2 hands v.s Villian

70 hands v.s villian, he 3bet 12% of these hands PF & 4bet 16% PF. flatted 44% PF. Unfortunatley, this is only the 13th hand of this session. So I don't have any of this info yet. was hoping he would check-back turn, when he doesn't i'm out here. 2nd hand is after my read on villian. Is my flop shove too much here. By now I know I'm getting some respect from this guy. Just not sure how to get him to fold without putting his whole stack on the line. he flats A5s earlier so i feel like I'm ahead here for themost part. I just hate my play here. I surely need some help on my post flop play. thanks guys

Revolution Gaming Network - $0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $4.53
CO: $3.70
BTN: $4.28
Hero (BB): $5.93
BB: $11.94

Hero posts BB $0.04

Pre Flop: ($0.04) Hero has J:club: J:diamond:

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.16, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.32, 2 players) T:club: Q:diamond: 7:heart:
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.28, Hero calls $0.28

Turn: ($0.88, 2 players) 5:diamond:
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.59, fold

BTN wins $0.83

Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (5 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($4.10)
SB ($5.50)
BB ($3.17)
Hero (UTG) ($5.19)
MP ($12.11)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
Hero bets $0.12, 2 folds, SB raises to $0.31, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.19

Flop: ($0.66) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
SB bets $0.44, Hero raises to $4.88 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $1.54 | Rake: $0.10

Hand 1 is fine, readless you can't do anything else here, and even if you suspect he's a maniac based on the very few hands you've seen so far, you're not going to find out without risking your stack, so I think the fold is fine.

Hand 2 is poorly played. Either you are confident in your read he's a maniac and you call him down, or you aren't and you fold. It might work as a thin bluff - he might fold an 8 - if he's a maniac he probably doesn't fold a PP 99+, and he doesn't fold any ace. If he's the kind to get into pissing contests and doesn't want to be seen to fold, you could have just 4bet him pre and hope he shoves, but still, even then 77 is hardly the best hand to be doing it with.

yeah, I hear ya, and he could have very well showed up w/ a weak ace here, I'm definitely removing these poor post flop plays from my game.

This guy was pretty much a maniac. One thing I did see is that as LAGdum as he is . He is folding to flop c-bet almost 70%

H1 3bet pre. as played c/f flop to that pot bet
H2 c/f flop

H1 3bet pre for value and balance. You wanna have fold equity when you 3bet bluff? Make sure villain knows you 3bet big pairs too. As played I call turn.

H2 call 3bet pre, c/f flop. This jam is awful. You say he's a maniac, do you expect him to fold an ace? I doubt it very much.

Calling pre seems fine imo - at the time of the hand we have no info on villain so can't really make any assumptions as to their 3b calling range. What hands are we expecting an unknown to call with? If villain 4bets are we happy stacking off? Nope.

And OngBonga how can we 3b a hand for value AND balance at the same time?! If we're 3b'ing JJ for value, then we can't be 3b'ing JJ to balance our range as well as its not a bluff - its a value bet.

imho

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sil693

And OngBonga how can we 3b a hand for value AND balance at the same time?!

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Because I'm usually bluffing when I 3bet a BU open on the BB. If I flat JJ then my pf 3betting range BB vs BU becomes more imbalanced towards bluffs.

Hand 1: I prefer to 3bet pre with JJ out of position. As played, c/f flop without reads given the bet sizing and take a note. The question you need to ask yourself when calling a pot bet on the flop is what are you going to do on the turn facing a likely double barrel. C/calling pot on this flop and then c/f two-thirds pot on the turn tells villain you can be bullied off medium strength hands, not to mention wasting money.

Hand 2: Pre seems fine but c/f flop. Jamming is terrible against this player.

Most important thing is to keep a look out for this villain. It's clear that he keeps barrelling with the betting lead without slowing down and two-thirds pot seems to be his standard bet - look out for any changes to his bet size and let this guy hang himself. You can own this guy and separate him from his bankroll in no time.

Really not understanding the love for preflop 3b ITT

Because at 4NL's you will get called by tons of smaller pairs, AQ, AJ and even shoved on by some of these hands a lot of the time. They suck, get it in while ahead

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Originally Posted by jyms

Because at 4NL's you will get called by tons of smaller pairs, AQ, AJ and even shoved on by some of these hands a lot of the time. They suck, get it in while ahead

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Perhaps I'm being too nitty vs unknowns - giving them too much credit in this sort of spot. Obviously I'm happy 3b'ing JJ vs those who are going to call 3bets light - I tend to just wait until I'm sure that they'll do so rather than assuming. Food for thought.

You need to do your homework on hand #2.

What's his range pre-flop?
If he c-bets 100% of the time, but only calls with Ax, 86, set or a spade draw are you making a profit by shoving sevens?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fnord

You need to do your homework on hand #2.

What's his range pre-flop?
If he c-bets 100% of the time, but only calls with Ax, 86, set or a spade draw are you making a profit by shoving sevens?

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I'm gonna get back to ya on this, but off the top of my head, no I don't think flop shove is profitable at all here. his 3bet range could def have weak ace or small pairs..

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Originally Posted by sil693

Really not understanding the love for preflop 3b ITT

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Your blind must be a joy to play against on the button.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Your blind must be a joy to play against on the button.

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Because without some indication (other than steaks) that villain is calling 3bets light I look to keep their range as wide and therefore as weak as possible?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sil693

Because without some indication (other than steaks) that villain is calling 3bets light I look to keep their range as wide and therefore as weak as possible?

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do you 3bet QQ+ , AK in this hand? if yes, why not JJ too? if no, why not?

hand one 3bet it pre for value and go from there. obviously c-betting this particular flop

hand two is pretty spewy. you are risking wayyyyy too much to get him to fold given you have like 15% pot equity at most when he calls.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

do you 3bet QQ+ , AK in this hand? if yes, why not JJ too? if no, why not?

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I'd 3bet QQ+, AK as standard because I'm quite happy getting it in pre - I wouldn't always 3bet JJ pre here because I'm less comfortable getting it in preflop, and dont want to 3b/fold.

fwiw I'm not arguing that I'm right here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sil693

I'd 3bet QQ+, AK as standard because I'm quite happy getting it in pre - I wouldn't always 3bet JJ pre here because I'm less comfortable getting it in preflop, and dont want to 3b/fold.

fwiw I'm not arguing that I'm right here.

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v what range are you happy to go AI pre w/ QQ+, AK but not JJ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

v what range are you happy to go AI pre w/ QQ+, AK but not JJ?

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I understand the point you're making - but surely there has to be a cut off? If you're happy stacking off with JJ vs unknowns then what about 1010? 99? AQ?

Again, just outlining my thoughts - and fwiw I perceive 3b pots to be one of my biggest weaknesses.

Are you auto 3b/calling w JJ here everytime vs unknowns? I suppose its really not that likely that we'll 4bet so we can just 3b/fold?

i am not even happy w/ QQ going AI pre v villain w/ no read, but i am a dumb nit.

but that doeznt mean my blind 3bet range iz QQ+, AK, iz much wider then that and profitable like mozt people here.

yep, we can 3bet/fold if we have no info that v villain 4bet range we can profitable call or 5bet.
w/ JJ/TT + other blind 3bet range, money we make when he open/fold+ money we make when he open/call >>> money we loze when he open/4bet

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sil693

Because without some indication (other than steaks) that villain is calling 3bets light I look to keep their range as wide and therefore as weak as possible?

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I'm sure calling JJ here is going to show a long term profit. Question is can we make more from it in this spot by 3betting? If we're 3betting with A4s, K7s etc, then 3betting JJ is a no brainer. If we're not, well we should be unless BU is a nit.

His range is wide. He knows this, so when he sees a 3bet, he should know our 3bet range is wider than if we 3bet a different spot. Plus he has the button. So his calling range and 4betting range here is going to be at its widest. We have a great hand here, we're definitely ahead of his calling range, and probably good enough against his 4bet range to see a flop or get it in.

I'm not saying JJ should be an auto 3bet. I'm saying it should be default play on the BB against a BU steal, unless there's a good reason to not 3bet. I don't see a reason to not do it here.

There is a small chance I have learnt a lot from this thread. Admittedly a greater chance that I'm misapplying a fundamental topic - only time / more reading will tell.

But there is definitely a small chance.

c/c flop
c/c turn. many arguments can be made for leading the turn


lolwat hand 2

i swear to god everyone on this forum must be playing a different game.

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Bikes, you 3bet or flat pre with the JJ?

depends.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Because I'm usually bluffing when I 3bet a BU open on the BB. If I flat JJ then my pf 3betting range BB vs BU becomes more imbalanced towards bluffs.

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Your assumption here is that this is a bad thing. This is a hand against an unknown, wtf does balance have to do with it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

His range is wide. He knows this, so when he sees a 3bet, he should know our 3bet range is wider than if we 3bet a different spot. Plus he has the button. So his calling range and 4betting range here is going to be at its widest. We have a great hand here, we're definitely ahead of his calling range, and probably good enough against his 4bet range to see a flop or get it in.

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13th hand at the table man, your soul read skills must be off the charts.

[edit] I'm not saying 3 betting is wrong (or right), I just think in this hand using balance as a reason for doing anything is a mistake. The focus should be on making the most +EV play for this hand.

As for hand 2, you guys must be interpreting something completely differently than I am in those stats. 70 hands (assuming we had them all by this stage, its unclear) is a dozen rounds, think about how much those stats really mean. I don't mind just folding to the 3b preflop and I would almost certainly c/f that flop.

Ok whatever, I'm 3betting this because I think it's more +ev than calling (could be wrong), and because my weird mind figures it increases the ev of my future 3bet bluffs against this guy if we showdown and he sees I have JJ. Value and balance, all in one sweet stroke. But maybe I'm just being retarded, it wouldn't be the first time.