FTR, Please help me become a wining 2NL player

Hey all,

I "played"some poker and "tried" to go serious ..
:clap:Lost about 300 dollars by now :clap:

FTR, Please help me become a wining 2NL player.

I started for fun, read trough the "theorie of poker" and started to do more volume. then I read renton`s article`s in the Beginners Digest. I know I can play a winning game with that in 2 NL but with marginal winnings only. But as I boought poker tracker I saw that the best winning players that I have a lot of hands on, have some verry tagg like numbers. PFR of 4% So I tried to imitate that a bit but I also read through some articles of Spoonitnow. I got lost and, I lost ..:confused:

After all I read I think spoonitnow goes by far the most into detail with his exercises and articcle`s / post. I wil start all over with his line and exercises. Recharched my acount and I will do the exercises here in this thread.

My posflop play is already becoming stronger as I do have played over 50.000 hands and lost mainly because of bankroll management errors !!! Also I now know for a fact that OPEN raising doesn`t mean raising AQo OTB with three limpers aleady in.

As I started my study today I noticed that in pokerstove spoonit`s line is quite loose, up to about 37% for the button. Another strange thing in pokerstove. At 6% AQo still isn`t in it but it does give ATs, which spoonitnow places for open raisingon MP2.
Are these cards really better than AQo ?? So I matched them in pokerstove and it gives 69.368% equity for the AQo :rolleyes: Anny comments ??

I`ll give playing a little rest for now and start with the exercises in moment. When I do start playing it will be 4 tabling at the max jsut to get a feel with the much looser open raising line and at the same time calling less raises and calling raises with SC`s in position.



Exercise #1
1 - Well acording to spoonit`s line and not much wider despite the tight OTB because of the loose maniak 6% three bet pre SB and not much smaller to as with SC`s you just might win a big hand of him ;) So :
T9s-65s(maybe even 34s), AXs, all broadways, All pocket pairs.

2 - 55, 66, TT+, A5s, A6s, ATs, JT (would I play JT as a broadway or only suited and then QJo+ ??) Also (new to me still) I might be in there with 78s

3 - 55, 66, TT+, A5spades, A6sspades, ATs, JT any broadway suited spades 78s (spades or other suit)

4 - 55, 66, TT+, A5spades, A6sspades, ATs, JT any broadway suited spades

Hope to post exercise 2 tomorow and do about an exercise a day if my hectic life/wife will let me.

Greetings
Tha fish :cool:

First off, good first post. In a game where egos run rampant for no logical reason, admitting you need help is a good thing. One piece of advice I can give you right away is to not make things too difficult at uNL games. Don't level yourself - tight ABC poker kills these games. Another thing you should be concerned with is hand reading, and I don't see any mention of it in your post. Putting players on a range of hands is the single most important aspect of the game. Along with your preflop stuff, work on this too. There's tons of threads out there about the subject. See the BC digest and the search feature. ;)

I'd say start by playing tight. Very, very tight. It will be long and boring waiting for good hands. But most of your post flop decisions will be easy and you will learn in the process. Do not bluff, don't do anything fancy, don't steal, don't play speculative hands like suited connectors. Learn to set mine. Just play tight, ABC, mathematical poker and make honest and strong value bets. Don't open up your game too much in position in the beginning. Do it little by little and only against the right villains.

If in doubt, fold. A very big part of winning is not loosing. It will be frustrating waiting an hour for aces only to get sucked out on by some donk. But that's poker and that's part of the learning process.

So play like a nit and in the process you will learn important aspects of the game like discipline and patience. And on that nit platform you will build and add more complex plays. Read books and the forums and post hands you had trouble with (not only the ones where you lost, more importantly the ones where you thought your decision was difficult or maybe wrong even though you won the hand).

And yes: put your opponent on a range, and develop a sense of how your hand is doing against this range.

Good luck

John Doe - good post and I hope you keep up with it.

I think it would be beneficial for you to post a screen shot of your stats from PT3. As many stats as you can post the better.

Also, post a ton of hands.

Remember - the first sign of success is not making money - its not losing money

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Remember - the first sign of success is not making money - its not losing money

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From a noob fish perspective, this is so true. I play 5NL and for thousands of hands I was a break even to slightly positive player. I became a winning player (winrate still need to improve) by working on eliminating the "What the hell was I thinking" type of hands.

Good luck on your quest.

disagree w/daddem's post aobut being a nit. imo if we're not playing hands, then we're not getting into interesting spots and we can't improve.

@OP, put villains on a range every single hand, and concentrate on valuebetting like there's no 2moro, you'll crush micro's in no time.

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Originally Posted by unclesteve

disagree w/daddem's post aobut being a nit. imo if we're not playing hands, then we're not getting into interesting spots and we can't improve.

@OP, put villains on a range every single hand, and concentrate on valuebetting like there's no 2moro, you'll crush micro's in no time.

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I was not telling him to be a nit and stay a nit. What I meant is that he should learn to play AK before he learns to run bluffs with 78s.

Anyone remembers where is this thread or article that was showing that the vast majority of winnings at microstakes comes from QQ+,AK or so? Couldn't find it.

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Originally Posted by unclesteve

disagree w/daddem's post aobut being a nit. imo if we're not playing hands, then we're not getting into interesting spots and we can't improve.

@OP, put villains on a range every single hand, and concentrate on valuebetting like there's no 2moro, you'll crush micro's in no time.

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Defo disregaurd this. Beating 2nl isn't about getting into interesting spots. Playing tight ABC poker is the way to beat 2nl. Leave the interesting shit until later.

Well, just a small in between answer. Obviously I want more than just win at 2NL. I want to inprove my game. But As I pointed out allready, funny thing of pokertracker is you can see other people do it and also how they do it. Like "72oEnough" I have like 1200 hands on him and he has a verry nice 45 degfrees upgoing graph. He`s not really posiotional aware has vpip of 10 and pfr of 4 so he`s just verry tag / fitfoldish and that works. Well this is "just" a matter of adjusting your game to your opponents as it just assumes the other ones are going to make mistakes, as they will at 2NL. It really shows that nutcamping does it in this level. But I`m sure there`s better winrates possible.
Doing all this study allready starting to give me trust again. Also thinking about all this lets me realize that with renton`s article I pretty much was there but, when I start with a bluff and it works I get results oriented, knowing what my equity is when bluffing will help me not to start bluffing all my hands. (a c betting of 100% is not strange to me). I hope spoonit exercises will help me !!


Ranges and putting them on something is wat I started learning. Speaking of this, has no one a comment at the strange thing in pokerstove especially in comparison to the line spoonitnow suggests ??

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Another strange thing in pokerstove. At 6% AQo still isn`t in it but it does give ATs, which spoonitnow places for open raisingon MP2.
Are these cards really better than AQo ?? So I matched them in pokerstove and it gives 69.368% equity for the AQo Anny comments ??

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Posting my tracker stats doesn`t do really much I think, as I`m really changing my game regulary to learn what certain changes will do for me. I might do this in the future as my new (spoonitnow`s) game develops.

Thnx for all input
Greetings
Tha learning fish.

Editted cause wrighting all this really gets me thinking.
I`m learning lots :cool:

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Originally Posted by John Doe

Speaking of this, has no one a comment at the strange thing in pokerstove especially in comparison to the line spoonitnow suggests ??

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From the pokerstove FAQ, Q12:

Q12. How does the PokerStove slider rank preflop hands?

The slider interface for setting the top N% of hands orders the hands according to their preflop all-in equity versus three random hands. This rather arbitrary selection was picked because it balances the value of high cards with the value of drawing cards. It is not an absolute ordering, and depending on the specific situation you may want to edit that range of hands when doing equity calculations.

heres a free set of videos that will help you to stop losing at 2nl.

101 series full ring

Basically they are showing you what everyone else is saying about playing tight and are designed to stop you losing , not to crush 2nl. Watch the lectures and its explained why you are doing things and why you should avoid doing some things.

Get the basics right and then you can start adding concepts to up your winrate. Forget about a lot of the strategies talked about in the higher stakes .They are designed to beat higher stakes where players actually realise they have a fold button. At 2nl most players don't realise that you can raise more than just pressing the raise button and don't realise that the time they flopped a full house with 72o was an extreme rarity and that all the time they are limping in with such crap they are spewing money.

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Originally Posted by supahaole

Defo disregaurd this. Beating 2nl isn't about getting into interesting spots. Playing tight ABC poker is the way to beat 2nl. Leave the interesting shit until later.

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guess it's a philosophy thing.

Personally i prefer to play pretty loose, get into alot of interesting spots and force myself to analyse my game and villain's game, both in real time and during HH review afterward. This has always been my attitude, and even if it sometimes hurts my winrate in the shorterm, in the longterm it's defn +ev coz i'm getting better at poker.

I don't mean start playing 35/30, but start opening interesting hands, like 56s in LP, or call an utg open w/JTs, etc.

But yeah, if you just wanna beat the limit and not get better at poker, your way is better.

Its nothing to do with philosophy , its bad advice that you are giving. If you want to play loose and get into spots fine, go ahead . I'm laggy too , but this is a guy wanting to know how to beat 2nl. The easiest way is to tighten up your starting hands , play in position , set mine, fold to late street aggression and profit. He can start adding in more marginal hands once he has become profitable and starts to improve his post flop play.

Most of the 2nl spew is directly attributable to pre flop mistakes , so why advise him to make those preflop mistakes in the first place

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Originally Posted by John Doe

Well, just a small in between answer. Obviously I want more than just win at 2NL. I want to inprove my game. But As I pointed out allready, funny thing of pokertracker is you can see other people do it and also how they do it. Like "72oEnough" I have like 1200 hands on him and he has a verry nice 45 degfrees upgoing graph. He`s not really posiotional aware has vpip of 10 and pfr of 4 so he`s just verry tag / fitfoldish and that works. Well this is "just" a matter of adjusting your game to your opponents as it just assumes the other ones are going to make mistakes, as they will at 2NL. It really shows that nutcamping does it in this level. But I`m sure there`s better winrates possible.

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dont copy other people from PT3 and dont think he is a winning 2nl if you have 1,2k hands on him.

i played this guy a lot, have 5k 2nl on him, 4k on 5nl and 1k at 10nl and he is a losing player. he cant assign ranges, cant read board texture, cand recognize a set from betting from betting line, he is only: "wow! TPTK, AI flop or turn!", this is the kind of player he is. and that is not a poker player!

better do this way: post hands here and listen to people advice, learn and study and play as much as you can , learn to assign ranges,learn to calculate your pot odds ,learn to read and use the HUD, learn to fold AA psot flop when you should to, learn to read a betting line, and like all said here: play 2nl ABC poker .

You will not beat 2nl by opening suited connectors, gappers, belly busters, etc. You will rarely flop well enough to show a big profit because 2nl villains don't have a fold button. Raise your big hands, isolate with broadways, set hunt, value bet, profit. Don't steal with 97o from the CO because you suck postflop and villains don't fold. Play 12/10 nit-tag ABC poker and you will beat the game for 5ptbb/100 over a decent sample. Learn to walk before you run.

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

.... Play 12/10 nit-tag ABC poker and you will beat the game for 5ptbb/100 over a decent sample. Learn to walk before you run.

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I'm still walking cause I still play 12/10 nit tag ABC poker for the most part.

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

I'm still walking cause I still play 12/10 nit tag ABC poker for the most part.

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If you're not playing at a table where you have solid reads on everyone that they have a fold button installed, is there really a reason not to?

@ Razvan729 Do you really think this guy`s loosing at 2NL ??

Well for the rest, I allready pretty much know that tight honest abc poker will win at 2NL.
I`ll start playing again later this week taking some verry strong lines like :
- no bluffing, if you have the ace of harts and a fourflush with it, you can bet all you want, they still not gonna fold that pair of 4`s !!
- Only open with spoons line when no limpers are in there yet, with limpers only call/ with verry strong hands, like 4 %.
- play verry fit/foldish postflop.
- be verry willing to fold on all strong bets. from opponents when not holding the absoluut nuts
- bet the nuts hard always, don`t let them draw me out !!


For some reason I always and up in spots where you just know a bluff would be the perfect play, but it works only the first few times. After that, the villians become so idiot that it becomes -ev so adjusting to this is not bluffing at all.

I hope spoons exercises will help figure out how much and against who I can and should bluff to increase my winrate with some reall odds/outs knowledge

Here`s
exercise # 2
range was T9s-65s(maybe even 34s), AXs, all broadways, All pocket pairs.

From wich I raise with 55, 66, TT+, A5s, A6s, ATs, JT (would I play JT as a broadway or only suited and then QJo+ ??) Also (new to me still) I might be in there with 78s

And so will I check with

22, 33, 44, 77, A2s, a3s, a4s, a7s, all other broadways

Exercise 3 tomorrow :)

hes not loosing. seems like hes destroying 2nl over half a mil hands and about 1.2 grand up never been below 26 dollar. somewhat better than me i think

FORGET BLUFFING AT 2NL.

just look at the stupidity of what you are saying in your post.

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no bluffing, if you have the ace of harts and a fourflush with it, you can bet all you want, they still not gonna fold that pair of 4`s !!

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this is obviously the correct line you should be thinking along. So WHY THE FUCK are you then saying

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For some reason I always and up in spots where you just know a bluff would be the perfect play, but it works only the first few times. After that, the villians become so idiot that it becomes -ev so adjusting to this is not bluffing at all.

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I'm guessing this is why you are losing money in the long run. You think micro poker is about bluffing. Its not,its about getting value from your monsters. As you move up it gets harder and harder to extract value with your big hands so you have to start adding in marginal hands and bluffs and semi bluffs. But at 2nl forget it , you are likely to be multiway , the villains don't have a fold button , and if one of them does find it , the likelyhood is that the others won't have a clue where it is.

Don't post much anymore but bridge the bar has vids by blackrain79. Who is widely known as the greatest 2nl player of all times. Of course why anybody would want to be the supreme king of 2nl is beyond me but to each his own.

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Originally Posted by John Doe

@ Razvan729 Do you really think this guy`s loosing at 2NL ??

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yes he is, being a 10/4 over 1200 hands doesnt mean he is a winning player, being tight preflop doesnt mean you are going to make money.... post flop play is also extremely important, acttually you can be loose pre if you are very good post flop player.

i am gonna post ( i'll try at least, still dont know how to post them ) stats for my first 5nl 25k hands, last november... from those stats you will see i am 13/10, and you will prob think i am a winning player! wrong, in 25 hands i lost 110$ playing 5nl, being 13/10, why?because i sucked postflop and i was 13/10 but not the right 13/10, i was opening tight and calling raises tight, but with the wrong hands and didnt know how to play postflop! so even if my stats were good, my winrate was negative. seeing my bankroll going down, i moved up to 10nl and tried to get the money back, and i did by playing ABC poker at 10nl, but first week of january 2011, i rewied my play in PT3 and seen that even that i was wining at 10nl i was just a lucky jackass and hit a good run, that why i got my money back... so , leaving aside my ego, i came back at 2nl to learn to be a POKER PLAYER! this means i took all from beginning. why? because i needed to learn what to play and in what position, when and what to cbet,when to float, to recognize betting lines, to see a bluff, to learn who and when to bluff, to become positional aware, to calculate quick my equity, when to shove, when to call, how to play different types of players, how to adjust my range when playing diff types of players, to become better at range assigning, to learn to fold and many others....

i still suck at poker , but at least i am learning and i am winning , have a 7.68BB/100 last 30k hands in 2nl and if i see back my hands, i am not ashamed of my play. so my advice to you from my own experience: leave all this exercises, read and learn all in BEGINNERS DIGEST, start posting hands, get your ass kicked ( some of here did like this with mine but i thank them cause it helped) , ask questions as silly as they may seem and as often as you need, listen the advice and apply what you learn .... and soon you will be winning 2nl and after that level by level....

Hey Razvan

I more thaught he`s winning because he got over 53 BB/100 in 1200 hands. Know he`s running hot here but still all players in my database who i have seen winning anything over 600+ hands play about the same style, tight fit/fold poker.


exercise # 3

1. Are you vulnerable to a flop pot-sized raise against your flop c-betting range from Exercise 2 if Villain has KQ?
If I bet 5bb into 7.5bb, then a pot-sized raise for Villain is a raise to 17.5bb. He's betting 17.5bb when the pot is 12.5bb sooo, 17.5/(17.5+12.5)=58% of our range we should fold for his bluff to be +EV, not counting his equity when we call.

flop cbetting range is
AK(12), AQ(12), AJ(16), AT(12), KQ(9), KJ(12), KT(9), QJ(12), QT(9),
JT(12), AA(6), KK(3), QQ(3), JJ(6), TT(3), 66(3), 55(3), T9s(3), 98s(4), 87s(4), 65s(2), 34s(4)
159 combo`s
and I wil continue with
AT(12), KT(9), QT(9), JT(12), AA(6), KK(3), QQ(3), JJ(6), TT(3), 66(3), 55(3), 65s(2),
71 combo`s
71 / 159 = 45 %
So, with my (new) game I`m only folding 55% and he needed 58% So I would not be vulnerable

17/(17+12.5) = 58%
3. What is your flop c-betting range trying to exploit in Villain's play? asuming range :
AK(12), AQ(12), AJ(16), AT(12), KQ(9), KJ(12), KT(9), QJ(12), QT(9),
JT(12), AA(6), KK(3), QQ(3), JJ(6), TT(3), 66(3), 55(3), T9s(3), 98s(4), 87s(4), 65s(2), 34s(4)
159 combo`s
and I wil continue with
AJ(16), AT(12), KT(9), KJ(12), QT(9), JT(12), JJ(6), TT(3), 66(3), 55(3), 65s(2),
87 combo`s
87 / 159 = 55 %
So, with my (new) game I`m only folding 55% and he needed 58% so I would not be vulnerable

Well some numers and stuff may be of. I`m new and it`s most of all just for the experience.

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If I bet 5bb into 7.5bb, then a pot-sized raise for Villain is a raise to 17.5bb.

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Nope: 22.5
http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-185247.html

Oeps mist that still :)
Thanx Davidem

Now back to the exercises before I finaly get to play some hours :)
In exercise #3 I`m NOT really vulnerable but that is because I`ve chosen not to bluf much because i have bad experience with that and because it`s not what been advised in this thread ..
I have read through exercises 4 and 5 and it`s verry sophiticated at the end of 5. Wanted to ask if it`s really +ev to change your play depending on some stats in the micro`s because a 10/5 could be raising only with the 5% worst hands (theoreticly) as they r soo bad sometimes. And because most people here advise simple no brainer honest abc wtf ever poker for the micro`s.

At the end of exercise #5 I suddenly figure`d this REALLY makes deciscions as it`s all about adjusting to you`re apponent. Knowing this, and by chosing how to play your entire range to exploit his play is all information that makes it somehow easier to accept the cards that dealtyou`re not longer waiting for good cards. more for good situations and that is card/ opponent/ pot/ size/ position etc depending.

knowing that can make it easier to see when to play what cards.

A Question to spoontinow
Is a 500 hands sample sufficient to make these kind of decisions ?? And does this kind of dicision making really make your game a lot more profitable at he lowest limits. As 20 % vpip isn`t always the same 20% of cards.

in the mean time exercise #4

1. If someone folds to flop continuation bets a whole lot, you can adjust by _cbet more, maybe open up preflop, slowplay more with stong hands.
2. If someone calls the flop continuation bets a whole lot and folds to a turn continuation bet a whole lot, you can adjust by _bet more on the flop with monsters, float more, or just cbet more for two streets ??.
3. If someone folds their blinds pre-flop a whole lot, you can adjust by _open up preflop, slowplay big hands more.
4. If someone raises flop continuation bets a lot, you can adjust by __raise good hands, check fold weak hands, check more and raise less air.
5. If someone calls down multiple streets with any piece, you can adjust by _value bet more_ more and _bluf less__ less.
6. If someone open-raises a very wide range pre-flop and doesn't 4-bet a wide range, you can adjust by _three bet more, open up a little(less than him).
7. If someone open-raises a very tight range pre-flop, you can adjust by _open up more.
8. If someone continuation bets the flop a lot of the time, you can adjust by _three bet more, check more.

Now and tomorrow morning I`m gonna do some tight shit. Spoon, I`m really curios to your answer.
When becomes it profitable to play differently then clean abc poker in the micro`s, as playing thight abc acutally allready is adjusting to your apponents.

Manny thnx in advance

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Originally Posted by John Doe

I have read through exercises 4 and 5 and it`s verry sophiticated at the end of 5. Wanted to ask if it`s really +ev to change your play depending on some stats in the micro`s because a 10/5 could be raising only with the 5% worst hands (theoreticly) as they r soo bad sometimes. And because most people here advise simple no brainer honest abc wtf ever poker for the micro`s.

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If you think that a 10/5 is going to be raising his worst 5% of hands at 2nl ,forget about playing poker because you aren't learning anything.

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At the end of exercise #5 I suddenly figure`d this REALLY makes deciscions as it`s all about adjusting to you`re apponent. Knowing this, and by chosing how to play your entire range to exploit his play is all information that makes it somehow easier to accept the cards that dealtyou`re not longer waiting for good cards. more for good situations and that is card/ opponent/ pot/ size/ position etc depending.

knowing that can make it easier to see when to play what cards.

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Again I can see this being applied wrongly.Whilst its true that you adapt to your opponents , build a solid basic game first and then once you have that working , have improved at hand reading , have a better post flop game and are profitable THEN start to adapt by widening your ranges to adapt to your opponents.

If you don't have a solid basis to work from and suddenly think .oooo i can adapt and play marginal hands you are goingto spew so much money and think that the advice you have been given is wrong and that poker is rigged.

Get a profitable baseline to your game , then adapt your game to gain post flop experience then adapt to your opponents etc and as you get used to all the changes that you make slowly you'll know why you are doing what you are doing. If you try and do too mucha t once ,you'll make massive mistakes.

^^ +1

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Originally Posted by John Doe

FTR, Please help me become a wining 200NL player

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FYT

Don`t know what fyt means but I have played quite some hands allready, all to learn what to do when and how people react etc. For me the time has now come to make decisions more on the basis of what is actually +EV instead of just Fuck them suckers up a bit and gamble some along the way.
I allready asked the question of when does it becomes more profitable to adapt to opponents based on their stats.

Also I don`t think a 10/5 is raising the 5% percent worst hands but I have seen people doing strange tings. Soo in a good game you may be good to"assume" someone plays sertain hands in a range % but in 2NL this percentage and actual hands can differ greatly

so all the math that uses average figures might not work as well against people that have no idea of what they`re doing.


For Your Information
I played some hands winnning some bucks, just tight and honest. Sample is not big enough yet though ..

Spoon ??? Really would like to see an answer from you, if you realy think adapting your game to players stats is the way to go in micro`s ?? I can see it wworking to get the pressure really on them villains only, it`s just that they can do such strange things sometimes ..


Last, exercise 5 really makes playing honest abc poker easier as you start to look more at the situation as a whole instead of looking at the pot, getting comitted and don`t want to give up. Just look at all variable`s to make the most +EV dicision ..

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but there is another way. If instead you think about how you would like to play your range as a whole first, it makes certain types of decisions much easier, especially on the early streets. It also makes it easier to stick to an exploitive strategy that will force a constant edge over time.

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but just in general how you think they will play on that board given what you know about them as far as stats and notes go. With that in mind, describe your counter-strategy. That is, describe how you're going to play the flop to take advantage of what you know about their play, and why you're choosing to play your range in that way.

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Cheers
Tha confused
:cool:

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Originally Posted by John Doe

Hey Razvan

I more thaught he`s winning because he got over 53 BB/100 in 1200 hands. Know he`s running hot here but still all players in my database who i have seen winning anything over 600+ hands play about the same style, tight fit/fold poker.

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why you wanna adjust after saying youself the bold part? bold part is the truth and the best way to win at 2nl, 5nl.

like Keith said and he knows what he is saying, forget about adjusting at 2nl and just play ABC poker, this will teach you everything you need to win 2nl, 5nl and will establish poker basics and a solid starting point for you to become a winning poker player.

after mastering basic you can add in your play a lot more stuff, but trying to do them all at once and at 2nl is just burning money.

how do you wanna adjust and play all these when your still a player who calls with AA a AI reraise on a TJQ flop?

why dont you want to listen to all these winning poker players telling you just stick to ABC poker for now?

Hey Razvan
Manny thnx for your input here.

I`m listening but I want to learn something to. So I`ll be playing tight abc for now.

I don`t know if you have a hand on me wehre I called that shove on TJQ flop but it`s not been after I started this thread I`m sure.

I would like to know when adjusting to apponents make for a better winrate. So let`s say you are a winning player etc. How manny hands you want to have at least on someone in your hud.
And would some one like spoon do it annyway in a game at 2NL ??

Next post I`ll try to post a hand in wich you can see that stats etc. may tell you a range but then he shows 72o on the showdown, I know he was in because he had the big blind, but he calls raisies like he has a hand ..

By the way, I`ve played 3300 hands at almost 20 BB/100 in tha plus :)

Here`s the hand, it could fit in the no money, everybody`s solid topic to I geuss.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

sisi_117 (UTG) ($1.88)
777vivas777 (MP1) ($1.52)
qmxman (MP2) ($0.87)
doggosu (CO) ($2)
Hero (Button) ($2.32)
Emerson.Aces (SB) ($2)
katxorro666 (BB) ($4.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ac.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/3c.gif
sisi_117 calls $0.02, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.02, 1 fold, katxorro666 checks

Flop: ($0.07) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/7s.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/6c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ad.gif (3 players)
katxorro666 checks, sisi_117 checks, Hero bets $0.08, katxorro666 calls $0.08, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.23) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/ts.gif (2 players)
katxorro666 checks, Hero bets $0.08, katxorro666 calls $0.08

River: ($0.39) http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...smilies/qs.gif (2 players)
katxorro666 checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $0.39 | Rake: $0.01
Main pot: $0.39 between Hero and katxorro666, won by Hero

Results:
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (one pair, Aces).
katxorro666 had 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: Hero won $0.38



Without going into details about his stats etc. I can tell this kind of stuff happens regulary, Don`t say I played this to the best either.
Just want to know if adjusting to apponents could inprove your winrate significant at 2 NL based on stats??

Greetings

dunno why you think your opponent played this hand badly enough to be in the no money everyones solid thread when you played it atrociously and demostrates why you need to concentrate on the basics before you even start thinking about more advanced play.


preflop you have an UTG limper , why are you limping behind and even letting the BB play the hand.If you raise and isolate the limper the BB out of position with 72o IS folding . UTG is not fully stacked and is limping UTG he either has aces and/or hes a fish. If you raise and he reraises he has Aces and you fold.Otherwise he likely folds you take down the blinds and the dead money from the limper and move on.

If UTG calls and checks that flop ,cbet 2/3 pot and he will be folding like he did in the hand cos he missed the flop, if he check raises you he likely has a better Ace than you so you fold.

as you played it you are on the button and limp , you have a massively wide range here, he checks the flop and you bet pot. You've been talking about how you bluff does he think you are just cbetting air here since unlikely to have an Ace else you would have raised pre.On the turn you only bet 1/3 pot . You talk about seeing great spots to bluff raise yet you give him a great opportunity to do it to you.He called your cbet so you have to include lots of Ax in his range and what Aces do you beat?You are saying that you are scared of the ace.

and straight draws and flush draws at 2nl is probably calling such a weak bet if not raising you. Checking behind on the river is about he only thing you did right when flush and straight draws got there and better aces have you beaten.

The way to beat 2nl is to play tight an agressively in position,and value betting.The way to spew money is by limping and letting poor players hit big hands cheaply and then donating them money.

So pull your EGO in admit you suck preflop , watch the videos i linked you to earlier in this thread that you have totally ignored and try and sort out your preflop play , then try and sort out your post flop play then keep doing it and build your bankroll , then when you know what you are doing after 20k hands showing a consistent winrate start and look at ways to improve your winrate.

you should pay keith.... even a personal coach cant say it better and give better advice then this ^

TUFFLOVE sounds like he's being harsh but for sure everything he said is bang on the money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith_MM

dunno why you think your opponent played this hand badly enough to be in the nomoney everyones solid thread when you played it atrociously and demosytartes why you need to concentrat on the basics before you even start thinking about more advanced play.


preflop you have an UTG limper , why are you limping behind and even letting the BB play the hand.If you raise and isolate the limper the BB out of position with 72o IS folding . UTG is not fully stacked and is limping UTG he either has aces and/or hes a fish. If you raise and he reraises he has Aces and you fold.Otherwise he likely folds you take down the blinds and the dead money from the limper and move on.

If UTG calls and checks that flop ,cbet 2/3 pot and he will be folding like he did in the hand cos he missed the flop, if he check raises you he likely has a better Ace than you so you fold.

as you played it you are on the button and limp , you have a massively wide range here, he checks the flopand you bet pot. You've been talking about how you bluff does he think you are just cbetting air here since unlikely to have an Ace else you would have raised pre.On the turn you only bet 1/3 pot . You talk about seeing great spots to bluff raise yet you give him a great opportunity to do it to you.He called your cbet so you have to include lots of Ax in his range and what Aces do you beat?You are saying that you are scared of the ace.

and straight draws and flush draws at 2nl is probably calling such a weak bet if not raising you. Checking behind on the river is about he only thing you did right when flush and straight draws got there and better aces have you beaten.

The way to beat 2nl is to play tight an agressively in position,and value betting.The way to spew money is by limping and letting poor players hit big hands cheaply and then donating them money.

So pull your EGO in admit you suck preflop , watch the videos i linked you to earlier in this thread that you have totally ignored and try and sort out your preflop play , then try and sort out your post flop play then keep doing it and build your bankroll , then when you know what you are doing after 20k hands showing a consistent winrate start and look at ways to improve your winrate.

---

Huh, wonder if one post can be made a sticky? :hmm: More people that are trying to learn the game (me included) should read this.:clap:

yes keith gotta admit
I only glanced at the vids before, was a bit affraid of the time span. Used my time to play some hands, went then started to suck again. Watched vids #1 and started togo up again :) taking time to learn to swim when still dry is better then just jump in deep waters and go from there.
You did a great job on explaining the hand to.

I`ll leave the exercises for what they are right know
as I didn`t found a good hand for #5 and decided to watch them vids one by one

Gotta admit to, it`s hard to change habbits. But I really need to as the game they teach is quite different from what I used to do !!
I guessat some point I forgotten it`s all about betting money saying
"I BET I HAVE THE BEST HAND"

Done about 7000 hands
up some dollars but it flattens, probaply partly because I 15 tabled trying
to keep silverstar :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Doe

yes keith gotta admit
I only glanced at the vids before, was a bit affraid of the time span. Used my time to play some hands, went then started to suck again. Watched vids #1 and started togo up again :) taking time to learn to swim when still dry is better then just jump in deep waters and go from there.
You did a great job on explaining the hand to.

---

This is where you really have to sit down and think and ask yourself some questions .

1. do you just want to play poker or do you want to understand how to play poker.

it may sound like the same question asked a different way but its fundamental to whether you will succeed in making money and moving up the stakes.If you are just playing poker the cards are dealt and you bet call or fold like allthe other fish.If you want to understand how to play poker you realize that you will have to do a lot of study in order to achieve that understanding. To know why you will be playing some cards on the button one hand and folding them in the same position at the same time on a different table.To know why you are raising , to know the optimum bet size.To learn what adjustments you should be making to your opponents and why,. The effect stack sizes have etc.

you were given a resource to help you study , to start to learn and improve, but you just wanted to play some poker.

Or to put it another way. Think of your poker career as building a house as somewhere to live.You've nailed some boards and corrugated tin together and made a shack but around you you see people have built themselves some nice new houses and you want one. Not really knowing how to go about it though , you sign up for some night classes and learn a bit of bricklaying.eager to get on with your house you clear the ground and start laying some bricks and thinking ahead you start asking your neighbours about the electrics.

The neighbours tell you to forget about the electrics as you needn't know about them until you have the house built but give you some advice about needing to build off solid foundations.You don't think you have the time to knock the bricks down you already laid though so that you can dig some trenches and lay some concrete foundations to build off , so you decide to just knock bits down and lay some foundations there and hope that it will be enough.Time passes you lay more bricks and eventually get to put the roof on. Unfortunately the lack of foundations means that the walls cabnnot bear the extra weight and the house you put so much time building collapses in a pile f rubble and rue the time that you should have spent right at the start just putting the foundations in under your house.

Quote:

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I`ll leave the exercises for what they are right know
as I didn`t found a good hand for #5 and decided to watch them vids one by one

Gotta admit to, it`s hard to change habbits. But I really need to as the game they teach is quite different from what I used to do !!

---

Why is it hard to change habits that are costing you money to ones that are making you money? The process is realizing what you are doing wrong and then you can recognize those triats in the fish and how to exploit those mistakes. This is all the start of learning how to adapt to opponents . And its done by first learning what you are doing wrong yourself.Once you have learnt that lesson then you are able to see where other people are making the same mistake that you were and from that point you can then learn about how to exploit the people making that maistake.

Quote:

---

I guessat some point I forgotten it`s all about betting money saying
"I BET I HAVE THE BEST HAND"

Done about 7000 hands
up some dollars but it flattens, probaply partly because I 15 tabled trying
to keep silverstar :)

---

What is so important about being silver star? It means nothing , its just an EGO thing. ok theres a financial benefit with each ofthe first 750 vpps earning you an extra 0.005$ the following month or $3.75. So you are playing break even poker to earn $3.75 the following month.

if you cut right back to 5 tables ad play 3 hours a day at @60 hands per hour you'll lay roughlky 900 hands per day.watch all the videos make notes on whats said and keep rewatching them , see if you can start making the same same bet sizes and foling in the same places etc when you watch them etc and start to win at 5bb/100 which you should easily far exceed. You make $.90 per day or about 27$ in the month less ~3$ for smaller vpps and loss of silverstar. and you make about 24$ per month.50$ over two months and all of a sudden you are rolled for 5NL.

which sounds the best tactic.? continuing to play 16tabes breaking even or forgetting silver star and taking time out to learn how to play properly then applying that at less tables where you have time to think and observe and make money.

Hey Keith

You are a born teacher, I must say !!

The reason I played 15 tables instead of the max. 10 or 12 is getting better at speed and game and the silver star, I know I should not play for the damn points bbut it`s show it is verry effectife advertisement :) BTW
Not only the stellar but I`ve almost got the 4500 fpp`s

Today I sucked again for a 1000 hands or so just breaking even. I decided to rewatch play vid. 1 and and play some more, started winning ugely immitiatly again :)

Here`s my graph so far

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...12-02-2011.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Doe

Hey Keith
I know I should not play for the damn points bbut it`s show it is verry effectife advertisement :) BTW

---

I thought that 'sex sells' not some little star on your screen.

Seriously, man...Keith's dead on accurate...I started in 2NL at one table then thought I'd try a few more tables, moved to 5NL running 10 tables and took a while to get to 10NL and I crashed because I wasn't paying attention...just autopiloting with horrible playing. I cut it back to 2 tables, started paying attention with my horrible playing and broke into 25NL in almost notime.

I'm still probably playing horribly but my winrate has gone through the roof after I dropped so many tables.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ath-97117.html

John Doe:


When I came across those videos posted in this thread I went through them twice, followed what that McStakin guy says to a T, and literally overnight went from a losing 2NL player to a winner. Spending the time watching them and studying them is a way better way to spend your time than losing or even breaking even...

Over the last 11,238 hands in the past 4 days I've averaged 12.29 ptbb/100.

I understand variance and that I may just be running good...but its way too much of a coincidence that I just got serious about applying what all of these guys have been saying and then started to win.


Here's a graph of a typical session (x-axis is # of hands played):

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lts-graph2.png




These guys know what they are talking about, and those 101 videos are great. Take their advice word for word.

2 more days and I should be rolled for 5NL :D

Here`s my first 10K of hands, hope this works better (from my own server).

http://www.happydude.nl/pkr/13-02-2011.gif

Does this indicates a winning player ?? over 10K at 10 + pt BB/100
The best thing is that I know I really sucked, especially in the middle where is flattens and goes up and down more. This indicates being in to manny big pots losing more then winning usually.

Here`s my stats, again hope you can read it.

http://www.happydude.nl/pkr/13-02-2011-s.gif

See anny obvious leaks ??

Have grongratulate Flop Turn River as I seem te be winning
:cool:


Then a hand, post this cause it really got me upset.
Asking myself if I got it right or not.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($1.21)
MP ($3.55)
CO ($5.51)
Hero (Button) ($2.77)
SB ($0.74)
BB ($3.63)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.18, MP raises to $0.43, Hero raises to $1.30, MP raises to $3.47 (All-In), Hero calls $1.39 (All-In)

Turn: ($5.57) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.57) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.57 | Rake: $0.27
Main pot: $5.57 between MP and Hero

Maybe I should not have called his 4-bet/shove ?? I don`t know.
It got me upset and I started to spew some !!

Manny thnx for al advice !
Cheers

I think you got your money in right, especially if villain is on a flush draw. You have him beat already and there is only a 1/3 chance he is going to hit.

The only hands that would have you beat on the flop would be a set, but we can probably rule out KK cause he only called you PF and also you are holding one of the kings. Same thing for the Ten. A set of two's seems like the only probable hand that has you beat here. I'm guessing since he won and the turn and river were diamonds that he hit a flush, so calling was def. +EV for you

Oh yeah, and posting the results of a hand is kind of frowned upon here fyi. The analysis of the hand is supposed to be of the decision process independent of the outcome.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Doe

Here`s my first 10K of hands, hope this works better (from my own server).

Does this indicates a winning player ?? over 10K at 10 + pt BB/100
The best thing is that I know I really sucked, especially in the middle where is flattens and goes up and down more. This indicates being in to manny big pots losing more then winning usually.

---

nice graph except for hands 3500->7500.

Are you sure it shows that you were in too many big pots , or just mass multitabling and having no time to think what you were doing , what your opponents could have and just betting the strength of your own hand instead of betting the strength of your own hand (and range) relative to your opponents range.

Quote:

---

Here`s my stats, again hope you can read it.

http://www.happydude.nl/pkr/13-02-2011-s.gif

See anny obvious leaks ??

---

I can see some glaring leaks . first being 17.6/11.3 . This is full ring you are playing to many junk hands to put money in with 17.6% of the hands you are deal.

You are limping too much as your gap between your VPIP and PFR is too big. The 101 vids will have you playing 10/8.

How do you play 12/7 UTG?. It means you are limping 1/3 of the time. I think the 101 vids suggest limping small PPs UTG so that you can set mine them rather than getting 3bet off them.

SB you are playing far too many hands.You are in the worst seat at the table and are calling far tom many raises.You are playing more hands from this seat than you are in the CO which is the second best seat .

BB : again calling far too many raises then being out of position for the rest of the hand.

AA hands how the fuck do you manage to not have a 100% vpip. At 2nl you can raise everytime preflop, not sure how you ever folded one of them preflop.

Quote:

---

Have grongratulate Flop Turn River as I seem te be winning
:cool:


Then a hand, post this cause it really got me upset.
Asking myself if I got it right or not.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG ($1.21)
MP ($3.55)
CO ($5.51)
Hero (Button) ($2.77)
SB ($0.74)
BB ($3.63)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10:heart:, K:heart:
1 fold, MP calls $0.02, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, MP calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) 10:spade:, 2:diamond:, K:diamond: (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.18, MP raises to $0.43, Hero raises to $1.30, MP raises to $3.47 (All-In), Hero calls $1.39 (All-In)

Turn: ($5.57) 4:diamond: (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($5.57) 3:diamond: (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $5.57 | Rake: $0.27
Main pot: $5.57 between MP and Hero

Maybe I should not have called his 4-bet/shove ?? I don`t know.
It got me upset and I started to spew some !!

Manny thnx for al advice !
Cheers

---

so looking at this hand , you said it caused you to spew but you have given no stats for him , no reads on him , not explained why you did what you did and wanted to know if you should have called his 4bet.

Lets examine what happened he limp calls pre so he could be on small pocket pairs suited connectors broadways etc no stats so can't really narrow it down any further or reads to know whether he's positionally aware , if he's fit or fold passive or agro etc.

so we get to the flop and you hit 2 pair and bet Pot. On an aside is betting pot your default play since you have now done it twice in hands you've posted. Problem comes in that if you get 3bet you lose more money when you fold and if villain folds you gain nothing by it.

You get min 3bet . What is he doing this with, with the small pocket pairs he could have done preflop action with 22 now stands out as likely and maybe TT. KK is unlikely to have limp called pre.
With his suited connectors and broadways there are now no end of straight and flush draws out there and QdJd has loads of outs against you.

Why did you 4bet to $1.30 . You have now put half your stack in the middle and are now committed to the pot.When he shoves you have now priced yourself into calling his shove. SO why 4bet ?. You are folding out a lot of the hands you beat and continuing against the hands that have a lot of equity against you. Your hand is too strong to fold and you have redraws to the nuts (any K or T)So why not call,keep the hands you beat in the pot and reevaluate on the turn.

Once the diamond comes on the turn and if he still bets strongly you can fold and move on.

Hoi Keith

Manny thnx for your (once again) great answer. Yes I tend to multitable a lot, to much in fact.
I meant I`m in to manny pots. I`m still chasing the money and not EV wich is clearly wrong.
The most stupid of it all is that I already found out all the things said in the vid. and now I`ve seen them too. Still I`m having trouble to follow. It`s all personal issues !!

About the Aces, I had to think some time about this but it has to be a hand that timed out. due to some one/thing disturbed my game. too bad :(

You do a whole lot of eplanatory in your post one thing I really want to point out is that I really must get used to the idea of playing my hands as a "range" against an aponents "range" rather then just hand vs hand. It`s an other way of thinking.

Not posting anny graph`s cause I played about 5K hands totalling 0 plus or min. Along hte way I even manged to play some out of my bankroll range (yes I suck).
I sucked some people out wich brings me to a question, and a bit of a come back to what I`ve written before. My expected all in ev line and my actual winnings differ quite a bit over time. about $ 160 now. So I had a lot of luck.

Reading trough spoons post on mathematics (great post spoon !!) all changes together should eagual 100 % so a lot bad lot should had my way some time or is not necessarily true ??

And who got hte widest difference between acual winnings and expected all in ev ?? Please let me know how much your difference is.

Have take my rest!! I`ll start playing at 6 tables a time maximum. And start watching the hud more. Also play more with stove while in the game.

Have to start meditating too I gues :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Doe

See anny obvious leaks ??

It got me upset and I started to spew some !!

---

^^^^^