Christmas Carnage II: the afterglow

Wolf Den

Dead Thread


mini-game 1 results:

Hoopy	3	1	ong	Angel
rascal	4	3	ong	blacksmith
ong	4	3	gabe	seer
boog	6	2	JKDS	Seer
BID	6	9	BID	Seer
rilla	1	2	boog	vig
SMF	1	3	rilla	vig
gabe	1	1	gabe	cult-leader, voteless jester
JKDS	1	1	JKDS	dayvig /JOAT

mini-game 2 results:

Hoopy	3	6	Hoopy	V
ong	4	3	ong	W
JKDS	5	7	boog	W
boog	6	1	rilla	W
BID	8	1	ong	W
gabe	1	1	rilla	W
rascal	1	1	gabe	W
rilla	1	2	rilla	V
SMF	1	2	rilla	V

Final setup:
9-players (2W, 7V)

wolves:
1 wolf PR (ong) - received 1x roleblock for 1st role and I pushed 1x to unlimited RB for 2nd role.
1 vanilla (boog)

villagers:
1 village Seer (gabe) - 1x peek to be used only on N2.
1 village Backup Seer - the village only got 1 PR, while the game design intent was to have 3 PRs in the game.
5 vanilla villagers

Results:
Wolf win @ final 3.

boog and ong GG !!

congrats on being the only people with wins this year

i'll admit i'm kinda salty about it but you get props where props are due

i'd like to know everyone's thoughts on the minigames to start off. i think with some refinement it might create a more fun environment but i'm not set at all



MMM, thanks for modding. this whole thing wouldnt work without good mods. you even showed some courage in introducing a crazy pregame activity

GG guys. Thanks for the mod MMM.

there were no clues i was the seer other than hard defending JKDS (based on tone not peeking). wolves ran pretty good on that imo


^salty post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

there were no clues i was the seer other than hard defending JKDS (based on tone not peeking). wolves ran pretty good on that imo


^salty post

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IMO, there were two seer peeks. Yours of JKDS and mine of Ong. Clearly, the wolves knew mine was fake.

Taking rascal to final day was risky as fucking hell.

I think that was a really great set up. The pre game has the potential to screw people over and could probably do with tweaking to avoid certain outcomes, but it's a great idea.

Seers can be brutally powerful in small games and to win as wolf with a seer and a backup seer in the game (and to have them both nailed as seers and dead by d2) is pretty sick really.

Final day, I really enjoyed that. I mean I honestly felt it was a coin flip, it all depended on who rascal went for imo. There came a point where I felt it was too late for rascal to shake off gator, but I was just waiting for someone to vote so it was over. That was exhausting.

Thanks for modding mojo, it's a great set up indeed.

I picked gabe for seer and me for wolf.

I've apologised to gabe by pm for that, it was rude.

I was always voting for Ong until gator made his reads, which I still say weren't from a villager perspective. I think I was in f3 with 2 wolves. :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

I was always voting for Ong until gator made his reads, which I still say weren't from a villager perspective. I think I was in f3 with 2 wolves. :rolleyes:

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I was quick to regret my decision to nom hoopy, but nomming you was too obviously my best move. I felt from a gator wolf pov, he'd have to nom hoopy and try to get your vote on me. That's what I was banking on you thinking. I never dreamed I'd get gator to vote you, which it appears he was ready to do too. That ended up being very comfortable for me over what was an uncomfortable but excellent final day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

The pre game has the potential to screw people over and could probably do with tweaking to avoid certain outcomes, but it's a great idea.

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Do go on. I think it was a huge success, but I did a lot of little things that may or may not have pushed it to a good balance.
E.g. not posting player lists at start-of-day


There's a different kind of trust in the mod in this format than usual.

I did not make ong a wolf and a blacksmith and an angel.
I did give him roleblocking power, which I think suits a wolf more than the other roles, and I gave him unlimited uses in a game that was supposed to have 3 1x powers in it.

I overly nerfed the Seer to 1x peek on N2, since I felt like - with only 9 players - the game is half broken by a dead wolf on D1 and a Seer claim on D2.

So you had to trust me to give you a balanced game where you had no idea what mechanics are in play.


I agree with gabe that I'd love to run this format again, but it takes a mod with enough bravado and time to set it all up on the amazingly short notice that the format introduces. It would be well worth allowing a 48 pause after the 2nd mini-game before the game thread starts in full just to allow the mod time to mull over what he's been asked to create.

FTR villagers are far too OP to be given N0 peeks.

That said -
If someone had requested a Seer w/ a N0 peek, and won the mini-game, I'd have done my best to get it in the game.

***
Also - that gunsmith role is awesome.

Each night the gunsmith makes a 1-shot dayvig gun.
He can make it real or fake.
He can give it to any player the next day; he cannot use it.

Real guns work as a normal dayvig.
fake guns kill the shooter.

If the gun is not used by nightfall, it is out of the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Do go on.

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gabe was n1 nom from the instant I opened my role pm. It kinda sucks for him that his game is tainted before anyone has even posted. I kinda regretted my selfish and impolite strategy when I realised it worked, but at the same time it's war, right? Who gives a fuck about being polite.

I think the nerfed seers was right, full seers in 9p games can break them quickly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

gabe was n1 nom from the instant I opened my role pm. It kinda sucks for him that his game is tainted before anyone has even posted. I kinda regretted my selfish and impolite strategy when I realised it worked, but at the same time it's war, right? Who gives a fuck about being polite.

I think the nerfed seers was right, full seers in 9p games can break them quickly.

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Actually, 9er games with a seer with an N0 villa peek is very balanced. That's the format for turbos on POG and after thousands of games, it's about 51% village wins.

FU Ong and your FPS wolf play. That's what I have to say.

Sorry Rascal, but Ong's nom of Hoopy won it for him as I couldn't figure out why villager Rascal would still be alive with the two of us in the game.

Well played Ong. You did a really good job of managing both of us without it being overly obvious and i ended up being the one who tinfoiled. I hate when that happens.

And thanks for

What's the timing on a turbo?

If you can't re-read the thread, 'cause time doesn't allow it, then Seer's would be more necessary for balance.


@ong: You kinda luckboxed to have won both mini-games and you weren't the only one who asked for you to be a wolf.

While it gives you some edge on knowing that there was a slightly higher than average chance that gabe was a Seer, this was by no means a certainty. Your primal focus on gabe could have easily bought an actual PR the night they needed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

FU Ong and your FPS wolf play. That's what I have to say.

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Man.

Read the wolf den before you call it FPS.

I think he got in your head like a villain.

Normally, I don't read a lot into the NK's. It gets me too much into WIFOM. I didn't think the NK was bad since I said gator was at the top of my POE at the end of D3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

What's the timing on a turbo?

If you can't re-read the thread, 'cause time doesn't allow it, then Seer's would be more necessary for balance.


@ong: You kinda luckboxed to have won both mini-games and you weren't the only one who asked for you to be a wolf.

While it gives you some edge on knowing that there was a slightly higher than average chance that gabe was a Seer, this was by no means a certainty. Your primal focus on gabe could have easily bought an actual PR the night they needed.

---

Timing could add to the balance, but lots of players track the peeks so that know who peeked who and can find out which ones are wrong based on a wolf flip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

Normally, I don't read a lot into the NK's.

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I'll bear that in mind in future.

mojo - I don't luckbox, I won the pre game by sheer will.

Dead thread was a good read. Nice to see everyone had me nailed.

And yeah my paranoia about the strike flip was stupid. Sorry about that mojo.

TVTBAV made me laugh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

Timing could add to the balance, but lots of players track the peeks so that know who peeked who and can find out which ones are wrong based on a wolf flip.

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I think the ability to sleep (irl) and come back at the thread for multiple re-reads of any given portion before you have to make your choice at EOD gives the village a lot of power.

If we took that power away, then I think Seers would become ubiquitous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

FU Ong and your FPS wolf play. That's what I have to say.

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Haha cheers gator.

I nommed hoopy because if you're the wolf, you surely have to nom him. I think you can read hoopy a lot better than rascal. You should read the den, most of my thoughts as I consider the nom were based on what I think you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

TVTBAV made me laugh

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So true, though.

The other part of that comment applies, too.

You relish a wolf win more than a village win, and it shows in your play.

Give us that drive as a villager and you'd personally be raising the FTR bar that Gator has pointed out to us is a bit higher than we all can reach.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Dead thread was a good read. Nice to see everyone had me nailed.

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Best dead thread in a while, IMO.

I think BID's aroo was golden. I love JKDS's response to that bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

And yeah my paranoia about the strike flip was stupid. Sorry about that mojo.

---

I didn't lose any sleep over it.

It's all good.

***
@gabe: the 2 who requested rilla as V were rilla and SMF. That's why they weren't "on your side." One was rilla, the other was AFK.

drew certainly spiced his lynch up. From a wolf pov, it's a nightmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Give us that drive as a villager and you'd personally be raising the FTR bar that Gator has pointed out to us is a bit higher than we all can reach.

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I relish winning as villager too. Probably not as much, you're right. I guess I feel this game is all about the wolfing, and the villagering is all about trying to find the most pro-village game that can be replicated as wolf.

It's easier to accept losing to a good wolf team than it is to lose as a wolf, too. I hate losing as wolf. As villager I can just blame drew.

Also, editing typos is a luxury that I like to abuse at post game.

the biggest argument against the minigames is that it affects the dialogue too much. i spent too much time analyzing who voted for what in the minigame and less on pure "werewolf" playing


maybe the minigames could be voluntarily? maybe if they were voluntary we could be allowed to discuss it more in the game thread

mojo is right to nerf the conversation regarding the pre game. Otherwise d1 could quickly descend into an analysis of everyone's picks, with lying wolves quickly exposed.

Ultimately, I think the discussion in the game thread is OK, so long as you don't talk numbers.

The wolves figured out how to tell each other what their picks were in short order w/o breaking the rules.

So the rule was useless in that regard.

You could have said, "I asked Santa to make ong a wolf for Christmas, I wonder if I got my wish." as clearly stating, "I picked ong to be a wolf in the mini-game."

So the "no talking" rule was a bit stupid.

Still can't have people saying their numbers, though.

I felt like we were on dodgy ground at times in the convo, especially my post about christmas presents, but I kinda enjoyed that aspect too.

lol great crosspost

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

mojo is right to nerf the conversation regarding the pre game. Otherwise d1 could quickly descend into an analysis of everyone's picks, with lying wolves quickly exposed.

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See above.

You and boog basically shot that dream dead on D1, too, when you clearly communicated your picks to each other without breaking any rules.

we dont want people talking in code. its not fair really

do you guys see that making the minigame voluntary would make it not as big of a deal in game?

the wolves (or anyone really) couldnt piece everything together if they knew some people were lying about their own minigame particiupation. wolves and villagers could both lie for obfuscation reasons


i'm gonna think about it some more

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

we dont want people talking in code. its not fair really

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:/

Agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

do you guys see that making the minigame voluntary would make it not as big of a deal in game?

the wolves (or anyone really) couldnt piece everything together if they knew some people were lying about their own minigame particiupation. wolves and villagers could both lie for obfuscation reasons

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I don't see any reason this would be a problem.

I think it's easy actually because I'd just refuse to discuss my picks as both villager and wolf even if it was allowed.

It's not hard to imply stuff though, and it's kinda fun.

Maybe I liked it more because I was wolfing and it helped me to build cases on people based on utter shite.

im not saying it might be a problem. im saying it might be the solution to people sharing numbers and whatever in the thread

maybe instead of voluntarily you only send the game to X number of players

the key is adding some mystery to it so that way everyone revealing their numbers becomes kinda irrelevant

The problem we have now is that next time I'm a villager working hard, I'll get lynched on the basis of TVTBAV.

So gabe just nerfed me as villager by giving me that label. Well done.

I laughed in the dead thread at drew's wolf tell for final day... "I'll read thru later blah blah"...

All three of us did that.

Anyway, I feel obliged to pretend this is a team effort and give boog a big pat on the back for allowing me to carry him to victory. Well done boog for randing wolf with me.

Just kidding, it's was a pelasure as always.

Just read the wolf den and was very impressed with Ong there. You were always thinking two to three steps ahead and that is a critical thought process for a wolf. Well done!!!

I don't think my ego can take much more, I'm going to bed.

Cheers!

YOU'RE JUST LUCKY US DEADEES WERE ALL DEAD.

Alright, we gotta decide where to place this game. I think it's only fair that we decide by majority vote.

Cool. I vote that this game doesn't count. It was clearly a practice game, where we were testing out new set up mechanics. It wouldn't be fair to treat it the same as all the other games that are all clearly beyond reproach.

Agreed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

YOU'RE JUST LUCKY US DEADEES WERE ALL DEAD.

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Oh hi.

Lucky that I said in the fucking den that I think we have two seers... you and gabe.

I mean holy fuck.

Bink.

Boog had you as seer actually.

boog is so good he knows jkds is seer even when jkds doesn't know it himself.

Quote:

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I think we have two seers, gabe and JKDS.

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post fucking twenty in the den

#soulread

In all honesty, it's funny as hell that JKDS accidentally drops a special tell when he thinks he's not special but actually is.

What are the chances of that?

I vote this goes in 2016 so I can still brag about a perfect 2015.

Just read the dead thread and now know how to read Ong better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

I vote this goes in 2016 so I can still brag about a perfect 2015.

Just read the dead thread and now know how to read Ong better.

---

You need to stop living in the past.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

In all honesty, it's funny as hell that JKDS accidentally drops a special tell when he thinks he's not special but actually is.

What are the chances of that?

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I don't think I dropped anything. It was just me talking about the mini games, and how I picked boog to be a wolf.

You guys got caught thinking I was a special though, because I decided to go after my mini game pick. I beeline for boog, makes sense you'd think I was seer.. but I don't see how the village ever thinks that.

Gotta admit, it's funny as shit though

only ong and boog can go perfect in 2016

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/sla...ediumlarge.jpg



bring on 2017 already

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

only ong and boog can go perfect in 2016

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/sla...ediumlarge.jpg



bring on 2017 already

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You can still be perfect. You could be 0 for X.

this game there were ZERO seer tells. the whole minigame dynamic makes it impossible to leave a seer clue. remember how people started talking in code...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

You can still be perfect. You could be 0 for X.

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i hope no one tries for this, but it has me wondering.. could you achieve 0 for X if u tried? going perfect might be hard once people catch on... in which case maybe the village could make perfect reads on someone still going 0 for X after 4 or 5 games

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

i hope no one tries for this, but it has me wondering.. could you achieve 0 for X if u tried? going perfect might be hard once people catch on... in which case maybe the village could make perfect reads on someone still going 0 for X after 4 or 5 games

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LOL. That would be funny if someone actually tried this.

In B4 someone claims this after going 0 for 4.

Haha. What is there to lose at that point?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

Just read the dead thread and now know how to read Ong better.

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You need to stop living in the past.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/HPvfnOuz1tOgg/giphy.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GatorJH

Just read the wolf den and was very impressed with Ong there. You were always thinking two to three steps ahead and that is a critical thought process for a wolf. Well done!!!

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I knew you'd like it.
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

maybe instead of voluntarily you only send the game to X number of players

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I think this has merit.

Maybe 1 or 2 are excluded from each game?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

this game there were ZERO seer tells. the whole minigame dynamic makes it impossible to leave a seer clue. remember how people started talking in code...

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I see your point.

I don't think it's a good reason to change anything, though.

I mean, if people would drop fake peeks more often, then the Seer can just drop his peeks in with the fake ones, which are distinct from talking about the mini-games.

They could just drop firm reads on their peeks and soft reads on everyone else. If they need to claim they can point to that, and if not, then their team will pick up on it.

There are plenty of work-arounds for this, none of them really imposing on the game, IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gabe

i hope no one tries for this, but it has me wondering.. could you achieve 0 for X if u tried? going perfect might be hard once people catch on... in which case maybe the village could make perfect reads on someone still going 0 for X after 4 or 5 games

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It seems inevitable that someone would try, but it's kinda against the code of playing to your team's win condition.

I never liked fake peeks in small games. When the pool is small, it's far easier to eliminate the fakes and illuminate the real seer. In a small game, it's less likely the seer needs deep cover too.

I'm just about ready to attempt a 0 for X. I might stand the best chance at it!

GG everyone. Was a lot of fun.

Next!

Hey Ong. Thanks for winning this for us. Continue my luckboxing of being teamed up with a good wolf.

But seriously, can I be a villager again?

gg guys, thanks for the mod MMM, but I was not a fan of the game design and I think the modding could have been better.

I don't want to go too far into it, but you should have been more clear with the rules, especially what was a modkillable offense and I think that first flip shows just how loose you were with your clarifications - it was so ambiguous it wasn't even clear that a villager had died, and when asked for clarification, you said you wouldn't.

There was nothing to talk about and no reason to post on Day 1 except for a good day 1 being enormously important for a village to be successful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lilrascal

I was always voting for Ong until gator made his reads, which I still say weren't from a villager perspective. I think I was in f3 with 2 wolves. :rolleyes:

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Gatorrrrrr!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Ultimately, I think the discussion in the game thread is OK, so long as you don't talk numbers.

The wolves figured out how to tell each other what their picks were in short order w/o breaking the rules.

So the rule was useless in that regard.

---

So, I voted for boog vig lowest - a couple notches above lowest and I voted rilla villager lowest - next to lowest, would have been fine? No numbers.

I even asked a question like this in the game thread that I think you skipped over. You should have said, "you can talk about what you voted for just not how you voted."

gg Ong, you played really well. Pretty impressed.

Fun game to play, nice modding MMM. Must have been tricky to balance the setup.

Ong I never had you as a wolf until I got in the dead thread, I was convinced it was Gator!

Hah can't believe I came first in the minigames.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

gg guys, thanks for the mod MMM, but I was not a fan of the game design and I think the modding could have been better.

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Sorry to hear.

I was mostly happy with the results (we got to LYLO and had an interesting final day), but I definitely made mistakes and have regrets. This was largely an experimental run of a format we've never tried before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I don't want to go too far into it, but you should have been more clear with the rules, especially what was a modkillable offense and I think that first flip shows just how loose you were with your clarifications - it was so ambiguous it wasn't even clear that a villager had died, and when asked for clarification, you said you wouldn't.

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I agree. I was worried that you'd all tell your requests and numbers and the game would be broken.

re. JKDS's flip:
It was the first flip in the game, and it was of a hidden role. I wasn't prepared for that. I thought I had handled it cleverly, but then I reflected on that and saw that I had fumbled.
Please note that I DID clarify and that I did so in a timely manner (before the thread was opened for D2).

I just didn't have everything worked out as far as the particulars go. As I alluded to earlier, there was very little time to actually create a balanced game. The mini-mages started a little late. They took up time and I got the sense that players were impatient to play WW and not mini-games. I was expecting ~13 players, so my notions of what possible games could play out were bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

There was nothing to talk about and no reason to post on Day 1 except for a good day 1 being enormously important for a village to be successful.

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How this is different from other games?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

So, I voted for boog vig lowest - a couple notches above lowest and I voted rilla villager lowest - next to lowest, would have been fine? No numbers.

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I'm pretty sure that this can't be allowed. You are clearly talking numbers.

If you all share your numbers, then the roles and alignments can be figured out w/o any WW game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

I even asked a question like this in the game thread that I think you skipped over. You should have said, "you can talk about what you voted for just not how you voted."

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Yeah. I overestimated the damage to the integrity of the game.

The reason I didn't explicitly state as much in this game is:
I tried to hint at it a couple of times... feelings -> talkings gif.
I felt that the wolves figuring out how to do it w/o breaking the rules was evidence that the village could do so as well.
I felt that since the wolves figured it out w/o my help, that it wouldn't be fair to blatantly tell the village.

I'm not feeling too guilty over this decision. You'll need to try again to convince me this was a problem.

Re: how is it different from other day 1s?

In other games the village can at least recognize the situation they're in, discuss it, and theory craft ways forward. Here, there was a murky standing order not to discuss the game design too deeply.

Re: the wolves figured out how to communicate the info.

They know they can trust each other. Remember the core of the game is the uninformed majority versus the informed minority. You can't take the wolves as an indicator of what the village should be able to do because they're in fundamentally different spots.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hoopy

Ong I never had you as a wolf until I got in the dead thread, I was convinced it was Gator!

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I'm not sure I'd have been in great shape in a hoopy-gator-ong finale. Based on the reads going into night, it seemed the best final three, but I also know that neither you nor gator are going to vote quickly, I was more concerned that gator would read you villager on final day too strong and be in a position to tear me apart. I didn't think I'd beat you and gator. With gator and rascal, well knowing how much gator respects rascal was a big factor, really. I didn't think gator would go for rascal, but I thought there would be enough doubt that he wouldn't know I was the wolf.

I agree with gator that the last nom was what won it. I think you and gator figure it out between you both.

That implies I don't think gator respects hoopy. That's not what I mean. Of course gator respects hoopy! What I intend to imply is that I think gator can read hoopy better than rascal, and gator respects rascal enough to be paranoid about him even when he appears a lock villager.