doesn't matter. You tried to put him on a range. That is a good first step. You were then squarely shown it was wrong because you did not include flush draws in it. Now the next step is to go back to work and come back in your next post with a range that includes flushes. Then we'll figure out together how you make money from that range.

Don't tell us what we are facing at 2nl. We all know that.

Go!

so its easy, on the flop bet, his range would be Ax, 22+ cause hes a donk... on the turn in that range include any flush draws combos.

ranges in theory shouldn't get bigger as you get to later streets

i know, but real poker sometimes they do.

No ranges never get wider. He cannot hold two cards on the river that he was not possibly holding on the flop, can he?

The best way to do it is street by street:
- what range do you think he calls your preflop bet with?
- what range do you think he calls your flop bet with
- what range do you think he calls your turn bet with

Be sure you do not add any hands from one range to the next. You can only remove hands (or keep them all in if you want, but never add a hand)

Then:
- what part of his range do you think he would call a bet on the river with?
- what part of his range do you think he would raise a river bet with?
- what part of his range do you think he would fold to a river bet?

i was saying it wrong, often hard to put in english what i think.... you are right.... they dont get wider

^^ please do it. You have to learn to do that if you want to progress. Look at how experimented people post their hands in here and how they reason when they put their opponent on a range.

Stacks - Bob 2012, Terry 2567, Billy 6720, Hero 4555, Englebert 1020, Jesus 967
Englebert posts sb 50
Jesus posts bb 100

Hero is BU and is dealt AKo

1 fold, Terry raises to 250, 1 fold, hero?

Ok, now we look at Terry's stats (and any notes). Turns out he's 19/16. We now ask ourselves what he could raise with. We put him on a raising range. Let's say for argument's sake he does this with 66+ JTo+ A5s+ ATo+, which is around the top 16% of hands. We have equity against this range of 61%, which means, if this range is accurate, our all-in-equity is 61%, that is, if we go all in and he calls this entire range, we win 61% of the time. Of course, he doesn't call his entire range to all in, so we don't go all in, because his calling range is much tighter to an all-in, a range that we would not have 61% against.

Hero raises to 750, 2 folds, Terry raises to 2567 and is all in

Ok, now we adjust his range, because there's a lot of hands he could 2bet with that he would then fold to a 3bet. We remove hands from the raising range, we do not add any. It doesn't make sense to give him, say 44 when he shoves if he can't have it when he raises. If he has it when he shoves, the previous range was wrong.

So now we give him a 4bet shove range. Let's say we got tons of notes on him and we know he only calls AQ and 99/88, folds AJ, other broadways and aces and 77-worse, and shoves the rest. That gives him a 4bet shove range of TT+ AK. We have equity against this range of 40%. We then either call or fold based on the equity compared to the pot odds. More on this here http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

That's the point of putting people on ranges. It allows us to make mathematically sound decisions, the more accurate the range, the more accurate our response.

Quote:

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our all-in-equity is 61%, that is, if we go all in and he calls this entire range, we win 61% of the time

---

Thanks for your post, I would just like to remark that this is not exactly true because of the times you tie, which can be a non negligible % of the time in some situations. All-in equity=61% really means that if you do this play 10,000,000 times or so with a pot of $1, your profit will be very very close to $6,100,000. This takes into account the times you tie. That is why the 61% is called pot equity and not win%.

ty, you really are great by doing this....i know this things.... i am on tilt now... had 34$ thursday, now i am down to 16$... last 3 days all went wrong...that is why i just ... dont know... seems that i atract all donks... like the gravity :)

Thanks daviddem. My understanding is still pretty vague. This range game is the part of my game I'm trying to focus on the most, I recognise the mathematical benefit of an accurate range.

did range help you in any at 2 nl?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

did range help you in any at 2 nl?

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Not really. I'm now a break-even 5nl player, not a winning 2nl player. Range is becoming a more important factor. But I tried to apply ranges at 2nl. The reason I was able to win easily at 2nl is patience.

this is why i said that... you know damn well that in 2 nl is a lot about luck... no matter how much you try to put them on a range, they cards will always be outside that range but hiting the board over you....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

this is why i said that... you know damn well that in 2 nl is a lot about luck... no matter how much you try to put them on a range, they cards will always be outside that range but hiting the board over you....

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It's not about luck, it's about patience. If they have cards outside of an expected range, then make a note, give them a wider range next time.

that is easy... donks have this range: 22+ and 23o + :)) really :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

that is easy... donks have this range: 22+ and 23o + :)) really :D

---

Some of them do have this range. That's great, that's why we have a bankroll, that's why we don't play beyond our means, so that we can take the hits against these high-variance players when they get lucky. Bottom line is, they're not winning players. Focus on your own leaks, don't worry about other people's.

If people are showing down junk, make a note, use note when applying range.

i know you are right... when i am damn frustrated like this, i make no sense when talking.... this is the right way to play, like you all say , i just to learn and keep a lot cooler

he was always trying to steal blinds... first time i call him in SB or BB... never saw a hand from him, never got SD, but he played agg no matter board structure, always when reraised on any street he folded...

on the flop i put him on Axso, 77,44, 99+, any flush combos.

on the turn i give him the same range, but i think he doant have the flush...

qyPokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($2.16)
Hero (SB) ($1.93)
BB ($5.10)
UTG ($0.89)
MP1 ($5.13)
MP2 ($0.74)
CO ($1.81)

Preflop: Hero is SB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/as.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/td.gif
4 folds, Button bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.05, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.14) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/7s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ah.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4s.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.12, Button raises to $0.30, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.74) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3s.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.42, Hero calls $0.42

River: ($1.58) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/7h.gif (2 players)
hero???

i am thinking going all in.

should i use the fold equity on 2nl? i am using pokerstove on big pots, and anytime i get over 60% i bet the pot or go all in.... but, people here just dont fold, even though i put them on the right ranges.... just i should just do it as a exercise for me in the future and just keep playing only my cards in 2nl without trying bluffs based on equity?

- your hand above, 3b preflop
- why do you include 99-KK in his raising range when there is an A on the flop and you just donk bet into him? You think he is bluffing?
- why do you think he could not have the flush on the turn if he had all the flush combos on the flop?
- why do you think of going all-in on the river? If you want to go all in anywhere in this hand, it should be on the flop. The hand of your opponent did not get any weaker since the flop, and yours did not get any stronger. If you think he really has that many flush draws and that many weak aces in his range and stuff like 99-KK, and that he is going to call if you 4b on the flop, then you should raise (not necessarily all in yet, but raise). On the contrary, if you think that he only raises your bet on the flop with AK or AQ or AJ, then you should fold.

Most of the time you should bet, raise or fold. Calling should be the less frequent of your actions. DO NOT CALL BECAUSE YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU SHOULD BET OR FOLD. JUST MAKE A DECISION.

When you bet or raise, always ask yourself why: there are only two reasons:
1) for value when you think your hand has a better equity than that of the calling range of your opponent.
2) as a bluff because you think he might lay down a hand better than yours.

If these conditions are not met, then most of the time you should check or fold. One scenario in which a call is correct is when you are facing a bet or a raise and you think your hand is better but your opponent will probably NOT call if you raise, or when you think he has the better hand but you have a draw with good implied odds. Then calling is an option.

Generally at the micros, you almost only bet for value.

"Using fold equity" is bluffing or semi-bluffing. Generally you should only try that against tight players, or good players who are capable of laying down a good hand when they feel they are beat.

Keep trying and practicing putting your opponents on ranges. It is more an art than a science and it needs work and practice. Do it every time you play and after you play when reviewing your hands.

never thought 3bet pf with that in that position

the range was anything i thought he could have played there...

i gave the range, but i didnt believe he has a better hand, like i said, he always tried to steal blinds and the way he acted was rutine for him... saw him play like this many times like this

on the river all in because he would call only with made flush nothing else, and that even that i put it in range, the way he acted on turn made me think he doesnt have it.... so a semibluff.

I would fold ATo on the sb to a raise (depending on villain), but I prefer 3bet to call. And flop is most definitely a fold when he raises. Yes, sometimes he has a flush draw and we fold the better hand, but usually it's a better ace and we're crushed. 3bet pre is ok if this guy is raising a lot of hands in late position. And if he 4bets us, AT is such an easy lay down. But I prefer to fold, I'm just not interested in raised pots oop with AT, it's a weak hand. I'd sooner play 67s anyday.

All in on river is bad, his calling range to a shove includes no hands we beat. Shoving this river would be a bluff, it's very important to know when your bet is a bluff or a value bet. There are 0 hands that we beat that he can call, so there is no value. There are some hands that can fold that we lose to, such as AJ for example, so there is bluffing value, but not a lot. This is not a great spot for big pot action, pick your spots better.

well, i went all in and he folded.... but that is why i posted to get a more experienced opinion, and seems i got lucky cause my play was bad...

ty,,, will remember next time

Quote:

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I would fold ATo on the sb to a raise (depending on villain),

---

Really? Come on, it's a steal raise from a button who has been stealing every time he had a chance (see reads). You're way ahead of his range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by daviddem

Really? Come on, it's a steal raise from a button who has been stealing every time he had a chance (see reads). You're way ahead of his range.

---

Yes, you're right. I did say depending on villain, but I failed to take into account OP's reads on villain in this spot. "he was always trying to steal blinds" means I would 3bet, not fold. But I'd need a note or read to tell me that he raises light in late position for me to play ATo, if we have no read then I fold. I'll pay more attention to OP's reads in future before I respond.

UTG is loose , his range is any suited connectors, 22+ and Kxs...
CO is tight and the kind of player that small raises AKs, AA, like 2-3 bb....
on turn i have a made full, CO cant be having K6 or K4, he wouldnt be playing that... so he is on AK or KQ, KJ... so to beat me he has 3 outs for his second card and 3 outs for the 6... that makes 6 outs, wich gives me 88% favourite...


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

SB ($2)
BB ($2.09)
UTG ($1.80)
MP1 ($0.75)
MP2 ($2)
CO ($4.46)
Hero (Button) ($3.06)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4h.gif
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO bets $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.15) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/6h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/kh.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/kc.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.15) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4c.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.08, UTG calls $0.08, CO raises to $0.24, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO raises to $0.56

hero calls , all in or fold?

Snap all in against all his trip K's. Why do you even ask if you are a 88% favorite and you think he will call your all-in? Or if you think he won't call an all-in, just keep raising smaller, whatever you think is best to get all your money in the pot.

A tiny % of the time he will hit his 3 outer or have KK, but so what?

His raise size to $0.56 is ridiculous, he might do that because he is wary of your raise, so don't go all in yet, raise smaller or even just call if you think he won't call a further raise.

I'd just shove. He might have us beat, but there's only three combos of 66, and one combo of KK. Compare that to eight combos of AK and we have him beat twice as often as we lose against a range of 66/KK/AK. If we think he might be capable of folding AK to a raise, then just call, but I doubt anyone folds AK to a shove at 2nl in this spot. If your read about CO being tight is accurate, then he has K4 and K6 never. I guess sometimes he has worse kings, like KQ/KJ, but not as often as AK imo, and of course worse kings increase our equity. There are bad cards for us that can fall on the turn and destroy our equity, such as 6, K and A, so I would just get it in now while we're miles ahead.

bet turn bigger, 3b bigger, obviously it's time to get in a cib war. Seriously though, 5b big, but don't shove.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

bet turn bigger, 3b bigger, obviously it's time to get in a cib war. Seriously though, 5b big, but don't shove.

---

Don't shove? Do you think a king folds at 2nl?

i went all in... he had AK, got the A on the river and stacked me off :)
same opp 2 hands later... raises 2 BB in eraly, i call with 77, got set on flop, bet , he all in, i call... has AA, A on the river staks me off again :))

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Don't shove? Do you think a king folds at 2nl?

---

there is only one way a king will maybe find a fold here - and that's if you shove. Better to let him 6b his trips himself, or call then he can't fold on the river anyway

@op, the better you are at poker, the more frequently you will suffer obscene bad beats and the less frequently you will inflict them on others (think about why this is). Then go and Google slansky bucks. And think, 'wow, glad i know about bankroll management, imagine if i'd lost my whole roll in that hand'. etc.

also, it happens
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post1957927

i kind of got to the point where i smile on these... happends.... thats poker, my BR is fine :) 4$ went to 40$ in a week, i lose sometimes just like any poker player,but i win most times cause that is why i listen to whats here :) anyway, just wanted your opinion, more people think better then just one :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

there is only one way a king will maybe find a fold here - and that's if you shove. Better to let him 6b his trips himself, or call then he can't fold on the river anyway

---

I see your point. It's just I don't think AK ever folds this spot at 2nl due to it's equity against weaker kings. These weaker trip kings might fold though, and I realise we don't want this, even if he doesn't have them very often. If I'm honest, this point should be irrelevant, because hero should 3bet more at turn, meaning villain's 4bet is larger, and more committing, making a 5bet shove automatic. But noted, as played a shove is bad if we have a weaker king than AK in his range.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I fold KQ utg

---

in 6max???? No way I am folding KQ utg in 6max. Probably not in FR either.

depends on opps.... there are times when you should, even play just AKs+ in FR from UTG

these are the exact notes i have on him:
Tight
defend agrresive draws
all in on overpairs and flopped sets

so, after the raise i put him on AK, AQ, AJ, 1010+,44
if he's made set J,10 or 4 i have only 48% chances to win
if he is on AK then its tie and i have 36% chances to win
if he is AJ then i am behind and i have 3*K+4*Q+8diamonds=60% to win
if he is AQ i am in front
if he is QQ,KK my chances are about 45% to win....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG+1 ($2.60)
MP1 ($4.89)
MP2 ($3.18)
MP3 ($5)
CO ($5)
Button ($5.49)
Hero (SB) ($3.21)
BB ($1.52)
UTG ($2.79)

Preflop: Hero is SB with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ad.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/kd.gif
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.08, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.42) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/jd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/td.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, MP2 raises to $2.98 (All-In)

Hero?

Code:

---

Board: Jd Td 4h
Dead: 

    equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    52.303%      52.08%    00.23%              15467            67.00  { TT+, 44, AJs, AJo }
Hand 1:    47.697%      47.47%    00.23%              14099            67.00  { AdKd }

---

Against this range, you have 47.7% equity. If you include more draws then it's even better.

The pot odds are good enough to call even against the tighter range I gave him.

Do the exercise to calculate (manually) what your pot odds are and compare them to your equity.

hmmm... i am behind in all cases except AK,AQ... would you call if you played this hand?

You may be behind but you have strong draws to a flush and a straight.
Figure out why you have to call.
Calculate your pot odds.

You've already been directed by OngBonga to this thread

Read and apply what this teaches you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DBRose

in 6max???? No way I am folding KQ utg in 6max. Probably not in FR either.

---

Wow, all the way back to page one. Erm, just out of curiosity...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i have a problem/// i read in the preflop article posted at the digest, that some do raises with KQ in UTG.... i tried doing that, but i flop just a pair... K or Q and i bet but i get reraised i fold it immediatlly afraid that his got the same pair with A kicker.... is it right to do play it like this?


sorry for many silly question ...but i just wanna make sure i am doing right the play and again sorry for my english.

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Where does he say 6max?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I fold KQ utg

---

Where did I say 6max?

6max is different, I might fold KQo, I might raise it, depends on factors like stacks, villains, stage of tournament etc. At the FR cash tables, I muck KQo utg some 100% of the time.

As for AK hand, I'm not sure. He really has to have QQ+ in his range to make this a call. If he has sets only, we're in bad shape since the board pairs one in three times. Can he flat QQ+ pre? That's an important factor you have to decide. If he 4bets QQ+, then fold to the shove, because we only have 34% equity against sets.

I don't see him doing this with a draw if the notes are accurate. He called a 3bet remember, so he doesn't have Q9 diamonds, just about the only draw a tight player can shove here since we hold the Ad. It's either the range that daviddem gave, in which case call, or it's sets only, in which case fold.

thats the thing, in case he has a set, QQ+, i have 48% to win,but i have to put 2,98$ in a 3,7 $ pot so thats not profitable.
my best chances are if he's AQ+ or AJ....

but, how i know that? in one case its profitable, the other isnt, equity is 47% but the money i put in is 81% of the pot? so please explain like a 2 years old.... how does that make it profitable?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

thats the thing, in case he has a set, QQ+, i have 48% to win,but i have to put 2,98$ in a 3,7 $ pot so thats not profitable.
my best chances are if he's AQ+ or AJ....

but, how i know that? in one case its profitable, the other isnt, equity is 47% but the money i put in is 81% of the pot? so please explain like a 2 years old.... how does that make it profitable?

---

Ok, let's say there's $10 in the pot. Villain bets $100, a massive overbet.

There's now $110 in the pot, and we have to call $100. If we win, we make $110, if we lose, we lose $100, so assuming we have exactly 50% equity with no chops possible, we will win $10 every two hands.

I'm sure someone can explain it better than me, but if we have 50% equity or more, then no bet can price us out except in extremely rare circumstances involving rake. With 48% equity, we have to consider how much dead money there is ($10 in the example I just gave), but we don't need a lot.

50% yes, but i am on 47% so i find no reason to call....81% of the pot investement, 47% equity, average odds to get my hand under 45% so i am down big time... with these stats i find it hard to call it... maybe i am dumb, but i just cant see a reason to call here.

And the extremely rare circumsatnces, for the sake of debate...

Once, at 2nl, I folded the nuts on the river. And it wasn't a stupid thing to do. I was bb with a jack, and flopped a broadway gutshot. It was checked down to river, and I made the straight on the river. The sb was a nit, I hadn't seen him bluff once. He shoved 100bb+ with three people to act behind into a pot of limps. I realised that if I called, we were chopping, and the rake I would pay was worth more than the 1bb I had invested. I decided he makes this move without a jack some 0% of the time, so I folded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

50% yes, but i am on 47% so i find no reason to call....81% of the pot investement, 47% equity, average odds to get my hand under 45% so i am down big time... with these stats i find it hard to call it... maybe i am dumb, but i just cant see a reason to call here.

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Ok, I'll try and use your hand. In this AK hand, at the point of shove, there is $0.72 dead money, that is, money that was in the pot before the shove. This gives us a buffer, this dead money means we don't need 50% equity.

Let's say there's no chops possible for the sake of making it a little easier, and say 48% equity means we win 48 times in 100, and we lose 52 times in 100.

You call 100 times, and lose 52 x $2.68, or $139.36
You win 48 times, and win 48 x $3.40, or $163.2

A profit, despite having only 48% equity. Do you see how the dead money gives us a buffer?

ok, that was what i didnt got right... thanks, is clear now :)

Does anyone know how to calculate the break-even equity for this shove?

b * (1-x) = p * x, where x=equity 0<x<1, p is pot before our call and b is the bet amount we have to call.

So for this shove we fill in pot and bet since we know those

2.68(1-x) = 3.40 * x
2.68(1) - 2.68x =3.4x ;multimply b or 2.68 into 1 and x
2.68= 6.08x ;add 2.68x to both sides
x= .4407 ; divide both sides by 6.08 to get x alone =

as you mention we should account for rake too which could look like this
b * (1-x) = px -.05(b+p) ; that assumes 5% rake and b+p is total pot

2.68(1-x) = 3.4x - .05 (6.08)
2.68(1) - 2.68x =3.4x - .30
2.98= 6.08x ;
x= .4901

rake is :(

At first this surprised me but the pot is .42 on the flop and almost that entire amount will be taken in rake (.30) so thats why we need so close to 50% equity to stack.

fwiw I'd still stack here at the micros, someworse flushdraws stack here and we could have 19 outs with gutshot, pair, fd. his sizing is really stupid for anything other than a strong draw. does he have 98s and crap in his range? QQ makes some sense and kk++ seems like it will be 4bet pre often.

edit, I am lazy but both the above calculations fail to account for our 30 cents that went into the pot on the flop when we lead.

edit: oops, I am late ^^^. This goes a long way to show how bad rake is!

Break even equity = pot odds (not taking rake into account).

It's a good exercise to calculate the break even equity when the pot is raked. Refer to the "analyzing calling an all-in" thread, all the math you need to do that is in there.

If he has JJ-TT,44,AJs,AJo then the call is pretty much break even (not taking rake into account), so it is slightly -EV after rake. But just a few draws in his range and it's a call.

I have read that thread obviously, but I think I need to go through it again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Break even equity = pot odds (not taking rake into account).

---

This makes sense, and it smacks me as obvious. Yeah rake is rearing its ugly head here, I was expecting break-even equity to be around 45%. And working out just how much rake plays a part can be tricky thanks to rakeback and FPP points and whatnot.

I think I call this spot too, and I don't think I waste much time about it. I think I'd consider it the dog end of a flip against most ranges, and climb aboard for the ride.

Thanks dneureiter and daviddem for answering my question.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Wow, all the way back to page one. Erm, just out of curiosity...



Where does he say 6max?



Where did I say 6max?

6max is different, I might fold KQo, I might raise it, depends on factors like stacks, villains, stage of tournament etc. At the FR cash tables, I muck KQo utg some 100% of the time.

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lol, ok, bro, you're right, but I didn't see him say FR either. The folding KQ UTG just caught my eye and that's why I'm "all the way back to page one" and if you are doing it in 6max it's probably wrong. I really cannot think of too many situations at all where you should fold it UTG unless you are playing like a nit. Which isn't necessarily wrong at 5NL, but you could probably be making more by placing it in your range.

just for clarification I am talking cash, not tournies.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DBRose

just for clarification I am talking cash, not tournies.

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To be fair, I'm pretty bad at 6max cash rooms. I do play 6max mtts though, and have a reasonable record, and KQo is certainly in my UTG opening range. As for 9+, in MTTs I might well open KQo, depends on table of course, but at cash rooms FR I am a nit UTG. I'm looking at adding KQs to my opening range UTG, but I think I'll keep folding KQo.

ty for posts ,.... i did call that hand and he was on J set and i didnt got my Q or diamond.... anyway, after all those i am sure i did not make a mistake by calling even if i lost...

KQs in UTG depends on table, i open with it but i play damn carefull on te board and depending who calls my opening.

when you get called by a TAG and opened with KQ having one pair on flop is damn tricky.

its not the place for this question , but on poker tools no one replyed....

so , i down the PT3 but it blocks when starts downloading the database he requests after instalation./// uninstalled and installed again but i have the same problem... tried it for couple times but the same problems... can anyone please help me with this? i really want the tracker

PokerTracker &bull; Index page

register and post queries .
When you first get PT3 there are many teething problems that get thrown up.

You may as well ask your questions about PT3 there. You do get more personal help.

Or try Holdem Manager. It's a big download but it installs very easily.

i just arrived on the table, i havent played with him before ( no notes) and it hand nr.3 here so i have no reads on him.... his BB reraise makes me give him an AKso, JJ+ range....

after the c/r on the flop i decide to fold... i think he's on QQ+, 33, 55.... with JJ or AKso i dont think he would go all in.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($1.96)
Hero (UTG+1) ($2.68)
MP1 ($2.37)
MP2 ($1.57)
CO ($4.96)
Button ($2.51)
SB ($0.65)
BB ($1)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/as.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qd.gif
UTG calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.10, 6 folds, UTG raises to $0.24, Hero calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.51) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/5c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qc.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.28, UTG raises to $1.72 (All-In)

hero folds... what do you think?

Dangerous. He could have air, he could have the nuts. Without reads I'd fold, but if I thought this guy was just an idiot, I'd snappit.

Pre flop, I would maybe fold to the 3bet. Again, we have no reads, personally I would prefer to see how this guy plays before I call AQ to his 3bet.

A limp reraise preflop from a full stacked opp UTG is often AA, sometimes KK. More rarely it's a tilting donkey who finds it impolite that you raise his limp, or a stone cold bluff, trying to represent AA. Without anymore reads, I fold AQ and make a note of what he did, and keep an eye on him.

that why i didnt fold preflop, because of the limp raise, but postflop, that is why exactly why i folded, the c/r on the flop made me put him on a set,even if not a QQ+, but for sure a set 3 or 4 , that is a standard reraise at 2nl on floped sets from what i have seen.

YouTube - 50 Cent- I Get It In(Final+Lyrics)

@the first hand posted

ITP Penneywize makes an ass out of himself

this thread qualify for blog status yet? seriously f****n 4 pages, this is a blog. ship this to the blog OP forum and let us call a spade a spade.

If you call a spade a spade in this country, you get accused of racism.

i finally managed to install PT3. because i havent got experience with it, i would like you to tell me something.
when i have the HUD on, i have some stats about every player. i am not sure i am interpreting those stats corectly so please tell in these ex if i am wrong.

1. stats for player are : 14/8/ AFq 56 over 50... from this i understand that he is pretty tight and raised majority of his pre flop hand and from the AFq i could make that he is agressiv on made hand and passiv other.

2. 67/4/ AFq 94 over 50.... here the opp is very loose and limps most hands or just calls raises and he is verry verry agressiv

now my 1st question, did i got those stats right? and 2nd question, how is better to play if i HU with one of this guys? the first one i should give him credit when he bets and according to my hand play ? the loose one, if i have a decent hand, should i call more often his bets? or reraise him according to my hand strenght? i mean, 2nd, question, that is what i should get from their stats, not asking how to play vs a loose or a tight player.

sorry if are silly fro most of you, but since i have now PT3, i wanna get the best out of it.

ty.

First villain seems reasonably solid, 14/8 means he's playing decent hands, and he's cbetting around half the time, which is pretty standard. I'd show this guy respect unless he does something crazy. He's raising 8% of hands, which is something like 88+, suited broadway, AJ+.

If I'm playing him, I'd play strong hands against him. This guy understands poker, I will avoid stacking off against this guy with anything less than a set. I will look for value with top pair, but fold if he raises.

Second villain is a loose passive donk, the kind of player we want at the table. He's only raising really good starting hands, but he's calling way too much. Pre flop he is far from aggressive, he is passive. Post flop he is aggressive, which strongly suggests he's a mindless moron, since he's seeing a lot of flops. If he raises pre flop, show him a lot of respect (I'd probably fold AQs), but don't respect his calls. When he raises, he has a very tight range, but when he limps or calls a raise, he has a very wide range. Don't try and bluff this guy because he probably won't fold.
He's raising 4% of hands, that's something like TT+ AQ+.
But he's playing 67% of hands. To give you an idea of how loose this is, a range of any pair, any broadway, any ace and any suited cards, this range represents 46% of starting hands. He's playing even looser than this. He's an idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's doing.

I'd fold if he raises unless I have a premium hand. But, he's seeing a lot of flops with junk and is betting them. Top pair will never get folded against this guy, without top kicker I'd probably just let him fire away, calling each bet to showdown. With TPTK+, I'll get aggressive, since he probably continues with worse top pair and draws. I might even call second pair down to showdown if the bets are small enough. Just try and get this guy isolated in pots you've raised, and value bet your big hands.

I would suggest playing about with pokerstove. Put some ranges into stove (click a player, then the preflop tab), have a look at how much a certain range is in terms of % of starting hands. This will help you get the most out of your PT3 stats, you will have a better understanding what it means if someone has stats of 14/8. Of course, just because someone plays 14% of hands, doesn't mean it's the top 14% of hands, they might have a thing for 84s on the button (like me), or maybe they think 89s is better than AJo (I'd prefer 89s multi-way), but it's a very good guide.

ty, i hope soon i could get so elaborated in my posts :) really helps me what you said. i had an ideea about the stats but not as clear as you said it.

sorry for another silly quoestion.... is it normal to have a week losing constantly? i am at 2nl the last week i have lost 20$ that is average 3$ a day , but i changed nothing in my game , i mean i play the same way i played when i turned 4$ into 80$ but now every hand i play just gets beat.... i know about variation and downswing but is it normal to last so long? or maybe i should look more carefully into my game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

sorry for another silly quoestion.... is it normal to have a week losing constantly? i am at 2nl the last week i have lost 20$ that is average 3$ a day , but i changed nothing in my game , i mean i play the same way i played when i turned 4$ into 80$ but now every hand i play just gets beat.... i know about variation and downswing but is it normal to last so long? or maybe i should look more carefully into my game?

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It is normal to have a period of bad luck, that's the nature of card games, but it won't hurt to assess your game to make sure you're not making obvious mistakes. Sometimes a run of bad luck can be horrible, like losing with AA five times in a row or watching your junk hands that you fold hit flop after flop, but so long as you are making mostly +ev decisions then the bad luck will stop eventually, AA cannot keep losing, people can't keep hitting their flush, they don't always have KK when you have QQ.

But for sure have a look at PT3 and see where you're losing money. Maybe you're calling too many raises, or maybe raising too much. Isolate hands where you have lost big $$ in the last week and see if you can play the hand better, maybe post one or two in here.

i rewied my hands on PT3 on every position and made some mistakes of course, but the mistakes are about 6 $,,,, the rest were just hands like flush he got full on river, 2 AA getting rocked ( was all in preflop these alone are 7$ ), set 10 got smashed on turn ( all in on flop-4$- got Q he made straight) and the rest are just totally missed flop with good starting hands....

so yeah 33% of lost money are my fault, the rest its variation, i asked because told you, all weeks session are -, just wondering if a badswing could be a long one like this... ty ongbonga

When you have a few thousands of hands recorded in PT3, post a screenshot of your stats (global and by position), and people will comment and tell you where they think the problems are in your game. Don't do it too early though, normally you need about 10,000 hands to have postflop stats that start to mean something.

24/12 AFq54 over 60 hands....

my range for him preflop is QQ+, AKs...

his reraise gave me implied odds to call

i did poker stove then and gave 55% equity....

what would you do here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($5.40)
Button ($5)
SB ($3.87)
BB ($1.16)
Hero (UTG) ($5.53)
UTG+1 ($1.01)
MP1 ($2.89)
MP2 ($2.26)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4d.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4h.gif
Hero bets $0.06, 4 folds, Button raises to $0.26, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.55) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/kd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qd.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qc.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Turn: ($0.55) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4c.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.54, Button raises to $1.12,

Hero???

I think it's fine to call pre flop, we're both deep so the implied odds are indeed there. It's a tough spot, I really don't like his check on the flop. He doesn't seem concerned about the diamonds, he's letting you see a free card. It stinks of QQ/KK, but it could be AA/AK worried you have a queen. Your bet seems to me too large, why pot it with a full house? When he raises it's very worrying. Can he have AQ? I don't think so, he would bet the flop for sure. I can't think what he can take this line with that we beat, but then I don't think I'm ever folding a solid full house at 2nl. (by solid, I mean villain needs two hole cards to beat us, a turn king or queen would make our full house very weak).

If we call this raise, the pot will just over $2. One might imagine a river bet would then be around $1.40 maybe. We can avoid stacking off here but I don't think I fold.

But if this is KK/QQ and we do lose our stack, it's not a problem. How much do you lose with a full house compared to how much you win? This will happen from time to time, we'll have the near nuts but they'll have the nuts. But that works both ways, sometimes you'll have KK/QQ here and they'll have 44.

And off the off chance he has KQ, that's ok, make a note so we know in future he can 3bet KQ on the button against an early position raiser.

Don't be concerned about the times where we lose our stack with a near-nut hand, be concerned about the times you're calling raises with top pair, or stacking off light against short stacks.

For what it's worth, I think anyone who can fold this is fucking awesome.