88 on T flop. Line and reasoning check.

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10-01-2011, 09:48 AM
Razvan729

88 on T flop. Line and reasoning check.

BB is 30/15/100 in 27 hands, havent seen him at SD

MP2 is 16/13/67 in 255 hands w/ 75%flop cbet, 25% fold to flop cbet, 60% fold to flop bet, 6% 3bet, 40% ATS
i never know what line to take in these spots so i am gonna write why i did what i did and ask what is better.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

MP3 ($25)
CO ($15.02)
Button ($25)
SB ($25.92)
BB ($25.23)
UTG ($40)
UTG+1 ($10.75)
Hero (MP1) ($25)
MP2 ($25)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/8c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/8s.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.75, MP2 calls $0.75, 4 folds, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/4s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/2h.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1.55, MP2 calls $1.55, 1 fold

when BB checks, i decide to bet for value cause i know MP2 is gonna call with air overcards, any PP, Tx.

Q1: would it be better to c/f here?

Turn: ($5.4) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3h.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3.5, MP2 calls 3.5

turn seems a brick for me so i decided to bet again for value vs his floating air and underpairs.

Q2: is this a bad spot for 2barrel? should i just c/f?

River: ($12.9) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/tc.gif (2 players)

his turn fold to bet is 100% so i really think i am beat here so i decide to c/f.

what line would you take and is my reasoning for b flop/b turn/ c/f river is wrong?
10-01-2011, 10:16 AM
Vinland

I don't mind it
He shouldnt have too many T's in his range (maybe AT and TJ). His range on the flop is mostly PP's 22-JJ and top broadways. I think I am betting for value on the turn but maybe closer to 1/2 pot (prob $2.90). Board is dry so you are in a WA/WB situation.

I would check river but I dont know what I would do if he bet.
10-01-2011, 10:19 AM
eugmac

Quote:

his turn fold to bet is 100%

You mean river fold to bet? If you did mean turn then your reasoning for betting turn seems contradictory.

also I would be betting a hair smaller on flop since it's so dry, like 1.20 or so.
10-01-2011, 10:23 AM
eugmac

oh and if what you say is true that he's floating overcards and stuff, can we fold when after we check and give him his chance to bluff? He's likely checking behind pairs lower than ours and betting his air and Tx.
10-01-2011, 10:27 AM
Razvan729

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugmac

You mean river fold to bet? If you did mean turn then your reasoning for betting turn seems contradictory.

also I would be betting a hair smaller on flop since it's so dry, like 1.20 or so.

i ment his turn fold to bet 100%, i wrote it on river cause if he folded up to now 100% on tunr and this time he called me, it means he has Tx or JJ or a FD and i am beat, at least that's how i thought about it then
10-01-2011, 10:29 AM
Carroters

Edit, misread preflop action. Seems alright, but I'd probably check back the turn, fold to river bets and bet river myself if checked to. If he's folding so many turns, I doubt you can value bet for this sizing, use your position and play the river like a champ imo.
10-01-2011, 10:33 AM
Razvan729

i am OOP vs him, i am MP1 he is MP2
10-01-2011, 10:37 AM
eugmac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razvan729

i ment his turn fold to bet 100%, i wrote it on river cause if he folded up to now 100% on tunr and this time he called me, it means he has Tx or JJ or a FD and i am beat, at least that's how i thought about it then

Ok, so what I mean by it being contradictory is, on the one hand you're saying you're value betting against his air floats and underpairs, and at the same time you say that the only time he ever calls this bet is if he has you beat. Do you see?

Carrotters, we're OOP here so we can't be checked to.
10-01-2011, 11:03 AM
Carroters

Oh then just c/f turn and bet blank rivers 1/2 pot or w/e if it checks through.
10-01-2011, 11:11 AM
Razvan729

yes, i see what you mean, so if there's nothing worse then me calling, there's nothing to get value from. right, i just hate giving free cards, got too many rivers last week or so.

but you are right, no point in betting if nothing worse is calling
10-01-2011, 11:26 AM
Carroters

Yeah you're bet is just very -EV if his continuing range is like 66 99+ etc. Furthermore he'll likely check back when you're ahead so you rarely fold the best hand. Giving a free card here isn't a big deal when most of his range either beats you or has 2-6 outs.
10-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Razvan729

i know, my betting principle is this: to bet only if i get value from worse and/or if i fold better but i have 2 huge leaks called: patience ( that i dont have most times ) and frustration ( which i have a lot)
10-01-2011, 11:53 AM
Carroters

Haha yep, the mental game is at some point or another a big obstacle every player has to overcome.
10-01-2011, 11:54 AM
eugmac

Here's a cool thread on "reasons to bet" and apart from value-betting and bluffing, ideas like betting to protect our hand or to win dead money are discussed:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post1909426

An example is given of winning dead money, when we raise open K9o or something in the BU in order to steal blinds. It's clearly +EV but you're not often getting better hands to fold, nor are you getting value from worse hands.

And as for "protection", it might not be a bad idea vs weak-passive types who won't try to steal the pot away from you with a whiffed AQ (against such types that would try to steal we would be inclined to c/c with a bluffcatcher), and so by checking and letting a potential free river fall could mean we're giving away the pot to them when an A or Q comes, with no upsides to speak of... What I'm trying to say is, are there times when you're just happy to take down the pot, even if the likelihood of being called by worse is very low, and what would be good examples of such situations? Just some fairly undigested thoughts, I'd appreciate more advanced players to help out with the discussion.
10-01-2011, 04:35 PM
Icanhastreebet

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Yeah you're bet is just very -EV if his continuing range is like 66 99+ etc. Furthermore he'll likely check back when you're ahead so you rarely fold the best hand. Giving a free card here isn't a big deal when most of his range either beats you or has 2-6 outs.

why are we c/f turn if our read is he has a lot of air and shit on the flop?
10-01-2011, 04:47 PM
Carroters

I don't think our read is that after he calls the flop, where does that come from? I expect him to fold all air/weak shit to our flop bet.
10-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Carroters

Oh missed the part where Raz said he'd float flop with overcards. If we have that read then yeah just c/c turn I guess, but I'm not too convinced that read is accurate of this kind of player when we c bet 3 ways with a fish in the pot. Seems weird, but if that's how he plays then okay I guess.
10-02-2011, 01:06 AM
Razvan729

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

why are we c/f turn if our read is he has a lot of air and shit on the flop?

i know he floats overcards and PP, seen him at showdown vs other.

i never caught him calling me 2 streets w/ that, when we were involved in pot he ussually calls flop and folds turn on my 2nd barrel ( think we had about 3-4 pots togheter that sess) and my image isnt spewy at all, i mean i did some weird callings and shovings but that was vs fishes, he must be able to know that i dont play vs a 16/13 the same way i play vs a 50/15
10-02-2011, 12:54 PM
Carroters

Have you seen him float overcards 3 ways with a fish to act behind him or have you just seen him float overcards in a two way pot? I highly doubt one translates to the other here.
10-02-2011, 02:02 PM
Razvan729

seen him float HU on flop. right again. damn, every day i think i learned somethink i discover actually i didnt
10-02-2011, 06:41 PM
baudib

Quote:

Originally Posted by eugmac

And as for "protection", it might not be a bad idea vs weak-passive types who won't try to steal the pot away from you with a whiffed AQ (against such types that would try to steal we would be inclined to c/c with a bluffcatcher), and so by checking and letting a potential free river fall could mean we're giving away the pot to them when an A or Q comes, with no upsides to speak of... What I'm trying to say is, are there times when you're just happy to take down the pot, even if the likelihood of being called by worse is very low, and what would be good examples of such situations? Just some fairly undigested thoughts, I'd appreciate more advanced players to help out with the discussion.

Protection is largely a myth but if you think of betting to force someone to give up their equity in the hand rather than bluffing it helps you to understand spots where betting makes sense even if you don't expect to get called by worse.

You raise with 99, get called by 4 people. The flop is 822. You should bet here even though it's highly unlikely you will be called by worse.
10-03-2011, 09:33 AM
rpm

i actually dont mind betting $3 on the turn and getting him to surrender the 25% equity that a lot of his range has, safely folding to raises. i wouldn't be surprised if villain called the turn with all of {55-99,JJ} and he will probably rarely show up with Tx given preflop positions.

happily C/Fing all non-8 rivers after we bet the turn under the assumption that he rarely bluffs them. he very rarely even gets to the river with any hands he would turn into bluffs.