Werewolf: To The Edge

Now I've read that wall, well scanned, I see wuf is voting for someone he admits he doesn't think is a wolf. So he's really fucking gambling here... I'm either turncoat or villager from his pov, and he wants me dead.

This is not optimal wuf.

Either way, Ong is contradicting himself everywhere. That's how you find baddies

lol get this - wuf thinks me contradicting myself is a wolf tell.

I can't be bothered to argue with you wuf. What I want you to do is a little exercise - assume I'm villager. Now, what do you think of dan?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I can't be bothered to argue with you wuf. What I want you to do is a little exercise - assume I'm villager. Now, what do you think of dan?

I've been assuming you're a villager all this time

What do I think of Dan? I think you attacked him in exactly the same illogical way you attacked me. He expressed a thought in the opening post and you jumped on him for the same kind of hyper-simplistic ultra-nuanced-tell reason you jumped on me in my opening game post

I think this is your baddy strategy. Pointy pointy point the finger, run off laughing as everybody blames everybody else. You've done it before

Now I've read that wall, well scanned, I see wuf is voting for someone he admits he doesn't think is a wolf. So he's really fucking gambling here... I'm either turncoat or villager from his pov, and he wants me dead.

I tried to re-explain that. I think I was wrong about why I thought you were a not-wolf. From when I first made that case, I acknowledged it could be something you would do as a wolf if you were trying to be slick, but I didn't think you would do that. I thought you honestly believed I was the turncoat, but now I see you were just flinging mud and I don't think you believed it in the first place, which nullifies my rationale for why you were not-wolf

Now I'm bolded on you because I think you're either a wolf or the turncoat. Which is more than can be said for why you bolded anybody so far.

I think this is your baddy strategy. Pointy pointy point the finger, run off laughing as everybody blames everybody else. You've done it before

Yeah I've done it before. Like, every game.

This is my problem with you right now wuf. I'm not liking the way you're suggesting everything I do or say is my baddie game. It's not, and you should know it's not. This is me being ong fucking bonga. The fact I'm spewing so freely should comfort you, not worry you. When I'm a wolf, I find it very fucking hard to do what I'm doing now... being a villager. This is what I meant by dropping town tells. It should be obvious to anyone who can read me. Why can't you read me yet wuf? I suck at being a wolf.

You always say you suck at being a wolf. It isn't remotely true except in that you expect to fail, so you fulfill your prophecy. I have an opinion about what your specific problem is as a wolf, but obviously I can't tell you now. What I will say is it has nothing to do with your supposed "inability" to act like just ur average joe ongie bongie townie

Have a reads list based on what I can remember so far -

jackvance - can't really remember anything he's posted, so fuck knows. Villager I guess, based on probability.
hoopy - he's in his comfort zone. He's an awkward wolf. I think he's a villager.
dhubermex - fuck knows. New and weird style. Could be wolf but then again could just be settling in awkardly.
gatorjh - dead villager
keith - keith is keith, I can't read this fucker.
sdm - a lot quieter than I'd expect off him, and what he has posted doesn't make a great deal of sense. I guess the latter shouldn't surprise me, but his quietness is alarming.
wufwugy - I think he's a villager. I like to think our d1 bickering helps me to read him.
ongbonga - confirmed MVP
gabe - dead villager
bigred - confirmed bigred. Hope he's a villager because who the fuck can read him?
eric - fuck knows
rong - wolf
daven - wolf

Yeah daven and rong, that's you're wolves.

turncoat can be eric for today.

I do suck at being a wolf. If I win as a wolf, it's because the villagers suck at being villagers more than I suck at being a wolf. And that happens pretty often.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Have a reads list based on what I can remember so far -

jackvance - can't really remember anything he's posted, so fuck knows. Villager I guess, based on probability.
hoopy - he's in his comfort zone. He's an awkward wolf. I think he's a villager.
dhubermex - fuck knows. New and weird style. Could be wolf but then again could just be settling in awkardly.
gatorjh - dead villager
keith - keith is keith, I can't read this fucker.
sdm - a lot quieter than I'd expect off him, and what he has posted doesn't make a great deal of sense. I guess the latter shouldn't surprise me, but his quietness is alarming.
wufwugy - I think he's a villager. I like to think our d1 bickering helps me to read him.
ongbonga - confirmed MVP
gabe - dead villager
bigred - confirmed bigred. Hope he's a villager because who the fuck can read him?
eric - fuck knows
rong - wolf
daven - wolf

Yeah daven and rong, that's you're wolves.

turncoat can be eric for today.

lol, you know what's funny here? = i think rong and ubermex are the wolves and that wuf is turncoat...
assuming eric used to play a bit of werewolf then sub in eric if i'm wrong on one of those.

Lynch Rong

forgot to add, yet again i'm vanilla, so a mislynch of me isn't the most awful thing that could happen.

Originally Posted by rong

Riiiiiight. So requesting a VC is role indicative? Sure thing buddy. How about you back that up with some facts.


This is a prime example of what I find off about you and also how I spotted you last time. Your words and your actions don't add up. You say one thing but do another. You demand facts for my accusations and then sprout bullshit without facts yourself. You basically grab on to any piece of crap you can find and just present it like it's evidence of something when I doubt you even consider whether it is yourself before you type it.

Unless he is going wolfvillager. Act useless to the village while you're a villager to make you a better wolf. Sadly when people do this they are forgetting that they end up a wolf 25% of the time so they end up hurting the village the other 75% of the games they play. It's basic math.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

As weird as it sounds, I don't think the Gabe nom is bad for us. An inactive Gabe is a very dangerous Gabe. He's probably one of the hardest players to read, and if he's inactive, we kinda have to lynch him for that reason because if he's a wolf there's no way we'll be able to tell. This nom kept us from having to deal with him.

I agree that killing him was good for the village. Gator dying was bad for the village but I think he's going to get hung early in the next few ww games because of his performance as a wolf.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I'm looking at this sequence of events, and I'm thinking WTF? How does he bold Gator for no reason, unbold for no reason, include Gator in his turncoat suspicions (without including me, the person he was earlier confident was the turncoat), then say he doesn't like a Gator lynch and the reason he gives (upped activity levels) isn't that great and Gator's "upped activity levels" came before Ong originally bolded Gator in the first place?

Ong plays on Mafiascum as well as here. I am sticking with my theory that Ong is playing wolfvillager. He is not going to suicide again like last game.


I have a feeling that wuf and Ong are both villagers. Would a wolf butt heads with a villager so hard to start the game? I don't think so.

hoopy - he's in his comfort zone. He's an awkward wolf. I think he's a villager.

I'm reading him as a wolf. He was bouncing off the walls on day 1 as if he is going out of his way to play differently than last game where he was a wolf. I think his standard game is a lot quieter but my information could be out of date.

sdm - a lot quieter than I'd expect off him, and what he has posted doesn't make a great deal of sense. I guess the latter shouldn't surprise me, but his quietness is alarming.

I am checking the game thread just once per day now.


Keith is quieter than usual so I think he is up to something. Then again I think he is up to something every game. I think he is a villager for now.

Tough losing both gabe and Gator early, at least we haven't lost any specials.

I feel like ong/wuf and ong/rong as wolf pairs are way less likely given the conversations they've been having. Too sustained and aggressive for wolves.

lynch Eric

First post is fluff, second post is a vote for Gator with no explanation.

Originally Posted by daven

forgot to add, yet again i'm vanilla, so a mislynch of me isn't the most awful thing that could happen.

It's still bad for the village.

Why do you think wuf is the turncoat?

lynch hoopy

For taking the easy lynch road which is pretty wolfy.

daven isn't bad enough to claim vanilla under no pressure, wtf?

Unless he is going wolfvillager. Act useless to the village while you're a villager to make you a better wolf. Sadly when people do this they are forgetting that they end up a wolf 25% of the time so they end up hurting the village the other 75% of the games they play. It's basic math.

lol I got called useless by SDM. Quick question for you... who's providing the most content so far? Who's forcing others to provide content? What do you expect from me in the early stages of the game?

Also, this style I play - it's not easy to play like this as a wolf. Every new game I think "I need to tone down my villager game", just so I can play wolf easier. But it never happens like that. I just spew my thoughts. But that is NOT anti-village, because not only does it show my villager hand to those who can read me, but it provides a lot of content for analysis later.

lynch daven

Daven is definitely up to something.

First of all, it makes no sense for a vanilla to claim it on d2 under no pressure, because if he's honest and the wolves believe him, that reduces the special pool.

Moreover, he seems to have soulread both wolves and turncoat, but there's very little content from daven so far. Daven is a good villager, but he tends to figure out who wolves are not by sitting back doing bollocks all, but by being involved, asking questions, pointing fingers etc.

daven is not playing his normal game here.

Originally Posted by jackvance

lynch hoopy

For taking the easy lynch road which is pretty wolfy.

Lul wat?

You spent day 1 talking about game mechanics then lynched someone because their name was confusing. Wolf.

Originally Posted by Hoopy

Tough losing both gabe and Gator early, at least we haven't lost any specials.

I feel like ong/wuf and ong/rong as wolf pairs are way less likely given the conversations they've been having. Too sustained and aggressive for wolves.

This is in line with my thoughts as well. I could be incorrect of course, but it doesn't come across as two wolves conspiring with each other thought a massive level.

My initial line in the game was that wuf was potentially a wolf (he seemed a more likely candidate than others, at least to me). Although that may still be the case, I went through one of the previous games and noticed that he's also a big-time contributor in those as well. The same goes for OngBonga, so now I really don't have any inkling.

In general, I also like OngBonga's statement about contributing a lot to the thread. This game is much more interesting when there are active posts and we can at least draw some conclusions (who knows if they're correct) based on what's being posted.

At the moment, I'm leaning toward a rong lynching but am not yet convinced enough to make an official nomination.

My problem with a rong lynch at the moment is that's who daven is going for, and I'm really not liking daven right now.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

LOL poor Gator. I guess he just scared everybody so much from his wolf games that he got easily lynched on Day 1. I thought he was one of the few decent shots at a villager, but reputation influences perceptions every time.

"Hi, I'm Wufwugy. My hindsight in werewolf is always 20/20."

Originally Posted by StillDeadMoney

Keith is quieter than usual so I think he is up to something. Then again I think he is up to something every game. I think he is a villager for now.

Did not realize Keith was even playing...hmmmmmm

Really no idea. Not much information has been revealed besides the usual Ong/Wolf back and forth. Gator voted for a dhuber combined with his play makes me interested in lynching him. Other than that , I got nothing.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

My problem with a rong lynch at the moment is that's who daven is going for, and I'm really not liking daven right now.

I think rong is the strongest possible wolf out there at the moment. I still can't make heads or tails out of the back-and-forth between you and wuf, but it has made me doubt your roles as potential wolves for now.

I think there's enough to go on to at least draw a conclusion that rong is a stronger possibility than average to be wolfing around, so he gets my vote for now.

Lynch rong

To add to this, you originally nominated rong earlier today and then changed to daven without rescinding. This makes me a bit suspicious that you and rong are the wolves and that you are so busy strategically planning to eat us all that you forgot to rescind.

Obviously forget this if I'm wrong in my assumption that it's necessary to rescind a lynch candidate before nominating another one on the same day.

So, in your own words mex, what exactly has led you to draw the conclusion that I'm the most likely wolf?

Not rescinding is never gonna be a wolf tell. And even if I was a wolf, I wouldn't be at all bothered about who to eat at this moment, that's something to worry about at night.

Rescinding votes is polite, but not necessary.

lol and if I were a wolf with dan, no way do I post at exactly the same time as him, because we'd know we're both online by going into the den first to talk about how to respond.

Originally Posted by rong

So, in your own words mex, what exactly has led you to draw the conclusion that I'm the most likely wolf?

You and OngBonga nominating each other and then OngBonga not formally rescinding before selecting daven. Two wolves conspiring to nominate each other (only to take their nominations back at a later time) is a completely acceptable strategy afaik.

To me, the nomination of each other and then the quick take back by OngBonga comes across as two wolves conspiring or a wolf and a turncoat trying to feel each other out (more like feel each other "up" if you ask me).

I think it's more likely that both of you are wolves and it will be game over as soon as the both of you are lynched, but you could still be a wolf/turncoat combo.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

lol and if I were a wolf with dan, no way do I post at exactly the same time as him, because we'd know we're both online by going into the den first to talk about how to respond.

... says a wolf or turncoat who's had experience with this game. This could be executed as an obvious level.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Not rescinding is never gonna be a wolf tell.

Maybe, maybe not. I think I'm on to something though.

That's actually far better reasoning than I expected.

But if you think ong and I are wolves together and then he's the one to make this mistake of scheming in the wolf den and then forgetting to rescind before changing a bold, then shouldn't he be the one you bold first? As if (when ) I'm revealed to be a villager then his mistake could still be that of a wolf scheming in the den and forgetting himself, where as the case on me revolves solely around me and ong being wolves together and therefore him flipping villager would mean you have no theory against me.

ie regardless who you lynch if that person flips wolf your theory still holds, but with me regardless how I flip your theory still holds where as with him you have a chance of disproving it with less death on your hands.

Ya get me?

And before ong says this means I know he'll flip villager and it will clear me. No it does not, it just means I acknowledge I can't know anything for certain aside from the fact I'd rather see ong hang than me.

lol lynch rong

You're not onto something ubermex. It's quite frankly ridiculous to think that failing to rescind a vote is a wolf tell.

But I think dan is a wolf. It's not even that his comments come across as someone who knows I'm a villager. It's that he got paranoid that's how his comments would be interpreted. Villagers don't think about their comments coming across as from a wolf pov, simply because they don't. Wolves worry about their comments and read back their posts, thinking stuff like "shit did I pov slip there"?

That paranoia nails dan as a wolf for me.

daven is probably the turncoat. That would mean his vanilla claim makes some sense. Thing with daven is, he gets nommed early quite often, because he's good at looking like a special when he's not. That said, if he is the turncoat, he'll be paranoid that he's gonna get nommed. Maybe his vanilla comment is designed to do just that... make him a less interesting nom for the wolves.

My problem with daven is that I would totally expect him to realise why a vanilla claiming vanilla on d2 under no pressure is a very bad move. It's also bad for a wolf or special to do it, a wolf because it removes fakeclaim options later, and a special because it draws wolf attention to him, the wolves will look hard at him to decide if he's special or turncoat.

dan wolf, daven turncoat...

If dan is a wolf, mex is unlikely to be one, simply because he's swinging for dan first out of the two of us. If he's a wolf with dan, more likely he'd use this attack to justify clearing dan after my villager flip... which means getting me lynched, not dan. So his vote would make no sense.

Do you listen to yourself? It's like you've never even played WW before. You forget that the last thing Rong is going to do is have a POV slip. He could be the wolfiest wolf who ever wolfed, yet he still won't POV slip. POV slip is nutlow. Nobody ever does it. Do you seriously think a baddy is gonna "herpa derpa me no remember that me a baddy but me postie postie neeways". Rong is the only FTR player who has been a wolf and convinced every single player that he was not a wolf (the final day with Luco Rong Jyms where the dead thread picked Jyms for the wolf). But of course I'm sure you completely forgot about that game because you're baked out of your mind 24/7

That you don't understand Daven's vanilla claim shows that you're not paying attention. This isn't the first time he's done that. He did that in the most recent game, and he explained why he did it in the dead thread. I'm sure everybody remembers except you. Or maybe nobody remembers and I'm the idiot for actually paying attention. Also he's not an early nom target. If you actually remembered Daven's past games and why he was nommed early in that one game, you wouldn't even question this. But no, you bold Rong for god knows what dumbass reason then flappy floppy mcgoo onto Daven then slappy blappy back onto Rong. The whole time saying things that aren't even remotely accurate

Half the reason anybody wants to lynch you in any game is for clarity. You just keep batting shit so much that it's not even possible to see what's what while you're around. Earlier you asked me what I think about Dan, and honestly I can't even think about Dan now because of your whack dominating the airways. All I see out of Rong right now is that he's obviously posting from his phone and at work, and you're construing the change in prose that makes into some grand tell


Inb4 you change your mind and bold some rando for no reason whatsoever. It's the ongie way! It's going to infuriate me if you actually get one right, because the points you're making are so wrong yet you're gonna act like they were brilliant all along

Am I right in counting five different players you've called the turncoat? Let's see, there's me, SDM, Keith, Gator, Eric, and now Daven. Who else is the turncoat, ong? Quick, you have only 48 hours left in Day 2 to point the finger at every other player! I believe in you! You can do it! You just have to type the names into that little box and hit submit! Then you'll convince everybody how brilliant you are! All players are baddies except for Ongie, and if nobody sees that, they just don't understand how awesome Ongie is at pointing out all those Level 0 tells they're sending off!

I got to "baked out of your mind 24/7" and realise right there that you're taking a dig at me, which is very much uncharcteristic of you wuf. And I'm not baked out of my mind 24/7. I've given up smoking tobacco, which means I'm smoking much less weed. Shows what you know. Apology accepted.

You seem to have a very high opinion of dan's wolf game. I understand that. he played fucking awesome that once. That doesn't mean to say he's fucking awesome every time he gets wolf. I've had sick wolf games, both here and mafiascum. I've also had very bad wolf games. And sick wolves can be read, because sick wolves are still human beings subject to human traits. Dan is not some kind of robot or alien.

And you're wrong wuf. pov slips happen, I see it on mafiascum, I see it here. What's more, I'm not even complaining about dan's pov thing, I'm complaining about his fit of paranoia when he read back his post. Yes, read back his post. How often do you read back your posts after submitting as a villager wuf? I can tell you I don't do it nearly as often when I'm villager as I do wolf. That's what I'm saying is a wolf tell wuf, not the pov thing.

People want to kill me for clarity? I don't care. Am I supposed to care? If you have a problem with my style, that's your problem. Kill me and see what happens. I'll tell you - a villager flip, and a decrease in game activity. Because most people post once a day. So that's two or three posts a ww day. That's basically taking wild stabs at people based on very little. How fucking great a game that is. I try to get people talking, because then there's more info to help us figure shit out. You know this wuf, you know exactly why I play the way I do. It's still d2. I'm still in poke people and see what happens mode. I'm doing a very good job of it too.

It's going to infuriate me if you actually get one right

This isn't villager language wuf. This whole attack makes doesn't add up. You're trying very hard to discredit me. Why? If you're just a villager, then how the fuck can you know if I'm on the wrong path? Do you actually think I'm a wolf wuf? No, you're mocking me instead of suggesting that I have wolf motives. You don't normally mock me wuf, and I'm playing exactly the same as I always do.

I'm frustrated because you're wolfing, then I call you out on it, then it's blown off, nobody even seems to notice, then you keep doing it. You keep saying you're playing your villager game, but I don't think you are at all. I've seen you play both villager and wolf many times, and you're doing now what you do as a wolf but not as a villager.

Also I'm unconvinced Mafiascum players know what they're doing. Go ahead and call me dumb for saying that, but super simplistic things that can be construed as POV slips are done by villagers inadvertently all the time. If you close your eyes and throw a dart behind your back, you're gonna hit the baddy target at least 20% of the time because they're 20% of the starting pool. I think a lot of the things you're calling wolf tells are simply not. Maybe we're butting heads at an unusually high level now because you're playing very Mafiascum-like and I'm not. I remember both you and JKDS explained a while ago how the Mafiascum games are far more cold and technical (or something to that effect), and I'll say right now I think that is majorly the wrong way to play WW. Technical nuances and perceptions of probability are the easiest things to manipulate or simply misunderstand in the first place. Like when it comes to what can be perceived as a POV slip, the margin of error is so huge that the read is virtually worthless in the first place. It's so strange that I think some players make even more wolfy mistakes as villagers than they do as wolves. I've discussed this dynamic before, naming at least one specific player who I think looks like a major wolf whenever he's a villager but looks like a villager whenever he's a wolf, but hopefully people have forgotten who that is so I can keep that read to myself

It's not my intention to attack you personally. I don't know what your smoking habits have been other than you used to say you were high whenever you were playing WW. However, I am obviously attacking your play in this game. I've told you many times that I think you're a much better player than you say, but now this is striking me as extra lazy. I honestly don't want to tell you the main reason I think you're playing differently than your village games. For obvious reasons. I also think you're toying. My attacks are meant to point out how you're toying. For example, I point out all the players you've whimsically called turncoat not so much to call you whimsical, but to make the point that you're playing whimsically like you do as a wolf

I also don't like the fact that there are no wagons. You're at two, Rong's at two, Hoopy's at one, and that's it. Ever since that game a long time ago that the village lost because I pushed a wagon on vilgator too hard and got him lynched in a way that set the wolf win in motion, I have been reluctant to push wagons as hard as I want to. But also I get frustrated when there's no consolidation. It's really bad for the village and we learn nothing yet still end up having to choose a lynch.

Maybe I'm completely fucking off and the wolves are just sitting back and watching us bicker. I hope not because then I look like an idiot, but whatever. I always look like an idiot some way or another

wuf seems to have a serious problem with me wolfreading dan. He claims my logic is thin. Let me just bullet point the reasons I think dan is suspect -

- dives into the thread with strat, no easing himself in
- vague reasonless defence of wuf
- post 101, another defence of wuf without explanation. Suggests competing wagon theory based on rilla suggesting it was good village strat. I wouldn't be surprised if rilla was a wolf when he suggested that. It's pretty obviously an awful idea if the wolves have sufficient influence to ensure the two wagons are villagers, or if the two most likely to be lynched people are villagers. He then votes for gator, and later complains about how terrible his villager flip, along with gabe's, is for us.
- dan now goes into "argue shit with ong about language" mode, failing to grasp the context which I was using.
- asks for VC an hour before deadline. Pro-town thing to do would be to do an unofficial VC to see where we're at, but instead he disappears, with a strong villager in the lead.
- enters d2 complaing about how terrible the lynch and nom were, even though we haven't lost a special and the vig held back or was blocked.
- fit of paranoia about pov, in the process showing that he's carefully reading back his posts after submitting.

Those last two are pretty strong wolf tells wuf, but you're not only refusing to acknowledge legitimate concerns about dan, you're mocking me for expressing such concerns. Why is that?

Ok here's an example of a pov slip from mafiascum that I picked up on (and everyone ignored) -

scum -

"I don't think that's a wolf tell for me"

me -

"Don't think? You should KNOW it's not a wolf tell if you're town"

Noone gave me any credit for it, it got swept under the carpet, and that scum nearly won it for them. He got killed way after they nommed me.

It's basic pyschology, and is in my opinion the strongest villager weapon in early game. But very few people actually try to figure out if a particular comment is from a wolf pov or villager.

And yes I've suggested a lot of people can be the turncoat. On each occasion I explain why. Reads change wuf, that's normal. Should I not post a read in fear of it changing and making me look dumb later? Is that what you're suggesting I should do?

Originally Posted by OngBonga

wuf seems to have a serious problem with me wolfreading dan. He claims my logic is thin. Let me just bullet point the reasons I think dan is suspect -

- dives into the thread with strat, no easing himself in
- vague reasonless defence of wuf
- post 101, another defence of wuf without explanation. Suggests competing wagon theory based on rilla suggesting it was good village strat. I wouldn't be surprised if rilla was a wolf when he suggested that. It's pretty obviously an awful idea if the wolves have sufficient influence to ensure the two wagons are villagers, or if the two most likely to be lynched people are villagers. He then votes for gator, and later complains about how terrible his villager flip, along with gabe's, is for us.
- dan now goes into "argue shit with ong about language" mode, failing to grasp the context which I was using.
- asks for VC an hour before deadline. Pro-town thing to do would be to do an unofficial VC to see where we're at, but instead he disappears, with a strong villager in the lead.
- enters d2 complaing about how terrible the lynch and nom were, even though we haven't lost a special and the vig held back or was blocked.
- fit of paranoia about pov, in the process showing that he's carefully reading back his posts after submitting.

Those last two are pretty strong wolf tells wuf, but you're not only refusing to acknowledge legitimate concerns about dan, you're mocking me for expressing such concerns. Why is that?

Because he's a lazy ass villager. He didn't use to be, but now he's like Jyms, always posting from phone. It's honestly kinda frustrating how lazy he's gotten the last few games. And because you have been the one to attack him and I don't think your intentions are on the up n up.

Some of those points look like they could be good though. I'll have to look them over. When I'm not drinking. Right now I'm a little more bleh than usual and just wanna argue. I'm moody like that

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Ok here's an example of a pov slip from mafiascum that I picked up on (and everyone ignored) -

scum -

"I don't think that's a wolf tell for me"

me -

"Don't think? You should KNOW it's not a wolf tell if you're town"

Noone gave me any credit for it, it got swept under the carpet, and that scum nearly won it for them. He got killed way after they nommed me.

It's basic pyschology, and is in my opinion the strongest villager weapon in early game. But very few people actually try to figure out if a particular comment is from a wolf pov or villager.

And yes I've suggested a lot of people can be the turncoat. On each occasion I explain why. Reads change wuf, that's normal. Should I not post a read in fear of it changing and making me look dumb later? Is that what you're suggesting I should do?

It's that I don't see the rationale for why you're swapping reads. I change my opinions all the time. Many times in every game, but I do it from logic based on new information. Sometimes vocalizing why is hard, but it's gotta be done. What I see from you is a lack of logic behind why you're bouncing around. One of my main wolf-hunting tactics is something Rilla said years ago: "find whose talking the most while talking the least". That's the most accurate thing about WW I've ever seen. That's what I see from you. You were hyper convinced I was the turncoat, but then it seemed you magically decided I'm not. Then you named a bunch of other players as the turncoat (for very little reason), and I'm sitting here thinking "wtf is he even doing?"


As for your Mafiascum example, looks like it's a good example. But you gotta remember all the times you claim a slip and you're wrong. That is a decent example though, unless there is another way to explain it, like he tends to look at things theoretically, or he has a lackadaisical and sarcastic prose. It's not like it's inherently wrong or a bad thing to look for. I think it's a good thing to look for, but of all the claims done in these games, most of them have ended up wrong. So much so that we need a good reason behind them to take them seriously

I mean look at how Uburmux said "as" when he probably should have meant "to". I have no idea what to do with this. There is a greater than zero probability that it was a slip signifying his role, but there's a much higher probability that it's just a typo. I have a hard time making a case against somebody for things like this. They're just too often coincidences. However, they are significant if part of a larger case, I think

And because you have been the one to attack him and I don't think your intentions are on the up n up.

I think you of all people should see this is my villager game. Maybe you really do overrate my wolf game though.

It's that I don't see the rationale for why you're swapping reads.

Well then you're not reading anything. You attacked me when I flipped from daven wolf to dan wolf daven turncoat. But if you read my posts, you'll see that it comes just after dan has his moment of paranoia. You'll also note that I didn't hop onto dan when mex was talking about lynching him, because I was concerned about daven's motives, and he's on dan. So it's natural for me to consider daven the turncoat if I think dan is a wolf. I really don't like daven claiming vanilla, I don't think he's that bad. You say he's done it before but I'm not so sure about that, not under no pressure.

That evolution of reads that you were so quick to mock, it should make some sense to you wuf if you actually had an open mind.

I think you and dan are wolves, daven turncoat. That's my d2 read wuf, please don't go into meltodwn if I'm wrong or I change my mind.

If you're not a baddy, I think your game is changing. We don't seem to play much anymore here, and maybe you're getting a lot of development in at Mafiascum

Honestly, I'd rather you lynch me now than make me read that long post of bull shit.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

wuf seems to have a serious problem with me wolfreading dan. He claims my logic is thin. Let me just bullet point the reasons I think dan is suspect -

- dives into the thread with strat, no easing himself in not remotely role indicative
- vague reasonless defence of wuf your argument was weak it wasn't so much a defence of him as a dismissal of you
- post 101, another defence of wuf without explanation. Suggests competing wagon theory based on rilla suggesting it was good village strat. I wouldn't be surprised if rilla was a wolf when he suggested that.factual error It's pretty obviously an awful idea what? if the wolves have sufficient influence to ensure the two wagons are villagers, or if the two most likely to be lynched people are villagers. He then votes for gator, and later complains about how terrible his villager flip, along with gabe's, is for us. Alread explained and I stand by explanation
- dan now goes into "argue shit with ong about language" mode, failing to grasp the context which I was using.you lie ong, you were sprouting bull shit and claiming something to be so that wasn't
- asks for VC an hour before deadline. Pro-town thing to do would be to do an unofficial VC to see where we're at, but instead he disappears, with a strong villager in the lead. this isn't evidence of anything, at all
- enters d2 complaing about how terrible the lynch and nom were, even though we haven't lost a special and the vig held back or was blocked.you've already mentioned this one in the list, and I've already explained it
- fit of paranoia about pov, in the process showing that he's carefully reading back his posts after submitting.there is an irrational attack hound looking at every one of my posts to try to make some kind of argument against me, makes sense to clarify. And who doesn't read there own posts back to check that they make sense and express the desired point

Those last two are pretty strong wolf tells wuf, but you're not only refusing to acknowledge legitimate concerns about dan, you're mocking me for expressing such concerns. Why is that?

You literally have no valid argument what so ever. You're using your standard tactic of draining the will from whomever it is you are attacking. I don't think you even consider the evidence yourself, you just try to create a mountain of it, irrespective of validity, in the hope something sticks.

But I demonstrated quite clearly where you have mislead with your assumptions and points and where your behavior had contradicted your own words.

You were wrong before in your post about the turncoat, and you should know better.

You were wrong about your own previous role when I said it was repeat behavior of your previous wolf role and you said you weren't a wolf.

You were wrong in your statement that a vc request is evidence of wolf behavior.

You're wrong above where you suggest that suggesting two competing wagons as opposed to extremely wide spread of votes is helpful to the wolves.

You're wrong above where you suggest Rilla was a wolf when he originally suggested the two competing wagons theory.

You're wrong to think I'd pov slip as a wolf. And you're also wrong in your suggestion that my post is an example of a pov slip.

You're wrong thinking I'm paranoid in checking my posts. If I'm in an argument with someone who is desperately looking for holes in my posts then of course I'm going to check my posts, especially when posting from my phone when it's easy to mistype and difficult to check.

Later on today when I'm on my laptop I'm going to effectively do to you what you've just done to me, which is go through all of your posts and create a list of your posts and behaviors that are wolfy and yours will look far worse than mine.b

You're basically the equivalent of a tabloid newspaper, who also unfortunately have an impact on public opinion.

7 out of 11 players have less posts than the mod and the mod hasn't been that active.

I never said you pov slipped. You were paranoid that I would say you had pov slipped. I'm saying the wolf tell is you reading back your posts and having a fit of paranoia.

I'm not saying a VC request is proof of anything. I'm saying that the fact you then didn't do it at such a crucial time, instead disappearing at near deadline with gator in the lead, is fishy.

You're misrepping some of the stronger points against you. I've already explained those points above, so you're gladly misrepping me

Your rebuttal is purely designed to discredit me. There's no acknowledgement of any of the points I raise, you simply claim I have no valid argument at all. There's no putting yourself in my position to try and undestand why I'm attacking you, why I think you're a wolf. You're not attempting to use my attack on you to determine my alignment. That's because you already know it.

Originally Posted by rong

You're basically the equivalent of a tabloid newspaper, who also unfortunately have an impact on public opinion.

And you're Israel, bombing the shit out of your neighbours and stealing their land, while claiming to be persecuted.

I think this game may have been started too soon after the last one.

I am going to lynch hoopy because he's the strongest read I have as a wolf. Other good lynches include rong who looks angrier than usual and daven. I like wuf and ong as villagers. jackvance is looking like a villager like he does every game.

I would laugh if Eric and Mex end up being the wolves.

Originally Posted by dhubermex

To add to this, you originally nominated rong earlier today and then changed to daven without rescinding. This makes me a bit suspicious that you and rong are the wolves and that you are so busy strategically planning to eat us all that you forgot to rescind.

Obviously forget this if I'm wrong in my assumption that it's necessary to rescind a lynch candidate before nominating another one on the same day.

I don't think a new wolf says stuff like this, his den partner would tell him that it means nothing.

Originally Posted by rong

You're basically the equivalent of a tabloid newspaper, who also unfortunately have an impact on public opinion.

Ouch.

Since no one is interested in Eric.

rescind
lynch daven.

Originally Posted by rong

7 out of 11 players have less posts than the mod and the mod hasn't been that active.

lynch ong

For drowning out everyone else.

I can't help it if I'm the only person logging in regularly. Why don't you lynch everyone else for failing to match my activity? That's why I drown everyojne else out, because I'm easily the most active person. That's not my fault.

And besides, shouldn't you be trying to lynch a wolf jack?

I'm on the road and I've never played the game before - sorry about the lack of participation. As for the gator lynch choice, I saw other people calling him out and it gave me a chance to have all the whiskey to myself.

Originally Posted by StillDeadMoney

Unless he is going wolfvillager. Act useless to the village while you're a villager to make you a better wolf. Sadly when people do this they are forgetting that they end up a wolf 25% of the time so they end up hurting the village the other 75% of the games they play. It's basic math.

i laughed why i read this. The most useless villager ever to have played comes out with that theory.Its not even going to help you as a wolf as everyone is happy to see you dead.

I agree that killing him was good for the village. Gator dying was bad for the village but I think he's going to get hung early in the next few ww games because of his performance as a wolf.

yeah great idea . lets get rid of all the good players so that you can survive

Ong plays on Mafiascum as well as here. I am sticking with my theory that Ong is playing wolfvillager. He is not going to suicide again like last game.

How can you possibly know if ong is going to suicide again. You can't unless you've discussed it in the wolf chat.

I have a feeling that wuf and Ong are both villagers. Would a wolf butt heads with a villager so hard to start the game? I don't think so.

its happened many times in the past .

I'm reading him as a wolf. He was bouncing off the walls on day 1 as if he is going out of his way to play differently than last game where he was a wolf. I think his standard game is a lot quieter but my information could be out of date.

probably means that hoopy is a villager then

I am checking the game thread just once per day now.
Keith is quieter than usual so I think he is up to something. Then again I think he is up to something every game. I think he is a villager for now.

really? you said exactly the same last game when i was a villager. just been extremely busy with work the last couple of days.

knowing that ong won't suicide makes me think you are talking to him.ergo you come up as a wolf ong probably is a wolf.

lynch SDM

ffs you're forcing my hand here keith. Currently, I'm on 3 and SDM 1 I think, which means inevitably you're gonna shift onto me if SDM doesn't pick up votes. I don't want to vote SDM though because I think he's a villager, because he's made a drastic adjustment to his game. Would he do that when he finally binks wolf? More likely he'd try his hardest to look like normal SDM if he was actually a wolf.

SDM is talking nonsense, but I don't think he's wolfy. But self preservation means I'm gonna have to vote him if people don't back off me.

Fuck it, I'm not voting for him, I'm sticking with who I think the wolves are. I don't care if I die, if I get lynched thanks to wuf dan and jack, serves the village right for complainging about high activity.

wuf - ong
rong - ong
daven - rong
dhubermex - rong
ong - rong
sdm - hoopy
hoopy - daven
jack - ong
keith - sdm

ong - 3 (wuf, rong, jack)
rong - 3 (daven, mex, ong)
hoopy, daven, sdm - 1

Originally Posted by OngBonga

ffs you're forcing my hand here keith. Currently, I'm on 3 and SDM 1 I think, which means inevitably you're gonna shift onto me if SDM doesn't pick up votes. I don't want to vote SDM though because I think he's a villager, because he's made a drastic adjustment to his game. Would he do that when he finally binks wolf? More likely he'd try his hardest to look like normal SDM if he was actually a wolf.

SDM is talking nonsense, but I don't think he's wolfy. But self preservation means I'm gonna have to vote him if people don't back off me.

Fuck it, I'm not voting for him, I'm sticking with who I think the wolves are. I don't care if I die, if I get lynched thanks to wuf dan and jack, serves the village right for complainging about high activity.

how do you work the bolded bit out .if you switch from rong to SDM that leaves you on 3 and rong/sdm on 2 . self preservation leaves you on rong so that he is still on 3 and the possibility that someone bumps him up to 4.

also are you worried that if SDM is your co wolf , him actually dying and shown to be a wolf then means the end for the wolf team when you get lynched afterwards. Pretty funny if sdm is just a bad as wolf as he is a villager .

Thing with jack is, I think he at least tries to make what will be perceived as legitimate votes when he's a wolf. He'll want to look like he's trying. His vote on me is so fucking lazy though. The hoopy vote was pretty slack too. He's skating by, waiting for later days. Classic early game jack really. I don't think he's a wolf. But his vote sucks.

keith though, I find him very difficult to read. His sdm - ong bollocks could be him being smart... he could be preparing to hammer me while making it appear he'd rather kill sdm. There's wolf motivation there. There is with jack too I guess, skating by isn't exactly pro-village, it's just I'd expect jack to try harder to appear pro-village as a wolf.

jack's vote is lame, but I think he's a villager. keith, I dunno. I've no idea why he reads sdm's posts thinking he can get anything from them. This is the same sdm who said jack was talking a lot, even though jack is not talking a lot. The same sdm who felt my game here reminded him of last game, then towned me for it, despite me being a wolf last game. What he says makes little sense. So thinking that his comments about me suiciding means anything, it's thin to say the least. I mean why would I even say in the den that I'm not going to suicide? I fakeclaimed seer last game because I was in the shit and we needed to find the seer. I'd do the same again if I were a wolf in the shit this game. So even if me and sdm are wolves, his suicide comment is still bollocks.

And people think my reasons for wolfing people are thin.

how do you work the bolded bit out .if you switch from rong to SDM that leaves you on 3 and rong/sdm on 2 . self preservation leaves you on rong so that he is still on 3 and the possibility that someone bumps him up to 4.

My comments about self preservation came before I counted the votes. I didn't realise dan was on three with me.

And besides, you're gonna vote for me, because you think me and sdm are both wolves, and I have more votes than sdm. It's inevitable.

@Ong

What do you think of daven? He's getting no traction whatsoever.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Thing with jack is, I think he at least tries to make what will be perceived as legitimate votes when he's a wolf. He'll want to look like he's trying. His vote on me is so fucking lazy though. The hoopy vote was pretty slack too. He's skating by, waiting for later days. Classic early game jack really. I don't think he's a wolf. But his vote sucks.

keith though, I find him very difficult to read. His sdm - ong bollocks could be him being smart... he could be preparing to hammer me while making it appear he'd rather kill sdm. There's wolf motivation there. There is with jack too I guess, skating by isn't exactly pro-village, it's just I'd expect jack to try harder to appear pro-village as a wolf.

this appears to me to be ong trying to deflect attention onto Jack

jack's vote is lame, but I think he's a villager. keith, I dunno. I've no idea why he reads sdm's posts thinking he can get anything from them. This is the same sdm who said jack was talking a lot, even though jack is not talking a lot. The same sdm who felt my game here reminded him of last game, then towned me for it, despite me being a wolf last game. What he says makes little sense. So thinking that his comments about me suiciding means anything, it's thin to say the least. I mean why would I even say in the den that I'm not going to suicide? I fakeclaimed seer last game because I was in the shit and we needed to find the seer. I'd do the same again if I were a wolf in the shit this game. So even if me and sdm are wolves, his suicide comment is still bollocks.

And people think my reasons for wolfing people are thin.

if ong is a villager then he knows there is no basis for the ong/sdm theory and he'd be happy for SDM to die. SDM coming back villager then disproves the theory and he is given some villager credit. Ong almost seems desperate in discrediting the theory rather than see SDM die and the theory being discredited by SDM being a villager. If SDM is a villager its no great loss and i'd prefer to keep a villager ong in than lose a villager ONG and SDM is a test of ongs villagerness.

Another thing i don't like is Ong saying that i'm going to switch to voting for him.I've given my reason for voting SDM and losing SDM if i'm wrong is a hell of a lot better for the village than losing Ong if i'm wrong.His defence doesn't make sense as a villager.

keith, I'm not happy for SDM to die because believe it or not I'd sooner lynch someone I think is a wolf than lynch someone I think is a villager just to disprove your dumbass theory.

hoopy, I think daven is fishy. It's close between him and rong for my vote today.

this appears to me to be ong trying to deflect attention onto Jack

Wait what? I think jack is a villager. What are you talking about?

Not bad analysis of me ong. But I disagree that I'm slacking, I rather bold to put pressure than just hold my vote when I don't have a good candidate which I used to do more in the past.

rescind ong

We need to focus on some people that have been sitting back imo.

Originally Posted by Hoopy

What do you think of daven? He's getting no traction whatsoever.

beetlejuice, beetlejuice, beetlejuice

seriously though, i've been busy but i've had a couple of quick readthroughs..

what we have here is a failure to communicate = there isn't enough posting going on except from most players, and too much from a couple...

we gotta think about what's going on...

turncoat - there is one player who is frantically trying to identify a wolf, while at the same time trying to prevent the village from lynching a wolf.
vig - there is one player who can kill at night on a whim, but has proven himself not to be crazy trigger-happy
seer - there is one player who has a little bit of extra info after night one, unless they looked up gabe or the turncoat got super lucky on the block
wolves - there are two players working hard to identify the player with this extra info

and then look at went on late on day 1.
Wolves have to be incredibly happy to get a day 1 gator-lynch. I don't really understand how that happened over a dhubermex lynch, i'll go back and take a look now.

But for now imma gonna go with that infallible gut and
Rescind
Lynch Dhubermex

and yeah, ong is looking like the turncoat as keith pointed out early on day 1 (post #48).
In his post # 45 he quoted this line (and only this line) from wuf:

Originally Posted by wufwugy

He's not a wolf and he doesn't know who the wolves are

which looks like something a villager might quote, but it's also a good description of the turncoat.
Not sure what the turncoat has to gain from the wolves knowing who the turncoat is though, exact limiting the risk of his team (yep, wolves are the players on the turncoat's team) damaging themselves overnight.

ong's a good vig target imo