Interesting AA line 3-bet pot

5-handed, 100bb, everyone covers

Seat 2: OBigO ($329.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Lukieplaya ($200 in chips)
Seat 4: Nehekus ($283.05 in chips)
Seat 5: CSH$MONSTA ($555.65 in chips)
Seat 6: L4cky4eva ($217.30 in chips)
CSH$MONSTA: posts small blind $1
L4cky4eva: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lukieplaya [As Ad]
OBigO: raises $4 to $6
Lukieplaya: calls $6
Nehekus: folds
CSH$MONSTA: raises $22 to $28
L4cky4eva: folds
kingboss541 joins the table at seat #1
OBigO: folds
Lukieplaya: calls $22
*** FLOP *** [6h 6c 6d]
CSH$MONSTA: bets $33
Lukieplaya: calls $33
*** TURN *** [6h 6c 6d] [9c]
CSH$MONSTA: bets $44
Lukieplaya: calls $44
*** RIVER *** [6h 6c 6d 9c] [Tc]
CSH$MONSTA: bets $152
Lukieplaya: calls $95 and is all-in


notes:

- raw pokerstars HH are awesome. please never convert starts/ftp hh's as converting actually makes them harder to read.

- villain is standard multitabling tagg that logs tons of hands. no pre-flop #'s available, however. range is probably something like JJ+/AK weighted at the top for value with some % of bluffs/semi-bluffs thrown in. what exactly that ratio is I have no meaningful estimate for this specific player.

- I'm mostly interested in discussing the 2 bolded calls. before someone says to 3-bet pre obviously that is the default play and whether I call here 1/3 times or 1/300 times doesn't really matter, it's one of those times.

- The 2nd preflop action is more interesting. Since this preflop situation doesn't come up too terribly often I'm not really sure how to proceed. Thoughts? Obviously 4-betting makes me look FOS, which is probably a good thing.

- Flop seems like a reasonable place to put in a small raise with a fairly wide range. But....... such...... a...... pretty......... board.

- Once we get to the turn I think this has to just be a call for balance issues, but if you really prefer a shove here let me know.

- River obviously is a snap call, pretty much the nuts although once in a blue moon I expect to be shown something like TT or 63s

If I'm flatting pre it would be to back 4 bet.

I feel like flatting flop the best option, don't really like raising. I like your line postflop once you get there.

seems well-played from pre to the river, don t really see any reason for raising at any point

much more likely to 4b pre if villain's range is strong. I doubt he's squeezing then folding JJ+,AK.

Obv played super standard either way.

meh i can go either way back 4bing or calling.

as played i would never raise unless somehow he didnt ship the river. calling down here is wonderful for balance to protect yourself from triple barreling as a bluff in 3b pots.

Seems all around pretty standard to me. Only non-standard spot would be preflop flatting or 4betting.

Calling down on that board seems best for sure.

I like it. nh

If you were in the CO i'd like this line better, but since you're in mp I'd rather 4bet because he's probably not bluffing much pre and he's going to expect you to have QQ-TT

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Originally Posted by Alexos

much more likely to 4b pre if villain's range is strong. I doubt he's squeezing then folding JJ+,AK.

Obv played super standard either way.

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pretty much my thought process

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

If you were in the CO i'd like this line better, but since you're in mp I'd rather 4bet because he's probably not bluffing much pre and he's going to expect you to have QQ-TT

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original raiser was in MP, I'm in CO

Anyway, results are about what I expected, villain shows QQ (then blows up berating me in chat, but I digress)

if you're villain what do you put me on? seems like I'm calling down a lot with 77-JJ type hands right?

you both won at poker with that hand even though his riv shove is thin

i think that not playing it like this without a good read or history is stupid.

seems good to me

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

you both won at poker with that hand even though his riv shove is thin

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It depends how much of a station he thinks we are. If we're not likely to call 77-88 here, then yah the turn river 9/T suck really hard and he's only getting value from JJ. Otherwise I don't think its very thin at all.

Hero's range has most/all pairs in it, and a lot of which will at least get to the turn and sometimes river.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

Anyway, results are about what I expected, villain shows QQ (then blows up berating me in chat, but I digress)

if you're villain what do you put me on? seems like I'm calling down a lot with 77-JJ type hands right?

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I was gonna write if he shows up with QQ here he's retarded. He just doesn't know how to play poker, he's too scared of putting you on a range so he prays you have JJ and gets angry if its anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

I was gonna write if he shows up with QQ here he's retarded. He just doesn't know how to play poker, he's too scared of putting you on a range so he prays you have JJ and gets angry if its anything else.

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How would you play QQ if you were villain?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

I was gonna write if he shows up with QQ here he's retarded. He just doesn't know how to play poker, he's too scared of putting you on a range so he prays you have JJ and gets angry if its anything else.

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ppl can be stations, esp when their range is pretty weak and faceup (lukie's sneakiness excepted)

yeah I think villain played it fine. AA/KK/6s5s/5s4s are going to be such a small part of any reg's weighted range (edit: in hero's spot); obviously the 9 and T peeling off isn't great, but that's only 6 combos of overfulls

What hands worse than QQ are you calling a river shove with here, other than JJ?

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

What hands worse than QQ are you calling a river shove with here, other than JJ?

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My first impression was that since AA/KK/6x/99/TT is a relatively small part of our range, we have to be able to make calls with hands like 77/88 a certain% of the time. In that vein, I don't think JJ is much different than 77 really, aside from the very occasional things like splitting with villain's JJ or him showing up with a hand like T7s.

In practice, I don't think many 1/2 tagg regs are really squeezing then 3-barreling enough to make calling with worse than QQ profitable and we're certainly not folding anything worse. With that analysis it actually seems like a perfect spot to check.

From villain's pov he is normally good on the river, stick it in and let hero invent a reason to call. (probably not a bad thought process either)

I guess I'm on the fence now.

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Originally Posted by Lukie

From villain's pov he is normally good on the river, stick it in and let hero invent a reason to call. (probably not a bad thought process either)

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my reaction might be a little primitive in today's games but this sentence is what resonates the most with me in this thread

maybe i m just too far removed from the ubertaggy american games but my god when i have taken villain's line with AK or AQs i seem to get called down about 1 out of every 2 or 3 times by randoms with weak PP's

Meh it could be me.. I might be a good bit nittier in spots like this than it is correct to be. But I wouldn't expect a river shove with QQ by villain to get called by worse often enough to be profitable. And in your shoes, I would probably want to fold JJ, whether that's right or not, as I don't feel most villains are squeezing then 3barreling often enough to make calling with JJ profitable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

My first impression was that since AA/KK/6x/99/TT is a relatively small part of our range, we have to be able to make calls with hands like 77/88 a certain% of the time. In that vein, I don't think JJ is much different than 77 really, aside from the very occasional things like splitting with villain's JJ or him showing up with a hand like T7s.

In practice, I don't think many 1/2 tagg regs are really squeezing then 3-barreling enough to make calling with worse than QQ profitable and we're certainly not folding anything worse. errrr.... better With that analysis it actually seems like a perfect spot to check.

From villain's pov he is normally good on the river, stick it in and let hero invent a reason to call. (probably not a bad thought process either)

I guess I'm on the fence now.

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Fixed.. my bad

wow, at least in the games i play in there are people who aren't folding 44 here, so QQ is a hi-5 shove. That said, if villain knows Lukie is solid and isn't going to be set-hunting/stubborn-calling flop and turn he should just c/fold river but pf, flop and turn are good.

?? ppl should fold 44 at every decision point unless a whale is at the table ainec

I'm happy jamming QQ as villain what's going on?

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Originally Posted by nutsinho

?? ppl should fold 44 at every decision point unless a whale is at the table ainec

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to the first preflop raise?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

How would you play QQ if you were villain?

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Bet flop, check turn

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Bet flop, check turn

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Betting turn is somewhat close but if I do bet I'm c/f the shit out of that river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Betting turn is somewhat close but if I do bet I'm c/f the shit out of that river.

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man, i wish you could put in 500 hands or so on a non-US site just to see what is going on!

edit : fk that, what am i thinking. you can keep your nittaggy games...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Betting turn is somewhat close but if I do bet I'm c/f the shit out of that river.

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I can't begin to comprehend this. I mean... it's five handed. Yes lukie called an utg open and then called a squeeze, but depending on his fold to 3bet he can have a ton of pairs here. Not to mention some non-zero % of his very big hands 4betting after the squeeze.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I can't begin to comprehend this. I mean... it's five handed. Yes lukie called an utg open and then called a squeeze, but depending on his fold to 3bet he can have a ton of pairs here. Not to mention some non-zero % of his very big hands 4betting after the squeeze.

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Put lukie on a range and we'll see where we disagree.

Here's mine:

preflop 99+, AQs, AKo, JTs, T9s (maybe)

Calling flop bet: 99+

Calling turn barrel: 99+ (99 is now a set)

Calling river shove: Maybe QQ, KK+, sets

regardless of what air he has preflop i highly highly doubt he's floating any of those hands on the flop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Numbr2intheWorld

Put lukie on a range and we'll see where we disagree.

Here's mine:

preflop 99+, AQs, AKo, JTs, T9s (maybe)

Calling flop bet: 99+

Calling turn barrel: 99+ (99 is now a set)

Calling river shove: Maybe QQ, KK+, sets

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I think depending on villain, there will certainly be some that are calling 55+ thinking "man he's squeezing utg open and my call, he could be pretty strong here I should set hunt".

Then 55+ gets to flop, and see's a boat "Well I can't fold now, I'll peel", and I also think people peel here with AK/AQ on the flop pretty often.

Turn is probably a big question mark depending on villain, and will make a big difference in how we view this hand. I agree that 99+ continues again, but given what I perceive his flop calling range to be I think this is still a bet since I think his continuing range is wider to a turn bet here than bet/ck/bet line.

River I think a lot of that garbage can find a fold, I don't mind the c/f here given the run-out.

Preflop: 55+, AQs, AKo, JTs, T9s (maybe)

Flop: 55-88, AQ, AK (all around 75%), 99+
56 combos of 55-88, AQ, AK, if 75% continue thats 42 combos
18 combos of 99-JJ
13 combos of QQ-AA (50% discount due to preflop, so 6.5 combos)
24.5 combos of 99-AA

Turn: 55-88 (40%? - think the type of person that peels flop with these hands is more likely to be the type to continue again), AQ/AK (15%?), 99+
All 21.5 combos of 99-AA continue on turn 9 (3 less combos of 99 now)
He calls with TT, JJ that we beat - 6 combos
We now lose to 6 combos of KK-AA, chop 0.5 QQ combo, lose to 3 combos of 99 - losing to 9 combos
Of the total 42 combos of 55-88, AQ/AK need him to call at least 3 combos for a profitable turn bet (7% of the time, this seems very reasonable)

River: T
-big disaster card, not enough of the above continuing 55-88,AQ/AK hands will call to warrant betting when we only really beat JJ of his legit calling range



River: c/f

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I think depending on villain, there will certainly be some that are calling 55+ thinking "man he's squeezing utg open and my call, he could be pretty strong here I should set hunt".

Then 55+ gets to flop, and see's a boat "Well I can't fold now, I'll peel", and I also think people peel here with AK/AQ on the flop pretty often.

Turn is probably a big question mark depending on villain, and will make a big difference in how we view this hand. I agree that 99+ continues again, but given what I perceive his flop calling range to be I think this is still a bet since I think his continuing range is wider to a turn bet here than bet/ck/bet line.

River I think a lot of that garbage can find a fold, I don't mind the c/f here given the run-out.

Preflop: 55+, AQs, AKo, JTs, T9s (maybe)

Flop: 55-88, AQ, AK (all around 75%), 99+
56 combos of 55-88, AQ, AK, if 75% continue thats 42 combos
18 combos of 99-JJ
13 combos of QQ-AA (50% discount due to preflop, so 6.5 combos)
24.5 combos of 99-AA

Turn: 55-88 (40%? - think the type of person that peels flop with these hands is more likely to be the type to continue again), AQ/AK (15%?), 99+
All 21.5 combos of 99-AA continue on turn 9 (3 less combos of 99 now)
He calls with TT, JJ that we beat - 6 combos
We now lose to 6 combos of KK-AA, chop 0.5 QQ combo, lose to 3 combos of 99 - losing to 9 combos
Of the total 42 combos of 55-88, AQ/AK need him to call at least 3 combos for a profitable turn bet (7% of the time, this seems very reasonable)

River: T
-big disaster card, not enough of the above continuing 55-88,AQ/AK hands will call to warrant betting when we only really beat JJ of his legit calling range



River: c/f

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Alright, makes sense. I'd be interested in how many players call 55-88 pre and then continue with them on two barrels, I think it's likely a lot will not. Then again, this is 1/2 so I'm not sure how the regs play.

Don't you think at higher stakes, ppl in lukie's spot will be even more likely to be floaty with lower pairs/AQ/AK because squeezers will have an even wider range?

great thread

id rather have AK than 99 and im not foldin AQ either that's for sure

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

Don't you think at higher stakes, ppl in lukie's spot will be even more likely to be floaty with lower pairs/AQ/AK because squeezers will have an even wider range?

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Higher stakes doesn't mean that everyone is more aggressive. Some players are, then there's a lot players who play very solid tagg who aren't just gonna randomly call 66 preflop here ever. And at high stakes the CO in this situation will call big pairs here often, so I'm not sure if many good players are going to squeeze this spot very often unless they know the CO calls wide.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

man, i wish you could put in 500 hands or so on a non-US site just to see what is going on!

edit : fk that, what am i thinking. you can keep your nittaggy games...

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This will probably sound ridiculous, but I consider any table with a fish to be a good table. e.g. myself, 4 normal tagg regulars, and a fish is a table I pretty much won't close down unless I'm ending my session.

We probably even have very different ideas on what constitutes a fish. A player that open limps, maybe calls too much and is generally pretty passive and bad but who doesn't make huge mistakes after the flop is still a fish in my book. The type that calls down with any piece on most any board is so rare and when they do come around they go broke so fast. It's kind of sad but that's the reality of the games on pokerstars.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lukie

This will probably sound ridiculous, but I consider any table with a fish to be a good table. e.g. myself, 4 normal tagg regulars, and a fish is a table I pretty much won't close down unless I'm ending my session.

We probably even have very different ideas on what constitutes a fish. A player that open limps, maybe calls too much and is generally pretty passive and bad but who doesn't make huge mistakes after the flop is still a fish in my book. The type that calls down with any piece on most any board is so rare and when they do come around they go broke so fast. It's kind of sad but that's the reality of the games on pokerstars.

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i mean, non-us ppl probably exaggerate the difference; even on a site like PKR which probably has the highest fish ratio anywhere (whee 3D graphics!), it s not like the 2-4 games are crawling with fish

BUT the crazy thing is that most of the regs are stuck in 2007 mode. that s the biggest difference i see. the good taggs and laggs just stick out like a bunch of sore thumbs.