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I know this all depends on a lot of things (reads, board texture, etc.), but under what circumstances do you fire a second barrel on the turn after you raise preflop from the button, miss the flop, opp checks, you c-bet and get called? Do you normally just give up if opp checks again or do you normally fire again?
in general i don't fire again. but if i feel that a 2nd barrel will get a fold for some reason, then i will fire again.
for example, if opp checks flop and then calls your cbet quickly - you may think there is a good chance he is drawing. if he then checks his draw on the turn and misses and you think there is a good chance he'll fold to a psb. then 2nd barrel.
if you think a player is playing back at you too much and calling with you with 2nd and 3rd pair on the flop then i also make the occasinoal 2nd barrel against this player (as long he isn't playing back so much that he will also call a turn bet).
if you have seen your opponent try to float you oop. ie checkcall flop, checkcheck turn and then bet river with anything - then i would 2nd barrel that player more than often too.
as you said though, 2nd barreling is soooo player/read specific.
I've had decent success with these (didn't do it often though). What I need is weak opponent that has already shown to be capable of giving up when faced with BIG bet. And perfect board will be K or Q, rag, rag (but NOT A high - if they call that I give up immediately). Also timing is important: if weak player hesitates a little before calling cbet, it's clear he's weak and ripe for picking. When I bet the turn I do it strong - pot size, no less - I want him to fold.
Last time I did this on K-high board my opponent (weak and very careful) gave up and typed in chat box: 'he put me on draw', meaning he had top pair but was afraid of my kicker crushing him and justified my strong betting with protecting against draw (I had missed AQ).
Overcards hitting the turn are good for second barreling. Also, if the flop is drawy and low and the turn is a blank I sometimes second barrel, repping an overpair that doesn't want to give a draw a free card.
Sheetah: Pot-sized second barrels are unnecessary in my experience. And they have to work a lot more often than a 2/3-pot bet to be +EV.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Yes, I understand the math behind this. Maybe it's just combo of my image and lower stakes players (NL10/NL25).
I usually do this after winning big pots with strong betting and showing a monster. And lower players are more likely to be intrigued by less then pot size bet hoping you're bluffing are more likely to be really scared of strong pot sized bet. I guess it's exactly the opposite little higher.
Not an exact quote but you get the gist, It's in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE T&P
At 50NL 6m FTP I find people call the flop with nothing all the time, so you have to fire again; ironically ESPECIALLY when you have nothing.
Obv. it helps to know your opponent - but often times the only way to learn this is to fire a second barrell and get to a showdown.
"2nd barrel became the new c-bet these days" - Fnord
Nice posts and nice topic.
I'm squeaky tight (vpip around 14) but often fire 2nd barrels, sometimes third barrels. Folding out best hand in medium/big pot = ++EV.
My 2 cents:
Try to convince an opponent, that he'll go broke if he continues. In 100BB stacks, second barrels in raised pots are often pressure bets of the hand. You try to tell the story "I want to get it AI as soon as possible". Your bet must be scary in "I want to destack you" way.
There are some board textures, where not many hands can stand pressure against your image+representation.
Classic scenario of 2nd barrel:
- AK with flopped gutshot and blank on turn. If you play against aware player, you'll fold out top pairs and worse. Your 2nd barrel represent AA,KK, set, top two, TPTK at worst.
- Rags + broadway on turn - the possibility that you turned set or TPTK at least (and you ain't going anywhere with it) . But to maintain betting consistency and earn fold equity in this spot, you can't check turned tptk's for "pot control" too often. Bet set, TPTK, overpairs and air. If you get raised, look him up sometimes with AA/KK.
It would be nice, if some veterans post some of their 2nd barrels (successful or not) and help low stakes nits to grow some cajones...
Just a couple from yesterday...
Villains tend not to believe c-bets on boards like this, but will fold everything but Q's and maybe AT+ to a second barrel.
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $347.40
UTG+1: $731.80
CO: $325.40
Hero: $416
SB: $771.90
BB: $405
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with 8 :club: 7 :spade:
3 folds, Hero raises to $16, SB folds, BB calls.
Flop: Q :spade: A :heart: Q :diamond: ($34, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $28, BB calls.
Turn: 6 :diamond: ($90, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $64, BB folds.
And then if they don't believe your second barrel and try to steal the pot with a pussy minraise... :)
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $1/$2 - 6 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $420
Hero: $197
CO: $54.25
Button: $360.20
SB: $510.95
BB: $80
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with 4 :diamond: 4 :heart:
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, CO folds, Button calls, 2 folds.
Flop: K :club: J :heart: K :diamond: ($19, 2 players)
Hero bets $15, Button calls.
Turn: 5 :spade: ($49, 2 players)
Hero bets $35, Button raises to $70, Hero raises all-in $174, Button folds.
Hand 2 is soo sicko in Phil Ivey way. On stakes I play, it's insta-call by J4o :)
Nice plays Zook. Couple of questions regarding how u decided to bet these:Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Hand 1.)
I play at 100 NL, and I have learned at that level its futile to try to push people whom you don't have very good reads on off of top pair in spots like this, because people simply can't/don't fold (This is great for value bets, not so much for bluffing in spots like this). So did u fire here because u thought he was floating with air, or can u push most opp. off top pair/mediocre-poor kicker more readily at 400 NL in this spot. Did you have a read on the opponent that led u to betting out here? If he calls you quickly here and u put him on a weak ace how often are u betting/pushing river?
Hand 2.)
Hand 1 was a nice play, but Hand 2 I'm extremely impressed with (assuming the plays u make like this are successful a high percentage of the time). At least at 100 NL, when somebody calls u on the flop and miniraises u on the turn its a vast majority of the time (at least it would seem to me) a donk broadcasting to the world that he hit trips and wants to milk the hand for every penny he can get. I realize this is 6-max, so plays like this are more common. Was there a particular read u had on you opponent that made u think ur opponent was repping here and wasn't sitting on trips? If my opponent makes this play on the flop I might be more inclined to think it is a steal, but on the turn after calling on the flop and now miniraising, this seems like a strong play by the opponent. So what led u to make this play, and how do u determine when it is a donk with trips versus a bluff here by you opp.
I look forward to your insight.
I didn't have a good read on villain in this hand. He was running 33/10/2 over ~100 hands but I'd only been at the table for a few orbits. I'd raised pre-flop and c-bet him HU once before and he folded. From his stats alone and the fact I didn't have many datamined hands on him, I figured he wasn't a regular and wasn't particularly strong. Strong players in this game generally have stats in the range of 18/14 to 24/20. The reason I second-barreled here is b/c this is the kind of flop people don't tend to believe c-bets on. When he c/c'ed my c-bet I put him on Ax/Qx/JJ-88(lower?). I second barreled b/c I thought he would fold weak aces (<A8 maybe?) and the pocket pairs, which make up the majority of his range. Maybe folding weak aces here is difference between 100nl and 400nl. If he flat calls my second barrel, I'm giving up the river. I might be able to push him off an ace with a river shove, but I don't know enough about this guy to risk my stack doing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrAdam5
Here I had a better read. Villain was a lagg, 40/16/3.6 over ~200 hands. I'd seen him float and steal before (although by betting when checked to on the turn not by minraising) and 3-bet pre-flop a few times (with?) but I hadn't seen him showdown any big bluffs. Most importantly, I'd been playing tight at this table and hadn't showndown any bluffs or made big bets and then folded. After he calls my c-bet his range is wide, KQ-KT/maybe Kxs/AJ/QJ/JT/QT/TT-88/air. The turn minraise just looks really suspicious to me... I think a K is worried about AK and a good player realizes that raising with a hand like KT allows me to play perfectly by folding worse and calling/raising better (unless he's really leveling me and thinks I'll push with worse over his minraise, if so gg). So in my mind, this minraise only made sense as a bluff or a monster (JJ/KJ/55) and I decided a bluff made up much a bigger part of his range. It's also possible (but unlikely) that I got him to fold a weak K.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrAdam5
Make sense? Looking back, the second hand was a bit of an instinct play and may have been spewy. It's hard not to be results-oriented. I don't make this kind of play very often, but I think when you have a read that a tricky, aggressive player is making a move on you, the board is scary and you have a solid image, you should occasionally make plays like this.
They definitely don't always work. Here's one from last night vs. a solid, tricky tagg regular (20/15/2.8) where I shouldn't have bet the river b/c my line looks way too stealy in a blind battle and a good player could look me up with a wide range.
Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Holdem Ring game - Blinds: $2/$4 - 6 players - Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $229.70
UTG+1: $54.60
CO: $189.50
Button: $86.35
SB: $872.80
Hero: $491.80
Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with Q :heart: 6 :heart:
4 folds, SB raises to $14, Hero calls.
Flop: T :diamond: 7 :heart: 6 :club: ($28, 2 players)
SB bets $22, Hero calls.
Turn: T :heart: ($72, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $50, SB calls.
River: A :club: ($172, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $120, SB calls.
Results:
Final pot: $412
SB showed 9h Tc
Hero showed Qh 6h