is this just stupid at 2nl

i have only just sat down and get myself involved in a pot that felt right but might've been just stupid this is like hand number 5 of the session.




Full Tilt - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3:
Hero (MP): $2.00
CO: $2.97
BTN: $3.27
SB: $1.95
BB: $5.67
UTG: $6.41
UTG+1: $1.11

SB posts SB $0.01, BB posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has 6h 5h

UTG raises to $0.04, UTG+1 calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.04, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.02

Flop: ($0.17, 4 players) 5d Qs Kd
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.14, fold, fold, UTG+1 calls $0.14

my thinking is if anybody had a K or a set they would want to protect it against the flush draw/OESD so i'll have it if its free money. I get a call and i can only see it being weak draws or the guy cant semibluff and big draws are still in his range. obviously as i only have bottom pair most of his draws have more outs than he thinks.

Turn: ($0.45, 2 players) 2h
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.82 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls $0.93 and is all-in

now my thinking is this is a great card i want my bet to look like im trying to protect a big hand so if for any reason a loose pp made it through or a queen he will really want to fold. he's playing it pretty passive so i thought whilst it was a long shot he might fold his draws. i do think im winning at this point but alot of cards scare me easier to be all in right?

River: ($2.31, 2 players) 9h

so you're shipping with bottom pair because a 2 of hearts is a scare card?

UTG + 1 calls an UTG raise pre = range likely ahead of ur hand
UTG + 1 calls your flop bet on 5QK board = range likely ahead of ur hand

With a hand like this, you should have been doing nothing but trying to get to showdown as cheaply as possible, or just folding.

I would c/f the flop. When you call preflop, you're looking to flop 2 pr+ or 12+ outs. Bluffing multi-way with 6 high is not gonna turn a profit in the long run. There's alot of draws/pairs that might not bet that flop but won't fold and they're all ahead of you. Give up on the turn. Over-betting with air is really spewy, and the 2o is a horrible barrel card. If he called you otf, he's almost always calling again ott. Be patient and wait for a hand. You'd have probably stacked him with KJ, amirite?

i wouldnt be surprised if opp is on a bigger flush then hero :) anyway, yes is a bad play for any stakes, ussually you get called down by 2pairs , set, rarely by fish with flush draws, straight draws, one pair... anyway your under 25% favourite so is -EV

is that what it sounds like i said, thats not what i meant the 2h was good for me as it was such a blank even if he hit it i'm still in front. I shipped cos i thought he was only calling me with draws and not better pairs. I think the reason i shipped is because i felt that he would shove the draw if i bet 3/4 or something like that and i don't want to have to call an all in with a pair of 5s. If say he's put me on the draw and shoves back with like a pair of 9s or AQ, i'm calling with a pair of 5s? I wanted to put the maximum amount of pressure on these weak holdings. I'm repping like KQ maybe KT KJ 55 something like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kickass

is that what it sounds like i said, thats not what i meant the 2h was good for me as it was such a blank even if he hit it i'm still in front. I shipped cos i thought he was only calling me with draws and not better pairs. I think the reason i shipped is because i felt that he would shove the draw if i bet 3/4 or something like that and i don't want to have to call an all in with a pair of 5s. If say he's put me on the draw and shoves back with like a pair of 9s or AQ, i'm calling with a pair of 5s? I wanted to put the maximum amount of pressure on these weak holdings. I'm repping like KQ maybe KT KJ 55 something like that.

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*Over-analysis alert*

Just check/fold the flop in future. Avoid situations like this at 2nl.

You're not repping anything at 2NL because villain doesn't give a shit.

thanks, that hurts (first post) but thanks. maybe the fact that i was right and he had JTo has messed up my vision of how badly i played it. I was trying to use my position in the hand to win it for me, but as i had no reads on anyone at the table i shouldn't have been so quick to put UTG+1 on a draw.

Yup this is really bad and one of the best ways to fail to crush 2NL. When he calls this flop multiway he has a fuckload of Ks and even some Qs thataren't going to fold on the turn. Most of his range is stuff like Kx so fold equity here is very minimal and you're effectively just spewing money horribly.

Don't bluff stations with fairly strong ranges. Value bet against them.

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Originally Posted by kickass

get myself involved in a pot that felt right but might've been just stupid

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confirmed stupid

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

i wouldnt be surprised if opp is on a bigger flush

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i would be very surprised at this...

why not?

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

why not?

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What flush can he have

nvm. i missread someting in the post

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

nvm. i missread someting in the post

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=P

I fold this pre flop at those stakes, nothing could can come of it :)

right i cant stop thinking about this. if you all still think this is retarded after i've said this then i will be forced to believe you.
pre flop UTG raise is a min raise...when UTG+1 calls i don't put him on KK or QQ he's allowing this pot to get played multi way. (this might be me being a dumbass giving this guy respect, as people do often fail to isolate but thats my take)
flop...it gets checked to me. why? if he has a K who is checking this flop. i take a stab believing the every body wants to fold or if they have a draw like JT or low diamonds they really want the free card.
turn... what do you think can call this shove? a queen is gonna have a real hard time calling with that K on board pairs lower than that, an even harder time if he has them in his range which i don't think he really does that often. 1 combo of 55 that he's slowplaying crushes me but hard for me to put him on it. Then we've got the draws making the 2 the best card ever, his ev goes well down when such a blank hits with even the best draw JdTd i'm in front. i don't think his draw is that strong by the way because of his lack of any balls, but its possible.
what can he call me with that has me beat? 55 and like QX diamonds. whats thats 11 combos if his range include Qx x=Ato2. none of which i really put him. cos he checked the flop. Is this amount of hands that he might have, but i don't put him, on reason for me not to charge him to see the river.
I don't have any reads on the guy, this is a good reason not to get involved but look at his weak ass play even at 2nl this is weak. I find it really hard to put him on anything good. If he flipped over something huge like KK i would laugh at how much i misread the situation but he flipped JTo, i had it right. Do you guys not make these kinds of reads to see that your winning a hand with something marginal/weak, or does his massive lack of any balls not really tell me anything, should i still be putting aces, kings, queens KQ AdQd in his range.

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Originally Posted by ggpokergg

I fold this pre flop at those stakes, nothing could can come of it :)

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i think thats how i will roll in future

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Originally Posted by kickass

if he has a K who is checking this flop.

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A huge mistake at the micro's is to judge a villains actions based upon what you would do. Down load poker stove, put him on a range and run some numbers.
There have been a lot of posts recently, which open with "just sat down, no reads" and villain is taking a line the OP doesn't understand. I'm really interested to hear how others approach this. I play ABC poker against them, hit or fold. Believe them until they give you a reason not to, no FPS bs. Your br will thank you.
GL mate.

@kickass

You need to be thinking about why you call preflop. It's not because you expect to have fold equity postflop but because you have a ton of implied odds due to them being unable to fold.

In other words you expect to get someone's stack when you hit 2 pair+ or a super strong draw and they can't fold top/middle pair. 4 way on this flop bottom pair means nothing, just check back and try to showdown.

Your thought process GREAT! The arena you are using it in.......not so much.

I am with many of the other forum members since you didn't catch a big draw or 2pr you should now be looking for a way out. Pushing is not the way considering your hand, the board and the level.

A huge mistake at the micro's is to judge a villains actions based upon what you would do.

sounds like me. :(
I'm trying to use position and stop being so weak tight. using your position and being aggressive isn't something that comes naturally, lets hope i learn it sometime soon.

thanks everyone, i will definitely post more and i'll use the hand converter next time too.

calling pre is fine
remember that the biggest leak displayed at micro (all?) stakes is calling too much

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Openside

There have been a lot of posts recently, which open with "just sat down, no reads" and villain is taking a line the OP doesn't understand. I'm really interested to hear how others approach this. I play ABC poker against them, hit or fold. Believe them until they give you a reason not to, no FPS bs. Your br will thank you.
GL mate.

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assume they are like the average unknown at your stakes
at 2nl this means they are way too loose pre, too passive, call too much, and overvalue their hands.

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Originally Posted by daven

calling pre is fine
remember that the biggest leak displayed at micro (all?) stakes is calling too much

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^^
this above all else. You're not getting them to fold Qx, JJ, maybe not even A6. At least not consistently.
Then on QKx any two broadways have at least a gutshot and an ace, there's a flushdraw out there. This is a terrible spot to bluff regardless of ranges* or stakes.

*reasonable