Help me play this hand JJ - 6-max .10/.25

I haven't posted here in awhile due to work/family commitments. I have been playing some poker, mostly just yo yo style - up and down, down and up. I may have finally turned the corner after working out a few leaks and getting a few good breaks lately.

This hand from last night puzzles me though. I'd like to see some prevailing wisdom on what to do. First, this is a new table for me, the opponent is 56/22 over 9 hands. I haven't seen him 3-bet before here, so my default is to believe it's a decent hand and not a bluff. Again small sample size of course. My stats at the table were 20/17 so I wasn't being a maniac.

Here's the pre-flop action and flop. After I get a few responses, I'll continue to the turn...


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($25.17)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($22.23)
BB ($33.61)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1

My reason for calling is simple. I only have JJ here against an unknown opponent. There's basically 100 BB at stake. I could have 4-bet or pushed here, but I thought I'd play some pot control and evaluate after the flop. Bad move?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($25.17)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($22.23)
BB ($33.61)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.85) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.50, [color=#CC3333]Hero ?

I checked because I assumed he would c-bet on any flop here. Plus, once again I want to try to control the pot size. His raise would be considered pretty standard I think for a c-bet. Fold, call, or re-raise?

How did he play the other 5 hands he was involved in? Aggressive, passive?

This flop is a great one for you, so folding is out of the question on this street. Ultimately, you have to decide whether it's better to call or raise, and that depends on what you think his calling range is against a raise. If you have better than 50% equity against his calling range, it's a raise, otherwise just call.

Personally, without better reads I'd just call here.

I don't like the c/r. You can definitely get it in preflop if you want to. I'd just flat and let him have more air in his range. We obviously don't have many reads on his turn barreling but he's most likely more aggro. than most.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NightGizmo

How did he play the other 5 hands he was involved in? Aggressive, passive?

This flop is a great one for you, so folding is out of the question on this street. Ultimately, you have to decide whether it's better to call or raise, and that depends on what you think his calling range is against a raise. If you have better than 50% equity against his calling range, it's a raise, otherwise just call.

Personally, without better reads I'd just call here.

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Passive. Looking back, he had only played 3 other hands at that table. I must have picked up some hands from another table on him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

I don't like the c/r. You can definitely get it in preflop if you want to. I'd just flat and let him have more air in his range. We obviously don't have many reads on his turn barreling but he's most likely more aggro. than most.

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Why don't you like the C/R in this situation? Curious to hear your thought process. I'm not a big c/r personally and if I do it's because I want the hand over or it's a dangerous flop. Granted at this level, my c/r might be followed by the dreaded all-in bet...

That's a good reason I don't like it. Why do you want the hand over or think it's a dangerous flop? If you want the hand over then bluff but JJ is way too good to bluff here. The thing is we don't have much of a read on this guy and if he 3bets on the flop we probably have to go with it. I guess I'm more passive vs. unknowns but it allows more air to be in his range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tuuk2

Why don't you like the C/R in this situation? Curious to hear your thought process. I'm not a big c/r personally and if I do it's because I want the hand over or it's a dangerous flop. Granted at this level, my c/r might be followed by the dreaded all-in bet...

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What does he cbet with?

How much of that range does he call with on this board?

Raising most likely eliminates his air and even some TPTK type hands. So if you raise he folds most of what you beat and stays in with everything that beats you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

That's a good reason I don't like it. Why do you want the hand over or think it's a dangerous flop? If you want the hand over then bluff but JJ is way too good to bluff here. The thing is we don't have much of a read on this guy and if he 3bets on the flop we probably have to go with it. I guess I'm more passive vs. unknowns but it allows more air to be in his range.

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Well the flop is about as good as I could hope for. No flush draws, no real straight draws, except for maybe 7-8 suited... However, his 3-bet to me means a hand like A-K, A-Q, AA through 9-9 or something close. Possibly even a lower pocket pair which means he could have hit a set. I guess if I lead out here, if he's got nothing he folds. If I check, he might c-bet in which case I can build the pot up a little.

I'll be honest, I usually would lead out here because I don't normally c/r. However, this time I actually did. Here's the flop and turn action.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($25.17)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($22.23)
BB ($33.61)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.85) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.50, Hero raises to $5.50, Button calls $3

Turn: ($14.85) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero ?

Probably should have bet out more on the c/r. Maybe $6 to $7? I don't think he would have went away though.

just call on the flop ffs....what worse is he calling with other than like TT?...maybe A9s (doubtful he 3bets pre)....maybe T9s/87s(also doubtful he 3bets pre) thats like it, def not enough combos to outweigh the QQ-AA and maybe 99...


but if you thought he was calling with enough worse on the flop then he hasnt improved at all on the turn other than like 98s which is like 2 combos... so if you think your good and he has enough 9x/87/TT on the flop, then that hasnt changed too much on the turn and i would bet....but being as i think your behind his continuing to a raise range i would have just flatted the flop

Against an unknown, I'd give him a 3bet range of JJ+ AK, which gives us 40% equity at the flop. I think I'm calling this down like a fucking station, unless a K or A comes, in which case snapfoldshout. The c/r is horrible imo, now we have to c/f the turn I think, since we just took AK out of his range (unless he's a fish of course, I want to know this though).

I think you are showing you have a leak of when to bluff/when to get value. You seem to be bluffing with value hands just so that hand ends/it's easier to play. Now, sometimes it can be ok to do a few moves (b/f turn in general for example) to make it easier to play but this is not one of those times. You're literally turning your hand into a bluff if you c/r just to end the hand.

I'd suggest that instead of being scared in these spots you should do a lot of studying off the tables on figuring out what kind of ranges he has vs. different lines and figuring out the best +EV play.

Also disagree with OngBonga's 3bet range and would make it more like tuuk's. He's almost unknown but I think once he 3bets us to that size we can predict he's not a reggish player. I know we can't put too much weight into his stats but 56/22 plus the 3bet size will definitely make me think he's "different".

I think when he calls the c/r, he's got something. I haven't narrowed it down exactly, but I have a feeling it's still either trips (most likely 9s), A-K (Some people won't lay this down on a flop even when they whiff this badly), or of course AA down to 10-10 (JJ obviously not being considered). I've seen this line with trips ALOT. They'll c/c or raise/call on the flop and try to get you to bet on the turn.

With that in mind, I decided to check the turn, even though the turn card put a flush and straight draw on the board. I still don't think any straights are likely, given he'd have to have 3-bet with 10-7 or 7-5. Here's how it played out.

Turn: ($14.85) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

Does a call here seem bad? He's certainly giving me good odds as long as he doesn't have trips or an over pair. I think a re-raise is bad because I'm probably only getting called by better here and I have enough information to assume that the 8 didn't directly help him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

I think you are showing you have a leak of when to bluff/when to get value. You seem to be bluffing with value hands just so that hand ends/it's easier to play. Now, sometimes it can be ok to do a few moves (b/f turn in general for example) to make it easier to play but this is not one of those times. You're literally turning your hand into a bluff if you c/r just to end the hand.

I'd suggest that instead of being scared in these spots you should do a lot of studying off the tables on figuring out what kind of ranges he has vs. different lines and figuring out the best +EV play.

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I can accept that. If anything, it's a slight tilt. I've been burned so bad on hands like this where my over pair is beaten by another over pair that I've learned to be very cautious here. For instance, if he had re-raised my c/r all-in, I would most likely have folded.

Figure out a range for villain and stove it. Take out any AK type hands because all you know about ths guy is he's an unknown fish. With a range of 88+, A9s you have 21% equity and I think that's being generous. Let this guy fire his air at you and call down with your showdown value and make money.

As played I think you gotta fold if he bets the turn.

so your flop check-raise won't work as a bluff and it isn't for value against his calling range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by supahaole

Figure out a range for villain and stove it. Take out any AK type hands because all you know about ths guy is he's an unknown fish. With a range of 88+, A9s you have 21% equity and I think that's being generous. Let this guy fire his air at you and call down with your showdown value and make money.

As played I think you gotta fold if he bets the turn.

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So you're saying that this should be a check/call to the river? I don't have a problem necessarily with that considering that my goal is to control the pot. I can't be sure I'm ahead here, but I don't necessarily want to fold just because he's raising 1/5 the pot. I think that based on my range of him, I'm probably behind, but against an unknown opponent, there is still a chance I'm ahead.

On to the river...

River: ($21.85) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.50, Hero ?

This has to be a clear call based on the way I played the hand (correctly or incorrectly). I can't fold when I have roughly 8 to 1 odds, can I? Besides that, his bet smells pretty weak to me. If he had it, he would have pushed by now...

Nice call. Is you username on stars tuuk2?

Yeah my range might be bad, I'm still trying to get the hang of it. I guess I'm just a bit more cautious against an unknown. Maybe I'd add AQ to his range, maybe TT, but without notes or better stats I think that's as wide as I'd go. With these hands in mind, that's why I station this to showdown.

Really that turn call sucks more than the flop c/r in my insignificant opinion.

River jack?

Oops too slow.

Hero, why am I still in this pot? Meh!?!?! Gotta shove now surely? This sucks.

And for those who must know. The results...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($25.17)
Button ($24.25)
SB ($22.23)
BB ($33.61)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
Hero bets $0.75, Button raises to $1.75, 2 folds, Hero calls $1

Flop: ($3.85) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $2.50, Hero raises to $5.50, Button calls $3

Turn: ($14.85) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

River: ($21.85) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $3.50, Hero calls $3.50

Total pot: $28.85 | Rake: $1

Results:
Button had 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (two pair, tens and sixes).
Hero had Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (two pair, Jacks and sixes).
Outcome: Hero won $27.85

I'm glad I won this hand obviously, but I was never confident about it. I think he could have easily had QQ or higher here most times. If he had raised a larger amount at any time, I would have had to fold. But his turn and river raises were too small. I just couldn't fold. Of course, if I push all-in pre, I might have induced a call, but JJ to me is iffy in that situation.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll probably be posting some more hands pretty soon. I'm trying to get in more time at the tables, and I'm trying to get better in the process.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Nice call. Is you username on stars tuuk2?

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Yep.

I had a feeling he was going to have tens, like the once in fifteen times that your jacks win against his range. Ok I'm being unfair here, I know shit, I'm just brain spewing for fun. Like I say, I station this down, so I don't lose a pot, but it's not as big as this one. I'm not gonna come and look for you, I don't want to look stupid when I stack off to you. nh

I wouldn't post results anymore. It doesn't matter. You can get a better feel for ranges though by seeing what he had.

About what you said preflop. I wouldn't just push preflop, I'd 4bet really small. JJ is most likely +EV in this situation to get it in. It may be near the lower end but it should be +EV with most likely a wider "getting it in preflop" range.

Keep posting hands and hope you continue to participate. Good luck!

I 4-bet/get it in pre with JJ here most of the time when we are OOP vs. an active BTN.

lol we have 9 hands, loads of guys with these sort of stats will 3 bet very rarely as a bluff. Call pre is totally fine and standard, I'd c/c flop and c/f turn to a decent sized bet, obv call this and eval river.

The 3bet size is very fishy. I mean getting it in preflop is most likely +EV, depends on what kind of ranges you predict. Agree that calling pre is probably better though.

Does nobody lead out on this flop? He's got tons of AK/AQ in his range, why let him draw for free?

No, I prefer to let AQ/AK spew. So long as these hands are in his range, calling down is not terrible. But as soon as we remove these hands, perhaps by leading out at the flop, or c/r the flop, we beat one hand in his likely continuing range. Station it so TT, AK and AQ pay for the times you run into QQ+. TT alone isn't going to do this.

daviddem, if you lead out on this flop, how do you respond to a raise?

Well if he raises, given that he is passive and he probably doesn't bluff with AK/AQ after we called the 3b and donk the flop, then his range is TT+ and sets, so gotta fold, right? Seems cheaper than calling all the way when he has us beat.

Since he seems loose passive, he may very well call the donk bet with AK or AQ.

If I was him and I am holding AK or AQ, facing a check on the flop, it really depends who I have in front of me, but I would seriously consider taking the free card. My opp just showed strength by calling a 3b OOP, I am holding blockers to him having high cards type of hands, so it is not at all unlikely that he has me beat right now with a medium pair. If I cbet, he continues with a large part of his range (this is opp dependant) and I have just built a huge pot with a weak hand. I would tend to cbet more against super nits who fold too much, but even then, a super nit who calls a 3b OOP worries me a lot.

edit: note that I am skewed towards 2nl/5nl, where it is often correct to play straighforwardly. Things may very well be different at 25nl.

If we check and he checks behind then great too. We just lead out turn/river on non-A/K/Q boards.

I'm skewed towards 5nl and lower too. Thing is, if he checks his AK, what does that tell you about his hand? That he has AK or AQ. He's not 3betting pre flop and then checking TT+ on this flop, so if he checks, we know we're good. If I 3bet AK and it's checked over to me, I'm always c-betting. Maybe not the turn, it becomes a lot more situational from here. I expect his entire 3betting range to bet the flop. By leading out, we're giving him the chance to fold AK and AQ instead of betting them. I'm never calling AK to a rags flop bet after 3betting, but I might raise it, because the bet looks like a vulnerable pair, and since I 3bet, I can easily rep the monster pair. You say you fold you JJ to a raise? Of course, that's probably why I don't bet it, because I would fold to raise too unless this guy was showing down idiotic moves. I don't want him to fold AK and AQ, I want him to bet them, because a lot of the time we're paying him off when he has QQ+ and we station off a % of our stack. Only by letting AK and AQ spew can I see that we're making money against his 3bet range.

Yeah for sure when we b/f to his QQ+, it saves more money than if we station, but we're not making money off his AK and AQ, which he's more likely to have. I can't see that we're expecting any return on the flop bet, if he calls we look like we're in trouble, if he raises we know we're in trouble, so we're betting to induce a fold. That's a bluff. Where's the value? What does he continue with that's worse? TT only. If we know he's fishy and can't fold AK, then yeah there's tons of value, but I'm assuming he either folds or raises AK, which makes a flop bet look really bad.

c/c to showdown is the only way I can see we're getting the required value off AQ and AK needed to show a profit against his 3bet range when we don't flop a set. Leading out the flop (or c/r) only serves to win us the dead money or spew off more chips apart from the rare occasion he has TT. That's my opinion anyway. Anyone else got thoughts on this?

I agree that for a flop bet to be worth anything, you have to have a read that the guy is likely to call with AK/AQ. Much more common at 2/5nl than 25nl I guess.

I think that what bothers me with the check/call approach is that if he is aggro and he is capable of two-barreling with AK or lower pairs, we're also in trouble. What do we do if he pots the flop, we call, check a blank turn and he fires a 3/4 PSB again? Keep calling?

This being said, again, I totally agree that if a flop bet is unlikely to get value out of AK, then there is no point making it. But then kmind, if he checks behind on the flop, what are we trying to do with a lead out on the turn? Is he not just as unlikely to call this turn bet with his AK as he was to call it on the flop?

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Originally Posted by daviddem

I agree that for a flop bet to be worth anything, you have to have a read that the guy is likely to call with AK/AQ. Much more common at 2/5nl than 25nl I guess.

I think that what bothers me with the check/call approach is that if he is aggro and he is capable of two-barreling with AK or lower pairs, we're also in trouble. What do we do if he pots the flop, we call, check a blank turn and he fires a 3/4 PSB again? Keep calling?

This being said, again, I totally agree that if a flop bet is unlikely to get value out of AK, then there is no point making it. But then kmind, if he checks behind on the flop, what are we trying to do with a lead out on the turn? Is he not just as unlikely to call this turn bet with his AK as he was to call it on the flop?

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I agree with this one

do not stackoff pre

do not c/r flop

c/c and then re-eval turn based on sizing.

I do a lot of calling in this hand, bare in mind that most of your decisions in this hand should be made preflop.

I don't think I would've tried to control the pot PF. I personally would've liked to see you 3bet with a JJ. I would've then cbet on the flop if he called. As for the situation here, I think it's just a check.

Even with the results I think you are smoked too many times by his 3 barrel range for your call to be profitable. I don't understand why people play guessing games with unknown players.

"I don't understand why people play guessing games with unknown players."

Isn't range assinging against an unknown just guessing?

Although having said that, I can see your point about "guessing" he'd fire more than once with AK. I think we need reads to call a second bet. I think I'm rearing my ugly 2nl head tbh, at 2nl you can be safe in assuming that AK does indeed bet more than the flop a lot of the time, so calling jacks down is quite profitable at 2nl. Of course, 25nl is a different ballgame, and I'm suprised to see someone badly overplay tens if I'm honest.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

do not stackoff pre

do not c/r flop

c/c and then re-eval turn based on sizing.

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Very hard to take this line and fold turn to a guy who has played 5/9 of the last hands and raised 2 of them. I think you have to call down if you're going to call PF and flop. I really don't think calling pre and flop then folding the turn is better than a 4-bet pre.

i said check call flop, then re-evaluate the turn - we don't even know what the turn is! i can't just tell op to call every turn and every river. sizing/timing is also important, again we don't know this we haven't seen a turn yet.

just because you might have to fold sometimes post flop doesn't automatically make 4betting pre a better option.