Werewolf: To The Edge

This setup was insanely inbalanced IMO. I think the turncoat needs more to do, like be an opposition to the seer, maybe he gets to hide the identity of 2 players per night.

Once the villagers got Mex, it was essentially over. Think about: Ong mislynched. Eric made IMO a really bad nom of Rong, who would have been a great lynch candidate if he lived the night. From that point it was like 90%+ that villagers would win. If Eric had nommed SDM, it might have been a bit closer, but still tough.

Wuf, I think I broke the wolf chat typing over and over to myself, but I was apologizing to you in there because I was like, "I KNOW Wuf expects me to figure it out, but I just can't."

Oh don't worry, the closest I got to finding a wolf was nearly accidentally lynching one

As I said, Daven's range was way too fucking wide to do anything but tread cautiously around him. I actually thought he was a great TC candidate and I think I made a half-ass attempt to signal to him. I don't know if he picked up on that or suspected me. Obviously people suspected I was the TC at several points.

But then I realized that Daven was probably giving off fake TC tells.

I think Big Red is the vig. I was going to fake out as vig in a mass claim, because, obviously the wolf MUST claim vanilla. And hope that Big Red was so AFK he wouldn't notice.

OH Jesus, that's so sick that you weren't even going to reach out to me. HAHAHAHHAHAHA

0% chance of win.

There's a possibility I was going to flip a coin

BTW I love this game. I had a fucking blast. I can't imagine how much fun it'd be if I thought I had a chance to win.

Let's do another one.

Originally Posted by baudib

I used my TC powers to block Wuf's obvious seer powers.

No, I'm the wolf actually, because Baudwolf is almost like Beowulf.

In hindsight what do you think of this post I made? LOL

Originally Posted by baudib

In hindsight what do you think of this post I made? LOL

I didn't think anything of it at the time because I wasn't trying to examine anything then. If SDM had died I may have caught it when going back over everything to see who to reach out to. But for future reference, that sort of thing will get you in trouble. If the intended can see it, anybody else looking for it can too

I was actually just trying to use this as generic cover. I was trying to think of things to do that a wolf generally wouldn't do. I think I said the vig should shoot me once, too.

I didn't spend much time trying to signal to the TC, I will have to go back and look but I tried to make an ambiguous post to Daven thinking it was him. But Daven gave me such a creepy feeling that I thought he was the seer and I didn't want him to look at me too much, so I gave up on that.

Originally Posted by baudib

Daven gave me such a creepy feeling

We all get that

Originally Posted by baudib

BTW I love this game. I had a fucking blast. I can't imagine how much fun it'd be if I thought I had a chance to win.

Let's do another one.

We do these about every 3 or 4 months. I'm happy you enjoyed it. Good game.

Thanks SDM. I can't believe you managed to out with 3 living villagers. Sick.

Another problem with the turncoat: I ran the risk of eating him.

I searched around the web for player numbers for a game this size and it was a 50/50 split between 2 and 3 wolves. So I went with 2 and a turncoat. I agree limiting the seer somehow, like every other night lookups, would improve things.

gg all
thanks for modding rilla
i don't think the game was necessarily any more or less imbalanced than normal

Originally Posted by daven

gg all
thanks for modding rilla
i don't think the game was necessarily any more or less imbalanced than normal

The vig not shooting hurt the village since it gave the wolves a higher percentage of noms. Any time a seer can cinch it up on Day 4, it's very imba. The earliest the seer should be able to cinch is Day 7, which means it should never happen in games that don't have huge pools. The only two things I did as a turncoat was get Ong killed and get myself looking like a villager, despite having tried to do a lot more. I probably hurt the wolves more than I helped due to inadvertently giving the Huber wagon steam.

As a rule of thumb, anytime there are more specials than wolves, the game favors the village. From the very beginning, I thought the wolves were going to lose, partly because of the mechanics, and partly because I realized how weak and problematic my own role was.

I think balancing this version would involve making the seer only work on the first two nights, there's no vig, and the turncoat is the traditional kind, where he and the wolves dont know who the other is, but if the wolves nom him, he becomes a wolf

Originally Posted by wufwugy

The vig not shooting hurt the village since it gave the wolves a higher percentage of noms.

lol, we disagree

Originally Posted by wufwugy

Any time a seer can cinch it up on Day 4, it's very imba. The earliest the seer should be able to cinch is Day 7,

lol, we disagree again. e.g. in a thirteen player game with three wolves, where the seer looks up a wolf each of the first three nights the game is guaranteed imba?!?

Originally Posted by wufwugy

The only two things I did as a turncoat was get Ong killed and get myself looking like a villager, despite having tried to do a lot more. I probably hurt the wolves more than I helped due to inadvertently giving the Huber wagon steam.

you also fake-outed when you (i.e. the wolves) were still in with a chance. If you had survived the day and then ended up switching over then we would have had to start over to find the wolf.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

As a rule of thumb, anytime there are more specials than wolves, the game favors the village.

ong talks about the vig being viewed by many as a pro-wolf role. So depends on the specials i imagine.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I think balancing this version would involve making the seer only work on the first two nights, there's no vig, and the turncoat is the traditional kind, where he and the wolves dont know who the other is, but if the wolves nom him, he becomes a wolf

results orientated. The fact that none of the seer's lookups got nommed or lynched is clouding your thinking. The fact that the vig didn't cause a village bloodbath too. The turncoat as setup in this game is an immensely powerful wolf in endgame. Turncoats role until late-game here should be to avoid being lynched or nommed, i was at least in part hoping for an endgame situation involving me, the wolf, and the un-converted turncoat. Cos then I would have had to fakeclaim as wolf to win the game for the village - that one messes with the head huh

but we disagree 100% on everything in werewolf strategy as far as i can tell - so, meh, cats can get relieved of their coats all kinda ways.

TC not a wolf Daven. Game was over after SDM's outing and his godmode list. If you can see a scenario where I could have won from that point I'd love to hear it.

There was a point where I was actively hoping for the vig to start firing. Hoopy would have been a good vig target. Problem was at that point there was no better candidate to lynch. If Rong had survived it may have been a totally different game.

Originally Posted by daven

lol, we disagree again. e.g. in a thirteen player game with three wolves, where the seer looks up a wolf each of the first three nights the game is guaranteed imba?!?

Yes. Always. Make me a wolf and tell me I have to kill the seer by Day 4 and I'll lose the majority of the time. It's at least as hard to find specials as it is to find wolves. Without specials, the village doesn't stand a chance. The point for having specials is to simply even out the game. If specials ever cinch it up, it means they were likely too powerful, and the earlier the cinch, the more over-powered they were.

At most, I think the seer should be able to confirm a couple villagers or find a couple wolves, then the village has to get the rest of it done.

you also fake-outed when you (i.e. the wolves) were still in with a chance. If you had survived the day and then ended up switching over then we would have had to start over to find the wolf.

I don't think we had a chance. The only time a fakeout beats a realout is if the realout is BID or somebody who can't make his case. I knew that all SDM had to do was put the pedal to the metal, and you guys would see the million problems with my claim.

ong talks about the vig being viewed by many as a pro-wolf role. So depends on the specials i imagine.

I think it's pro-village because it's a villager trying to find baddies. Look at it this way: the Ong lynch day was in totality an anti-village day. I was purposely trying to discredit and get rid of the most active villager (who was saying a lot of accurate things) while making myself look like a strong candidate for villager at the same time. It worked. Decent wolves can do that sort of thing quite a bit. A vig partly takes the ability to direct kills out of the hands of the wolves

results orientated. The fact that none of the seer's lookups got nommed or lynched is clouding your thinking. The fact that the vig didn't cause a village bloodbath too. The turncoat as setup in this game is an immensely powerful wolf in endgame. Turncoats role until late-game here should be to avoid being lynched or nommed, i was at least in part hoping for an endgame situation involving me, the wolf, and the un-converted turncoat. Cos then I would have had to fakeclaim as wolf to win the game for the village - that one messes with the head huh

FWIW I thought we were doomed from the very first day.

Vig can hurt the village but if vig survives to end game he's possibly more powerful than the seer.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I don't think we had a chance. The only time a fakeout beats a realout is if the realout is BID or somebody who can't make his case. I knew that all SDM had to do was put the pedal to the metal, and you guys would see the million problems with my claim.

the fakeout approach is about one thing, and that is giving YOUR TEAM a chance to win. SDM had shown that the wolf was in baudib/me/you. At this point the only chance for a wolf win is the true wolf fake-outing, the seer getting lynched, and the turncoat then being incredibly well hidden next game day. The turncoat fake outing in this specific spot is lol-bad because he's going to die that day or that night, and next day we know among which small pool of players (in this spot you knew there would be max two remaining for the village to find and choose the wolf from) the true wolf is hiding. When turncoat fake outs in this spot then even if the village lynches sdm the wolves lose - the only player who knew this for sure was you though.

if baudib had fake-outed then i think the village lynches sdm. Then you can convert and be well hidden as last wolf and at least stay in with some chance of getting there.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I think it's pro-village because it's a villager trying to find baddies.

re vig being pro-village, maybe, pros and cons. I'll keep out of this one and leave it to you and ong to disagree on i guess

Originally Posted by baudib

TC not a wolf Daven. Game was over after SDM's outing and his godmode list. If you can see a scenario where I could have won from that point I'd love to hear it.

wuf doesn't fake out. You fakeout and do what you can to get sdm lynched. Wuf converts overnight, you die overnight. You are still able to win.

That was fun. Thanks for taking over during my Yosimite trip, baudib!

Being a noob, I randomized some of the kills. I'm looking forward to playing again and doing some things differently.

Originally Posted by daven

wuf doesn't fake out. You fakeout and do what you can to get sdm lynched. Wuf converts overnight, you die overnight. You are still able to win.

Yep... that's where the 21% comes from.

Had I fake outed as seer would it have worked? I guess it was plausible. I prob look way more villager than SDM but I don't think i would have any seer cred.

you guys are right I hadn't thought it through right. Some subtleties of the game eluded me.

It was actually plausible that SDM could get lynched if I outed, given how close he came anyway. I was shining through as super villager although it'd be pretty batshit crazy for a seer to act the way I did. I might have been able to sell it...riffing off the Hoopy defense line. in retrospect that probably wasn't a great idea either. But I didn't think I'd stop Hoopy from getting lynched anyway, and I'd get mega villager cred when he flipped village.

if you fake outed with hoopy as a lookup and dead villagers the other nights then your seerness looks super plausible with regards to defending hoopy compared to sdm who was advocating that his lookups be lynched. The same with wuf , if he'd gone down the dead lookups route explaining why he hadn't mashed the keyboard and that he was trying to induce a fake out from the wolf he may have got away with lynching sdm. But wuf outing was a massive fail for the wolves in that the person who could convert and be hidden put a neon sign above his head saying that he was wolf team aligned once sdm was dead and shown to be the seer. Once the conversion took place SDM's lookups are worthless as any of us could have been the turncoat.

GG all and thanks to rilla for modding.

Also thanks to baudib for playing like my personal cheerleader, even though you ended up being a wolf!

Originally Posted by Keith

if you fake outed with hoopy as a lookup and dead villagers the other nights then your seerness looks super plausible with regards to defending hoopy compared to sdm who was advocating that his lookups be lynched.

Really? Eric didn't look like the seer and Eric's play must be taken into account. Moreover, advocating lynches of my villager confirms = less likely to be eaten by the wolves all else equal.

If we had been able to communicate, we definitely would have been more savvy. Also, I had zero interest in being the lone wolf. It wouldn't feel like I was even on the team, so I was not going to make a plan that included reaching out and the other wolf dying. Even if we could have won that way, I was not going to do it

In my live game I played The Hunter -- he gets to kill one person player when he dies. I basically cost us the game -- we had 3 teams that game: Villagers, wolves and one vampire. We were down to 3 villagers, vampire and 1 wolf and 1 sorceror (sort of like the turncoat but even weaker, doesn't convert, hunts the seer) and I lost a flip and killer a villager.

The vampire was a sick role: scans villager, can't be killed by the wolves.