10nl KK in LP vs limp/3bettor

i'm sure you guys are probably sick of me posting hands like this but it's not an uncommon scenario to have to deal with at the micros, and the fact that i want to post this hand tells me that i have some holes in my thinking process as it relates to these spots.

villain here is 26/9 over 40ish. not many of the regs bother with limp/3betting so most of the people we'll encounter do it will be relatively "unknowns". i'm basically interested in forming a plan here. as best i can see it, there are 3 options based on what we think villain's range is and how he plays it. the options are:

A - flat the 3bet and setmine our KK with great implied odds (implication being villain's range = AA exclusively)

B - 4bet/fold (implication being villain is limp/3betting/calling a 4bet with QQ+,AKs or weaker, and only ever 5bets AA)

C - 4bet/call (implication being that villain limp/3bets/5bets a range of QQ+,AKs or weaker (we have 52% vs this range and thus can 4bet/call for value against it)

note: assume here that in option C "4bet/call" means "4bet/call if he shoves" or "4bet/6bet jam if he 5bets" because once he 5bets, the money's pretty much going in. i mean if he's limp/3bet/5bet/folding at 10nl, he's got some real problems.

anyway here's our hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
BB ($20.79)
UTG ($30.45)
UTG+1 ($52.34)
MP1 ($23.15)
MP2 ($29.65)
CO ($19.87)
Hero (Button) ($25.75)
SB ($25)
Preflop: Hero is Button with K:heart:, K:spade:
UTG calls $0.10, 4 folds, Hero bets $0.60, 2 folds, UTG raises to $1.60,


i guess what i'd like to hear opinions about are:
- are my plans solid based on their assumptions of villain's ranges/tendencies?
- if my plans are solid based on how we think villain plays his range, which plan are we opting for? ie which do we think is most representative of this villain?
- are there any other options i should consider?

thanks

I think your decision should be based on reads of previous hands. Is he doing this here because he is tired of being pushed around? Any badbeats or showdownst? Is he aware of position? Is the table ultra-agressive?

Given the lack of reads and the fact that effective stacks are 250BBs, I would flat call and play with position. Either he is tilted or he is very confident about his hand. 4 bet-fold is not a bad idea though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raoni_Poker

I think your decision should be based on reads of previous hands. Is he doing this here because he is tired of being pushed around? Any badbeats or showdownst? Is he aware of position? Is the table ultra-agressive?

Given the lack of reads and the fact that effective stacks are 250BBs, I would flat call and play with position. Either he is tilted or he is very confident about his hand. 4 bet-fold is not a bad idea though.

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4bet folding w/KK without reads here is horrible

1) Seems fine though we aren't just set mining as villein's range is never AA only, also we can flat a lot more hands here because of his sizing and stacks (98s, 33 etc).

2) 4bet/folding KK sucks as we lose our implied odds that we have vs AA and we give up playing a 3bet pot in position if he 4bets.

3) I'd prefer him to be more loose/aggro to 4bet/call 250BB deep, though it's never going to be a huge mistake with KK. 100BB deep I'd be fine getting it in pre.

There is no point IMHO in 4 betting here and not folding to a 5 bet. What is his range of limp/3 bet/5 bet UTG here? When we 4 bet in this spot, we're expecting some fold equity or a call from worse hands. if we don't have this, he would not raise with a worse hand than ours.

He would not 5 bet here with KK-QQ or AK.

Flat calling is by far the best choice (as I mentioned in a previous post), but a 4 bet would define better his hand and it could avoid you to get into uglier spots (if you fold to a 5 bet).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raoni_Poker

There is no point IMHO in 4 betting here and not folding to a 5 bet. What is his range of limp/3 bet/5 bet UTG here? When we 4 bet in this spot, we're expecting some fold equity or a call from worse hands. if we don't have this, he would not raise with a worse hand than ours.

He would not 5 bet here with KK-QQ or AK.

Flat calling is by far the best choice (as I mentioned in a previous post), but a 4 bet would define better his hand and it could avoid you to get into uglier spots (if you fold to a 5 bet).

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Right I disagree that he's only 5bet shoving with AA, he probably plays QQ+, AK as the nuts here. Most of the time he is 5bet shoving with his entire range (which maybe includes a small % of spaz outs) so folding KK is wrong.

4betting to define his hand (for info) isn't really a reason to 4bet, we know his range is mainly nut hands so can flat good SC's and PP's since we have good implied odds.

Thinking about it some more 4bet/calling KK+ here is probably bettter than flatting with those hands.

Either is better than 4bet/folding Kang & Kang. :(

I'd probably safely include 88+ for his range here since they love putting you on AK and don't mind a coinflip. The number of times I've been faced with the situation and have been called by JJ and worse by far outweigh the times where he showed up w/AA.

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Originally Posted by deucesomething

I'd probably safely include 88+ for his range here since they love putting you on AK and don't mind a coinflip. The number of times I've been faced with the situation and have been called by JJ and worse by far outweigh the times where he showed up w/AA.

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yea idk about 88, i would probably agree with as low as 99 though. Although idk about this being in his 5betjam/5bet/call 6betshove range but i definitely would include it in his limp/3bet/call 4bet range ...also id add half the combos of JJ to the 5betjam/ect range

bump cuz i wanna hear more people's opinion on this

Seems like an easy call and re-eval for me.

We can either

1) make a clearly +EV decision (though maybe not the most +EV) no matter what his range is (ie calling)

2) or 4bet without having any kind of plan for what hes gonna do...nor anticipate what he will do. It isnt clear if the decision we make is +EV, we're prone to making lots of costly mistakes, and our opponent can play/react perfectly (even for a fish, he sees a 4bet and drools with AA and shits his pants with JJ) .

Seems like scared money advice i guess...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deucesomething

I'd probably safely include 88+ for his range here since they love putting you on AK and don't mind a coinflip. The number of times I've been faced with the situation and have been called by JJ and worse by far outweigh the times where he showed up w/AA.

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I'd rather have some evidence of aggressive tendencies from a 26/9 player before I add 88 to his range
Calling has to be best with stacks like these

hero calls
you're 300bb deep, so 4b folding can be ok, but...
oh, and

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Originally Posted by JKDS

Seems like an easy call and re-eval for me.

We can either

1) make a clearly +EV decision (though maybe not the most +EV) no matter what his range is (ie calling)

2) or 4bet without having any kind of plan for what hes gonna do...nor anticipate what he will do. It isnt clear if the decision we make is +EV, we're prone to making lots of costly mistakes, and our opponent can play/react perfectly (even for a fish, he sees a 4bet and drools with AA and shits his pants with JJ) .

Seems like scared money advice i guess...

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thanks for the input thus far, guys. the implicit assumption i'm sure you all have is that i posted this hand because i lost 250bb as a result. correct. my logic was something like this:

- while this is often a bad player's attempt to be sneaky and get action on AA, i have definitely seen people do this with AK, QQ and even JJ (villain is an unknown so i'm treating him like an average of how i have seen 10nl randoms play)
- if his range is JJ+,AK (or even QQ+,AK), which is highly possible, he isn't going to just limp/3bet/fold that range because the whole reason he decided to limp/3bet was because he thinks he's got the nuts.
- seeing as i have >50% equity versus that range, and it isnt folding, i can definitely 4bet for value against it, this will make it easier to get in easier postflop on certain low flops, and also it goes to the core concept of value betting which is having opponents put more money in the pot when their range is strong but my particular hand has a positive expectation against that range.

he snap-jammed and i needed about 40% to call, and i levelled myself into calling. that's irrelevant though, i knew it was a bad call. but i was determined to benefit from it by picking apart my plan/thought process which lead to me being in such a stupid spot, posting it here for criticism etc. and improving as a result. that's why this hand was posted as a choice between 3 different plans of attack and their justifications (his ranges/tendencies). i honestly felt like i was losing value by not 4betting. it seemed like EV going begging when he isn't folding any QQ+,AK and i have positive expectation against it. however it seems that (especially given the risk of me levelling myself into calling a 5bet) the marginal EV gained (if there is any at all) by 4betting is worth sacrificing for the certain +EV play which is calling, thus giving me the benefits of
A - keeping his range as wide as it can be after he 3bets
B - setmining against his AA with good implied odds

i think JKDS summed it up in his second point:

"2) or 4bet without having any kind of plan for what hes gonna do...nor anticipate what he will do. It isnt clear if the decision we make is +EV, we're prone to making lots of costly mistakes, and our opponent can play/react perfectly (even for a fish, he sees a 4bet and drools with AA and shits his pants with JJ)"

oh and by the way the "scared money" disclaimer in your post did cross my mind during the hand, something to the tune of "to not 4bet against a range i have +EV against just because we are 250bb deep and the variance will likely be high is just like playing on scared money".

hopefully this doesn't deaden the discussion, if it isn't already exhausted, because the results are honestly irrelevant (obviously i fucked up and deviated from my chosen plan) - i'm interested in being better able to form a plan and hopefully taking the path of highest EV in these spots in the future.

Agree with most of your post rpm except this bit.

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Originally Posted by rpm

he snap-jammed and i needed about 40% to call, and i levelled myself into calling. that's irrelevant though, i knew it was a bad call.

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It's really not a bad call even 250BB deep, you'd need very specific reads on him to even consider folding this. I think his limp/3bet/5bet shove range is QQ+ and that's being conservative, so it's a call once you've 4bet.

Thinking about how we play the rest of our range QQ-22 we are flatting to setmine though not auto folding QQ/JJ on low boards, suited connectors can be played for implied odds as well. IMO it's fine to be unbalanced and 4bet AA only vs him.

i don't know, hoopy. 250bb deep i don't see many people limp/3bet/5bet KK (which i block 5/6 possibilities for anyway). most people seem to limit it to AA due to fear of limping KK and then seeing a limped flop with an ace on it, whereas most fish see AA as the nuts on any board against any opponent

set mine