Planned to get it in by river and 2nd guessing decision.

Villain is 33/17 over ~400, a calling station and cannot lay down tpnk; sb 3better is 52/24 & 7.7% 3bet over 40ish; I've been pretty inactive the last couple of orbits running 14/11 overall on this table.
I was thinking that my recent inactivity would improve my image for the pfr. My call of his 3bet was quite loose but due to the odds and his stats.
Since the sb checks the flop, I feel pretty comfortable betting for value. I know that the btn won't fold Qx, pocket pairs and will prolly peel one with Ax, Kx; and if either of them raise then I'm prolly beat.
When the river pairs the board I wonder if I should rethink my plan to shove.

Please tear it apart and tell me what y'all think I should have done differently and if a river shove is a good or bad idea.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

UTG ($7.80)
Hero (UTG+1) ($4.72)
MP1 ($4.03)
MP2 ($2.96)
CO ($2.26)
Button ($3.90)
SB ($4.18)
BB ($4.67)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $0.12, 3 folds, Button calls $0.12, SB raises $0.18, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.08, Button calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.64) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.36, Button calls $0.36, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.36) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1, Button calls $1

River: ($3.36) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3.16 (All-In)????

nh. maybe bet a lil more on flop to make river bet smaller...but thats a nitpick.

Pre. I would have done the same but I think its not quite right. So I throw in my thoughts.
loose villan cant let go of TPNK Now we loosen up and cant let go of TPNK. I thought we tighten up against loose ?

having said that I see me firing every street too and patting myself on the back or cursing depending on result.

This looks totally fine/standard to me based on read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celtic123

Pre. I would have done the same but I think its not quite right. So I throw in my thoughts.
loose villan cant let go of TPNK Now we loosen up and cant let go of TPNK. I thought we tighten up against loose ?

having said that I see me firing every street too and patting myself on the back or cursing depending on result.

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Since when does having the 2nd best kicker possible equate to having TPNK? This is totally fine. You have a read that he's calling with every single worse combo of top pair he has, that's a lot of combos, so value bet until your stack is in the middle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by celtic123

I thought we tighten up against loose ?

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This is way too general to be meaningful. If someone is loose in the sense that they can't fold anything then we should make two standard adjustments.

1. Tighten our bluffing ranges (don't bluff da stations)

2. Widen our value betting ranges because otherwise we're making his strategy semi decent.

Ok. Thanks for feedback carroters
sticking with pre.
fr UTG+1 KQo v these types .and calling the feeble 3bet ?
I do play like the op . Im [edit] premature incomplete post[edit]
I play hand the same.
im just non too happy with the UTG raise then calling a feeble 3bet with KQo v 2 loose players.
KQo In ep is not a hand I choose to start playing back at loose villans. Ill open it if I think im likely to get a folds .as in playing 14/11 and my raise will get respected.

I dont understand your last post cel. Anyways, i changed my mind and like the flop bet size. I was a lil results oriented when i saw the sb didnt c/r. With that threat a possibility, i think the size is good.

this river is a brick why do you care about it pairing the turn card.
I bet a little more on the flop b/f.

I used to fold this pre....... Everything else seems fine.

super standard vs this guy. nh.

I'd bet a fraction bigger (.45) but otherwise nh. Going after good value.

bet more on flop so your final bet isn't so big and thus you get it in vs a wider range. that's just picking nits though. turn+river are definitely fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by !Luck

I fold this pre

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This.

@folding pre: NITS

Folding KQ pre tilts me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

@folding pre: NITS

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QFMFT! maybe at higher stakes when opponents are less likely to call with dominated hands and more capable to punish us with position. but surely this open would be 100% standard at 4nl?

FWIW - I shoved and he called with QJo.

My thinking for the flop sizing was to try to get both of them to call with worse hands but I'm beginning to think that I missed some value by not going larger. I like the ~ 0.45 sizing because that makes the river shove less than $3, which would seem more likely to be called.

Is there a decent way to quickly determine what flop bet sizing we should make when faced with a possible c/r?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

@folding pre: NITS

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1) Moving up is the most important thing at microbonk poker.

2) Most microbonks cannot play postflop properly.

3) Opening KQ UTG at FR gets you into silly marginal positions postflop a good portion of the time

I've seen loads of people say "nits" etc to folding KQ UTG, but I've also spoken to/read/watched things from winning FR players who say KQ isn't in their UTG range...so it's up to people to decide how they want to play.

If you can't play KQ profitably postflop, move down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasyPoker

1) Moving up is the most important thing at microbonk poker.

2) Most microbonks cannot play postflop properly.

3) Opening KQ UTG at FR gets you into silly marginal positions postflop a good portion of the time

I've seen loads of people say "nits" etc to folding KQ UTG, but I've also spoken to/read/watched things from winning FR players who say KQ isn't in their UTG range...so it's up to people to decide how they want to play.

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something is either +EV or it's not. learning to play poker (which is what will dictate how much you make and whether or not you move up etc etc) is about learning to take all the +EV spots you possibly can. even if they are marginal. i'm pretty sure it could be proven by a winning player's database that it is profitable to open KQo UTG+1 at 5nl FR and lower provided you have even a slight understanding of how to value bet. granted, it may be close, depending on postflop skill level. but it's +EV which means it will add to your winrate. your poker skills will probably benefit, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasyPoker

I've seen loads of people say "nits" etc to folding KQ UTG, but I've also spoken to/read/watched things from winning FR players who say KQ isn't in their UTG range...

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were they playing 4nl 8-handed? and with 3/4 of the seats with position hero being stationy fish?

"You should fold KQ UTG" is a generalisation and takes no account of the game or the situation. It is a statement designed to keep beginners out of trouble.

In this game, with players with these stats, I'm value opening KQ UTG all day. With 20BBs 2 hours into an MTT, I'm folding it faster than a royal mail envelope licker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasyPoker

1) Moving up is the most important thing at microbonk poker.

2) Most microbonks cannot play postflop properly.

3) Opening KQ UTG at FR gets you into silly marginal positions postflop a good portion of the time

I've seen loads of people say "nits" etc to folding KQ UTG, but I've also spoken to/read/watched things from winning FR players who say KQ isn't in their UTG range...so it's up to people to decide how they want to play.

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Disagree with 1). People should be learning to play poker. Moving up is secondary to this. If you dont learn how to play poker...moving up is a waste of time, you'll just get owned.

Disagree with 2). In general, microstakes goes like this. "Raise, get called, cbet, they fold". Everyone on ftr can do this. You could open only the bottom 10% of hands utg and still show a profit at microstakes from this position just by cbetting.

Disagree with 3) AK can get u into very similar situations. Ya, with KQ you rarely flop the Topest of Pairs with the Topest of Kickers...but if you are only valuebetting TPTK at microstakes then you're doing something wrong. TT-77 can get you into many difficult positions postflop if you raise them utg+1...but its still retarded to fold them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gingerwizard

"You should fold KQ UTG" is a generalisation and takes no account of the game or the situation. It is a statement designed to keep beginners out of trouble.

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At least someone got the overall point I was making.

FWIW I open it sometimes and others I don't. Depends on the table.