QQ line check

BB is 22/15 with 9% 3bet, 11.5% from the BB (52 opportunities, 540 total hands)

I flat pre to keep the air and JJ/TT/AQ/KQs in his range.

I bet the turn smallish to extract some value from the jacks he didn't barrel, maybe TT, and some oddly played turned flushdraws. The turn c/r seems really spazzy, it's small and I don't feel like I can fold - I've seen him do some spazzy stuff before (I have a note of him limpcalling and donking).

The river seems like a pretty bad card, but with this price he only has to have worse 17% of the time. Is it still a fold though?

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $9.51 (95.1 bb)
SB: $3.03 (30.3 bb)
BB: $10 (100 bb)
UTG: $10.42 (104.2 bb)
MP: $27.16 (271.6 bb)
Hero (CO): $16.10 (161 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q:heart: Q:diamond:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, BB raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.65) 8:club: J:diamond: 5:spade: (2 players)
BB bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.05) 9:diamond: (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB raises to $4.50, Hero calls $2.50

River: ($13.05) A:spade: (2 players)
BB bets $3.50 and is all-in, Hero calls $3.50

After villains c/r there isn't enough money behind, so I'd just shove or fold turn, leaning towards shove.

Yeah I think I just shove over his c/r and be done with it. I'd consider folding but I doubt that's what I do.

why not 4bet/call pre? he will flat the range you wanna keep/shove sometimes.

personally i would 4b and call off a shove preflop. as played i'd probably jam because i am clueless as to what is the best play here, and when i get really confused i tend to shovel money into the pot.

Why are we 4betting against someone who's 3betting something like AJ+, 88+, all suited broadways, KQo etc. (assuming his range is merged). All we're doing is folding out most of the range we want to play against, and isolating ourselves with the top of his range? I mean, I'm assuming that as a default, if we know someone is continuing with TT/AJ then sure, but I don't think that's a reasonable assumption without a read.

I'd rather 4bet something with blockers that I don't mind being shoved on with - AXs, that sort of thing - if he flats, we have ways to make something nutted, if he shoves it's an easy fold. 4betting QQ here I think just wastes the value of a hand that we don't really want to call a shove with absent reads, and which, if he flats a 4bet, we rarely improve and more importantly don't flop any additional equity to continue aggression.

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Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Why are we 4betting against someone who's 3betting something like AJ+, 88+, all suited broadways, KQo etc. (assuming his range is merged). All we're doing is folding out most of the range we want to play against, and isolating ourselves with the top of his range? I mean, I'm assuming that as a default, if we know someone is continuing with TT/AJ then sure, but I don't think that's a reasonable assumption without a read.

I'd rather 4bet something with blockers that I don't mind being shoved on with - AXs, that sort of thing - if he flats, we have ways to make something nutted, if he shoves it's an easy fold. 4betting QQ here I think just wastes the value of a hand that we don't really want to call a shove with absent reads, and which, if he flats a 4bet, we rarely improve and more importantly don't flop any additional equity to continue aggression.

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Sup guys. Been workin major overtime last three months. But Pennsylvania winters are always good for two tHings. Unemployment compensation, and poker. . Ha! ! Anyway getting ready to gRind it up.

Boris. I agree here with flat vs. This guy. 500 + hands . Is villain doing anything post worth noting ?? Or not doing?

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Originally Posted by BorisTheSpider

Why are we 4betting against someone who's 3betting something like AJ+, 88+, all suited broadways, KQo etc. (assuming his range is merged). All we're doing is folding out most of the range we want to play against, and isolating ourselves with the top of his range? I mean, I'm assuming that as a default, if we know someone is continuing with TT/AJ then sure, but I don't think that's a reasonable assumption without a read.

I'd rather 4bet something with blockers that I don't mind being shoved on with - AXs, that sort of thing - if he flats, we have ways to make something nutted, if he shoves it's an easy fold. 4betting QQ here I think just wastes the value of a hand that we don't really want to call a shove with absent reads, and which, if he flats a 4bet, we rarely improve and more importantly don't flop any additional equity to continue aggression.

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i'd 4b/call because i don't mind getting it in pre w/QQ 100bb deep at 6m in LPvsBlind situations against a regular who seems to employ at least some semblance of an exploitative 3b/4b/5b game. plus i wanna 4b bluff this guy a good amount in these spots which i cant really do if i'm only willing to felt KK+,AK. because as soon as he starts to adjust i'm going to getting owned by his 5b's.

the above is merely the rationale behind me wanting to 4b/call, and is by no means me claiming to be right about that position

edit: why are you sure he is 3betting de-polarised? do you have notes regarding this? i'd tend to assume if someone has an 11% 3b from the big blind that they are 3betting "light" to exploit weak LP opening ranges. which i found to be a polarised range more often than not - that could definitely have changed though

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Originally Posted by rpm

i'd 4b/call because i don't mind getting it in pre w/QQ 100bb deep at 6m in LPvsBlind situations against a regular who seems to employ at least some semblance of an exploitative 3b/4b/5b game. plus i wanna 4b bluff this guy a good amount in these spots which i cant really do if i'm only willing to felt KK+,AK. because as soon as he starts to adjust i'm going to getting owned by his 5b's.

the above is merely the rationale behind me wanting to 4b/call, and is by no means me claiming to be right about that position

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What you've said is completely sound theoretically, but in practise, especially since I've been 4betting and shoving more balanced ranges myself, I've noticed the extent to which most regs at these stakes who are playing an exploitative 3b game, are very unbalanced and don't stack off light enough given their wide 3bet ranges.

I do see what you mean about a positional dynamic, and I'd 4bet it and get it in on the button, but the cutoff is very different in my experience - I think at these stakes, people perceive the positional dynamic when it's BTNvBlind, but are much more "standard" when it's a cutoff open.

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edit: why are you sure he is 3betting de-polarised? do you have notes regarding this? i'd tend to assume if someone has an 11% 3b from the big blind that they are 3betting "light" to exploit weak LP opening ranges. which i found to be a polarised range more often than not - that could definitely have changed though

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I'm not sure whether he's polarised or not, I was just observing how wide 9% is. It doesn't really matter whether he's polarised or not, if he's not and he folds the bottom 2/3 of his range to a 4bet and shoves the rest we might occasionally get it in with JJ/AQs, if he is polarised it's worse - we're getting it in with a stronger range, and just folding out hands we crush by 4betting.

Just to put in context how wide he'd have to be shoving for us to get it in profitably, if he's shoving {JJ+, AKs, AKo} we have 47% equity. If we 4bet to $1.80 and he shoves we have $8.20 to call in an $11.90 pot needing 41% equity, so against {QQ+, AKs, AKo} we're slightly -EV with a lot of unnecessary variance and against {JJ+, AKs, AKo} our 4bet has an EV of 5.6bb. I think there's much more than that to be had by flatting a 3bet. I also think, without a read, assuming he'll get it all in preflop with JJ is optimistic. Honestly, how often do you see it go all in preflop at these stakes and someone (not a maniac) turns over JJ?

Going back again to the fact that we're slightly worse than a flip vs {JJ+, AKs, AKo} that's once we've already narrowed his range by 4betting. Why not play with {88+, AJo+, KQo, JTs, QTs+, KTs+, ATs+} (65%) or alternatively {QQ+, AKs, AKo, A2s-A9s, K2s-K9s, ATo, KTo} (61%) instead?

Even if he's shoving {JJ+, AKs, AKo} that's 3% of hands, so if his 3bet in this spot is really 11.5% (small sample, but it seems reasonable with an overall 3bet of 9% over a decent sample) he's folding 74% of his 3bet range to a 4bet, whilst laying us $1.10 to $1.60 on a 4bet bluff, a spot where we need him to fold 59% to profit 4betting any two cards. That's what I mean about these micro regs being exploitable to 4bets. I'd rather 4bet bluff him liberally and flat his 3bets here with QQ to let him value town himself with his JJ/AJ/TT.

Boris - based on the other AK hand you have posted right now and this hand, and your hesitance to 4b/call off QQ, I'm wondering what your 4b/call off range is on avg?

I mean the guy has an 11% 3b on BB, we shouldn't have a problem 4b/calling off QQ here and if we do it's indicative of problems with other parts of our range.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind flatting here once in a while, but I'd rather flat something stronger like AA/KK to trap. What's your plan with QQ on Axx facing two barrels? or Kxx facing two barrels? I think the times we can bluff catch him is certainly offset somewhat by the times we make a mistake post with QQ (a somewhat vulnerable hand).

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Boris - based on the other AK hand you have posted right now and this hand, and your hesitance to 4b/call off QQ, I'm wondering what your 4b/call off range is on avg?

I mean the guy has an 11% 3b on BB, we shouldn't have a problem 4b/calling off QQ here and if we do it's indicative of problems with other parts of our range.

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Well, as an average I would 4bet-call QQ here, but that's based on someone stacking off with an appropriate range, which I don't think people do. Unless there's history, or a specific read, I think assuming he'll shove jacks here is unreasonable at these stakes - people just aren't aggro enough once a 4bet has gone in.

I mean, it's probably marginal - I expect an average shoving range for him to be about {QQ+, AKs, AKo} which we are slightly -EV against but only very slightly.

I see what you mean about flatting AA here instead - I do that sometimes.

When you say:

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I mean the guy has an 11% 3b on BB, we shouldn't have a problem 4b/calling off QQ here and if we do it's indicative of problems with other parts of our range.

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Can you explain what you mean by it being indicative of problems with other parts of our range.

Maybe problems isn't the right word, but we can't profitably 4b/call off QQ here because villain isn't shoving worse. If villain isn't shoving worse it's because villain doesn't have the motivation to shove worse. So why doesn't have have the motivation to 3b/5b AQ/JJ/TT?

1) You 4b call off tight (QQ+), so he's not doing well vs your stack off range.
2) You rarely 4b/fold. So once you 4b, there isn't a high likelihood that a light 5b jam will take it down without a flop.

So conceivably if you started to 4b/call off worse (JJ/TT) or started 4b/folding more, he would/should start 5b jamming lighter and you should start 4b/calling this off.

Anyhow, to be clear, I really don't mind flatting QQ here. I just think 4b/calling QQ should still be a profitable situation overall.

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Originally Posted by griffey24

1) You 4b call off tight (QQ+), so he's not doing well vs your stack off range.
2) You rarely 4b/fold. So once you 4b, there isn't a high likelihood that a light 5b jam will take it down without a flop.

So conceivably if you started to 4b/call off worse (JJ/TT) or started 4b/folding more, he would/should start 5b jamming lighter and you should start 4b/calling this off.

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Yeah, this makes sense. I think, because of the big player pool at these stakes, even regs rarely have enough hands on me to make adjustments based on stuff that is uncommon - even if someone has 2000 hands on me, they've probably only seen me 4bet ~50 times, so if 75% of those times I wasn't 5-bet, they won't have much of a sample at all on my 4-bet/fold vs 4-bet/call frequencies.

QQ+,AK seems like an awfully tight 5b range (referring to villain obv) for these kind of situations but i haven't grinded for a while so your assumptions would certainly be more accurate than mine. i guess it depends a lot on hero's game and how it's perceived as well. i'd certainly be 4bing a reasonable amount here, and villain having 500+ hands on me would be aware of that. so i would be reaaaaally exploitable (and, in typical rpm-style, paranoid about being exploited ) if i could only felt 28 hand combinations here. i honestly wouldn't mind 6 combinations in my range having a very slight negative expectation (and i'm still having trouble believing this guy is as straightforward as your impressions of him suggest - it would only take a very slight spazz factor or occasional 5b "bluff" range * to swing QQ into the green) because i think it benefits my overall strategy.

* edit: or a few combos of JJ sneaking into his 3b/jam range cuz he's "sick of your shit"