Anyone getting away from this?

Title says it all really. Anyone think I could have gotten away from this hand? Done anything different?

MP is 24/20 over 38 hands and has 3bet 11%
CO is 34/14 iver 38 hands and has never 3bet
Nothing on either about folds to 3bets.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($10.10)
UTG ($6.51)
MP ($18.72)
CO ($5.77)
Button ($6.33)
SB ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
1 fold, MP bets $0.30, CO calls $0.30, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.20, MP calls $0.90, CO calls $0.90

I'm thinking a good chance for a squeeze play here but both call so what can you do?
I figure I don't have enough of a sample size to really define their ranges so I put both on somewhat premium hands due their calling my 4x raise. Maybe AK-AQs and QQ-88. I figure if either has Kings or Aces they probably would have re-raised.


Flop: ($3.65) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $3.40, Hero raises to $8.90 (All-In), 1 fold, CO calls $1.17 (All-In)

Great flop. TBH I don't really see how I can't get it all in here considering my pre-flop raise and top two pair. If either has hit trips what can I do? I check in the hopes of raising and that's exactly what happens.

Thoughts?

Um... why raise flop? To get that last $1.17 from CO, and make an easy fold for the deep stack original raiser?

You check hoping for action, and ask if you can get away from the hand??? Results oriented much?

bet flop. I used to have the leak that when i hit top two in spots like this i figured no1 could have nething so i slow played, but they can have aces and kings alot, so just get ur value.

CO shows 99 i assume

If the plan is squeezing to get CO to call with a weaker range and get value from TP type hands how can we not get it in especially if hes short? as long as we think he can do this with AQ AJ maybe a annoyed QQ, JJ. MP wouldn't worry me either doubt hes checking better here at best were chopping.

As played I play it the same, probably betting 2/3-3/4 on flop tho unless we know if CO likes to donk with a weaker range.

If MP raised 2/3 here after you checked was would you do?

well your not going to fold are you? and if you call you're not going to fold the extra 1.17.

can't place him on AA/KK because he didnt bet harder preflop and they are blocked, AK split, AQ 99 possible.. AJ cos his loose agg.. I'm not going to give him credit for A9, K9 in a 3 bet pot.. If you fold to a pot bet with top 2 to a shortstack though you have no business playing because you my friend would be weakkk. You got coolered, hard luck.

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Originally Posted by Smith

Um... why raise flop? To get that last $1.17 from CO, and make an easy fold for the deep stack original raiser?

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I raised the flop for two reasons.

1: To try to get get heads up against a weaker hand with some more money in the pot.
2: Because I'm learning still and trying things. HEM leak buster says one of my leaks is not 3betting enough so I'm trying to find spots to do that more often. I'm guessing you don't think this was a good spot to do so. If you care to explain why that would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Smith

You check hoping for action, and ask if you can get away from the hand??? Results oriented much?

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Yes results oriented.

I guess I should have simply asked how I could have played the hand differently.

Thanks for your enlightening thoughts. :roll:

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Originally Posted by chatzilla

CO shows 99 i assume

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by chatzilla

If the plan is squeezing to get CO to call with a weaker range and get value from TP type hands how can we not get it in especially if hes short? as long as we think he can do this with AQ AJ maybe a annoyed QQ, JJ. MP wouldn't worry me either doubt hes checking better here at best were chopping.

As played I play it the same, probably betting 2/3-3/4 on flop tho unless we know if CO likes to donk with a weaker range.

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In future I will definitely bet the flop in these kinds of situations.

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Originally Posted by chatzilla

If MP raised 2/3 here after you checked was would you do?

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Honestly, as played I'm certain all my money was going in no matter what.

Had I bet the flop and gotten raised and then re-raised I may have gotten away from it but in all honesty probably not as I can admit I'm still a learner and not the best player.

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Originally Posted by scott_owen

well your not going to fold are you? and if you call you're not going to fold the extra 1.17.

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Not for the extra 1.17, no.

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Originally Posted by scott

can't place him on AA/KK because he didnt bet harder preflop and they are blocked, AK split, AQ 99 possible.. AJ cos his loose agg.. I'm not going to give him credit for A9, K9 in a 3 bet pot..

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That's pretty much what I thought so I'm glad my reasoning wasn't completely shite.

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Originally Posted by scott

If you fold to a pot bet with top 2 to a shortstack though you have no business playing because you my friend would be weakkk.

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Very well put! :D

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Originally Posted by scott

You got coolered, hard luck.

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Yeah. :(

Also, bet the flop. Before he bets his range is much wider and you beat most of it. Let him make the bad call. If he'd been holding 22-88 TT-QQ your probably not getting a call and the last thing you want is him catching a set on the turn and beating you.. and when he raises the flop with 99 you call with 4 outs to a boat which probably isnt that far off +ev here.. concidering a range that is still aq+ 99.

Edit.
You need ~10% to call 1.17 if you had bet 3.4 on flop. You have about 15 against 99 alone

preflop is good. your opponents at these stakes are most likely calling with dominated hands such as AQ and maybe AJ. so we can certainly 3-bet for value.

on the flop i probably bet something like $2.4 and i'm not folding to a raise of any size from either player. there are only 2 possible combos of AA/KK which can (and should) be discounted because they flatted your preflop 3bet (instead of 4betting, which most people will do with AA/KK here, especially those with TAGgy stats). thus the only hand in either of their ranges that beats us is 99 (3 combos) which is outweighed significantly by AQ (8 combos) and AJ (8 combos), and we chop with the 4 combos of AK. thus we will have a positive expectation by bet/calling any raise against their ranges.

the reason i prefer betting $2.4 on the flop is that it creates stack sizes going to the turn such that we can shove the rest in (this will be like 4/5 pot). so we're basically planning our hand around getting maximum value from our opponents ranges (which are significantly weaker than ours). betting $2.4 allows us to do this. and we can obviously snap call or shove the rest in if one of our villains decides to raise the flop. because we are crushing both their ranges.

so yeah, you're obviously being quite results-oriented, as people have mentioned, because your opponent happened to have one of the combinations which have you beat, which make up probably ~20% of their total calling range - the rest of which is drawing very close to dead (ie AQ or AJ vs AK on AK9 flop)

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Originally Posted by PKKFW

Honestly, as played I'm certain all my money was going in no matter what.

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from this statement i infer that you mean "i think it is a +EV proposition to get as much of my money in the pot against the ranges with which my opponents will put their money in the pot"

once you come to this realisation (ie you think it's a +EV stack off spot, on either this street or a later one), your job basically becomes figuring out what line you can take which is most likely to get the most amount of their money in the pot. in this case, i doubt your opponents are going to try to bluff with worse hands (like TT-QQ or whatever), thus their betting range is either equal to or smaller than their calling range (in size and strength) so the best line imo is to bet an amount that sets up a turn shove. btw, just for future reference regarding planning hands around getting value, assuming you bet the pot, you can get all the money in over

1 street with an SPR of 1
2 streets with SPR of 4
4 streets with an SPR of 13

in this case your flop SPR is ~3 on the flop, so you can comfortably get the money in over two streets without having to overbet the pot (or even bet the full pot). which, i think, is the most profitable line.

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Originally Posted by PKKFW

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Originally Posted by chatzilla http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...s/viewpost.gif
CO shows 99 i assume

Yes.

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:banana:

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Originally Posted by chatzilla

:banana:

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well if there are 1 combo each of AA and KK on the flop, and they are both discounted due to preflop action, and we know he lost the hand because he posted it under "can anyone get away from this?", pretty standard read imo ;)

lol shhhhh soul read mate

@ scott and rpm - thanks for the detailed posts. Lots to think about there. Overall I realise I played this hand badly regardless of the outcome.

^ not really. pre is absolutely standard. and checking the flop isn't a huge mistake if it is even one at all - you can still get all the money in by betting the turn and the river (and your opponents may be more inclined to call you down with a weaker range if you do check the flop), plus it's not like checking the flop makes our hand hugely vulnerable as this is a certain way ahead/way behind situation (ie either you are dead to 4 outs, or they are dead to two outs)

My thoughts are that raising the flop does nothing positive. CO is pot committed already, and the only thing a raise accomplishes is isolation. Do you really care about isolating here? I would make a crying call on flop hoping to get a crying call from the likes of AQ from MP.

Only draw here is a gutshot/set draw. I want the MP money in the pot too, but then again I'm just greedy :)

Anyway top two pair AK just bet enough to get calls on flop, and get it in easy on turn. Or bet small 3 streets, and really sucker them in.

^^

Ok, I thought you were asking why I re-raised pre flop. I see what you mean about calling on the flop and that would definitely have been the better play in hindsight I reckon. Either MP was going to call or not but by going all-in I pretty much ensured he didn't.

I agree with rpm in that I don't think checking this flop was bad, i just like betting more..

it may make weaker hands that wouldve folded the flop call a turn bet, and give AQ more confidence in his hand as he may place you on JJ/QQ.. you may also induce flop bluffs form pp's that aren't 99. The best play is likely dependent on player tendencies but you don't know what they are so its better to bet than to slow down i think