New game in January: Vanilla ++ Jan. 5

I want 18-20 players for this. Norse mythology/Vikings (TV show) theme. Odin, Thor, Freya, Frost Giants, all that schnazz.

Thinking days will be shortish, 36 hours. And short nights, 12 hours maybe, and nights will end when night actions complete.

There will be lots of power roles, including powers for the wolves. Some people will get vanilla but will secretly earn powers each day they're alive.

Also, random powers can be awarded for people who play well. My definition of what "playing well" means is up for you to guess.

There will be a neutral player (Loki) who can win with either the villagers or the wolves or on his own. This role will have cool awesome powers. I think this player will be key to giving the game the proper flavor, so what I'll do is ask for people to PM me if they're interested in playing it, then add 2 other players and rand the role from that group.

Have never seen the tv show but norse mythology is the best mythology

In for the RANGAROK

The show is very loosely based on historical figures and is not mythology driven. The central character is named Ragnar Lothbrook, and the stories of him probably have a historical accuracy somewhere between the "Braveheart" William Wallace and the tales of King Arthur.

The show portrays him as a complex warlord who believes he is descendent from Odin. He was the first viking to make a raid to the West (England) and led efforts to bring his people to settle there. This is very questionable historically as the "real" Ragnar probably didn't live until decades after the first attacks on England, but whatever.

all of you Brits probably have some viking blood so it should interest you.

Sounds interesting. Be careful about dishing powers out though based on "playing well". Imagine if I bold rilla and then ten minutes later get a pm saying I have a new power. Well does that tell me rilla is a wolf? I can tell the thread that. What if I'm a wolf? Do I still get powers for bolding a wolf? It's a minefield. But it can certainly work if you're careful.

Originally Posted by baudib

Some people will get vanilla but will secretly earn powers each day they're alive.

This sounds cool, as long as it's clearly and thoroughly defined pre-game what those powers are/will be.
OR
It sounds cool if you randomize the roles, but can prove after the game that you used an RNG.

I was wholly dissatisfied last game when 2 people with a blatant commonality on D2 were randomly chosen to be on the Night Watch on N2. I have some thoughts about doing RNG in a way that can be proved to have been random and not mod-trickery.
My thought is to create a thread on QT that is private to the mod and states his intention prior to RNG, then uses some RNG that can be later verified.

I.e.
The post I'm currently quoting is QUOTE=baudib;2221752. The number 2221752 could be used as a seed to an RNG (that takes seeds).

Then the mod would post in the thread "seed post" for decision XYZ. The number on that post is the seed for the RNG which determines the outcome.

Example:
Seed Post
Player XXXX is VV, and has survived to D2. Mod awards that player one of
0) 1-shot angel
1) 1-shot vig.
2) 1-shot role detective
3) 1-shot alignment seer
4) 1-shot role blocker

Then the mod posts that post and checks it's number. The mod uses that number (which was not known to the mod at the time of creating the list) to determine which choice in the list was made.

With 5 choices, you can say: the final digit of the post number determines this choice. Divide that digit by 2 and round down.

Originally Posted by baudib

Also, random powers can be awarded for people who play well. My definition of what "playing well" means is up for you to guess.

I will not play this game.

Mod intervention mid-game pisses me off. (I am not without mistakes, and yes, my interaction with keybored in-game was terribad.)

I could be persuaded to accept this if there is an attempt made pre-game to define what the mod considers "playing well" and that the mods decisions in-game are referenced back to those criteria.

Originally Posted by baudib

There will be a neutral player (Loki) who can win with either the villagers or the wolves or on his own. This role will have cool awesome powers. I think this player will be key to giving the game the proper flavor, so what I'll do is ask for people to PM me if they're interested in playing it, then add 2 other players and rand the role from that group.

This sounds fun, but weird. If the Loki chap wins by solo wincon, do the W's and V's still fight it out for 2nd place? Or is Loki's wincon more like a Serial Killer, who must be last man standing to win?

I am in favor of creating a role that the player may randomly choose / shift between his wincons for the sake of experiment if nothing else.

I am interested in hearing more about this role.

I'm in. No to mod intervention too.

I can't exactly give away what the "playing well" things will be because that will make it easy to achieve them obviously, but will have a checklist of things set aside before game.

The other thing I didn't mention is that I want to add a batch of variance to the game.

-- wolf noms start at base 100% chance to succeed, and this can be modified by factors such as a 50% angel and other bonuses/penalties
-- vig shots will start around 50% and have similar bonuses. What I really want to do here is reward village cooperation, and there will be ways to increase this power if two players can cooperate without openly conspiring in thread.

Most rewards will be ~25% bonuses for these types of actions.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

This sounds fun, but weird. If the Loki chap wins by solo wincon, do the W's and V's still fight it out for 2nd place? Or is Loki's wincon more like a Serial Killer, who must be last man standing to win?

I am in favor of creating a role that the player may randomly choose / shift between his wincons for the sake of experiment if nothing else.

I am interested in hearing more about this role.

There will be options for Loki to pick either village or wolves but the conditions will make it unlikely he would do that, and it will have to be made when the outcome is very much in doubt.

There will be a way for Loki to win outright, and also to win with one of the other two parties while remaining neutral.

In

ive been trying to figure out a game to mod before xmas. something like all villgaers are vigs, there are no nights, no lynches, and like the village wins if they kill 3 wolves out of 5 or something

no idea if it would work tho

Bragi, The Old, shall join. SKAL!

Originally Posted by wufwugy

ive been trying to figure out a game to mod before xmas. something like all villgaers are vigs, there are no nights, no lynches, and like the village wins if they kill 3 wolves out of 5 or something

no idea if it would work tho

IN OR STFU

Fyi I hate the thought of shooting with 50% accuracy, its kinda pointless. Decide the rate of death you want and design accordingly, ie every other night vig is better than every night 50%. Same with Angel. I mean it could even be a case that a particular vig shot or Angel save could win or lose the game and suddenly that's down to chance, which sucks. Where's the bragging rights if you win by chance.

Where's the bragging rights if two villagers shoot at two villagers with 100% accuracy?

People die by choice not by chance. That's a clear difference.

That's the point of the game isn't it?

Eh I dunno, just my preference. I'd still prob wanna play.

I think it'll be fun. I'm going to have the setup vetted by a couple of experienced designers.

You should ensure at least one person dies each night. Even as a villager I want that. The result is what I'm looking forward to.

oh i don't think you have to worry about that

i want a 20-player game that ends in like 4-5 game days.

good luck getting 20 people

just in or STFU

i think it COULD work with 15 but let's try for more, plenty of notice and things should slow down for people after the holidays.

posting itt means im in fool

the last thing im going to do is pull a jyms and try to brag about not being in

In.

In
--------
Luco
OngBonga
Dhubermex
Keybored
Rong
BankItDrew
Wufwugy
JKDS
------
These guys are playing
Gabe
GatorJH
Rilla
Hoopy
Keith
MMM
--------
someone ask these people to play
Aubrey
Jyms
BigRed
SDM
Daven

Designing game to be finished in ~ 5 game days.

Yeah alright, can we wait a few days into January to start i.e. 5th-6th.

prob after that honestly

Originally Posted by baudib

These guys are playing
Gabe
GatorJH
Rilla
Hoopy
Keith
MMM

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I will not play this game.

Mod intervention mid-game pisses me off. (I am not without mistakes, and yes, my interaction with keybored in-game was terribad.)

I could be persuaded to accept this if there is an attempt made pre-game to define what the mod considers "playing well" and that the mods decisions in-game are referenced back to those criteria.

I do not like the "playing well" mechanic. More to the point, I do not want to play in a game for which I do not understand the rules.

The way you've stated things, you intend to not post what "playing well" means, even to you, pre-game.

The hidden rules are a deal-breaker for me. (Until I see them in action and the mechanic makes sense to me.)

I want to be clear that I am OUT of this game, as the rules are currently stated.

I'm not a fan of probabilities when it comes to actions. I lost a game at mafiascum that I would've won if it wasn't for chance. The night kill was determined by a bell curve probability which I didn't even attempt to understand. I just sent the night kill in. Well I sent in the kill at the wrong fucking time, if I'd have waited an hour it would've been successful and I'd have very likely won, especially as I targetted the seer's lookup.

Point is, when probability is what determines the outcome of a game, then there's no fucking point in playing. Not unless you're going to make money by manipulating the probabilities. We might as well just say whoever rolls a double six first wins. Brag that shit.

just stfu

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I do not like the "playing well" mechanic. More to the point, I do not want to play in a game for which I do not understand the rules.

The way you've stated things, you intend to not post what "playing well" means, even to you, pre-game.

The hidden rules are a deal-breaker for me. (Until I see them in action and the mechanic makes sense to me.)

I want to be clear that I am OUT of this game, as the rules are currently stated.

I obviously can't tell you what the actions required to earn powers will be because it will impact game play. For instance, if it's explicitly stated that the first person to post a will earn a vig shot, then it's doesn't work.

Originally Posted by baudib

just stfu

no u

Also, popcorn smileys do not equal playing well. I realise that's just a crappy example for the sake of argument, but you're gonna find people bolding and rescinding everyone, posting pics, all sorts of inane crap just to see what happens. It's not ww, it's let's outguess the mod.

Spectacularrrrrr had achievements that gave powers. Some people really liked that game, but I didnt think the achievement idea was really worth repeating. It also only worked imho because the game was expected to be sillier and more random than most games.

At the least, you should make a post in the dead thread (the first post, at game start) saying what the achievements are.

It should probably have the luck stuff in there too. Tho I agree that luck has no place in ww, but im a ww-oholic and will play anything.

For the record I loved spectacularrr.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Also, popcorn smileys do not equal playing well. I realise that's just a crappy example for the sake of argument, but you're gonna find people bolding and rescinding everyone, posting pics, all sorts of inane crap just to see what happens. It's not ww, it's let's outguess the mod.

i mean it's not going to be anything like that.

I'm having a game designer vet the role set right now.

One thing I'd like feedback on is this:

Do you want full knowledge of the roles in the game or do you want it to be secret? My plan was to make it vanilla ++ with roles known and explained in OP but if we don't do that it's a totally different game.

If roles are not known, I could create information specials who will get to learn key details and eliminate some of the other stuff.

I like hidden roles. If listed, I like when fake roles are inserted so wolves can fake out as them.

achievements are great. the one i got in that game (first post over 750 words) i wouldnt get anymore since i dont monster post anymore

I'm not totally sold on hidden roles because it's not something we normally do.

at POG when there are 50+ player mashes, no one knows any roles and everyone expects fucked up shit.

but if there's a godfather role or something, it could be totally game-breaking and even an information/reporter type role could miss binking on it and cost the village the game.

i'll have to think about ways to do it.

I prefer hidden roles to chance. I hate chance.

I mean, teasing me with a gun is just mean.

Originally Posted by baudib

I obviously can't tell you what the actions required to earn powers will be because it will impact game play. For instance, if it's explicitly stated that the first person to post a will earn a vig shot, then it's doesn't work.

This is exactly why I don't want to play. You wont clearly define, for whatever reason(s), what constitutes an example of "good play." So you're going to have to decide in the moment what counts. Even here, you site something that is absurdly not an example of "good play."

***
If this mechanic is made more transparent, I will consider playing.

I must stress that it's your vision, though. If you believe it will work, then do it.

I "stuck to my guns" with the Hot Shots, and I think they played out very well, mechanically. It was a lot of fun reading people's reactions in the game thread to the shots (including dhubs's fake shot).

I really want to have a godfather though.

I want the vigs to be as important or more important than the seer, potentially.

the element I want to stress is cooperation among the village as well as giving vanillas incentive to play in a team fashion and create ways to have more discussion.

Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

This is exactly why I don't want to play. You wont clearly define, for whatever reason(s), what constitutes an example of "good play." So you're going to have to decide in the moment what counts. Even here, you site something that is absurdly not an example of "good play."

***
If this mechanic is made more transparent, I will consider playing.

I must stress that it's your vision, though. If you believe it will work, then do it.

I "stuck to my guns" with the Hot Shots, and I think they played out very well, mechanically. It was a lot of fun reading people's reactions in the game thread to the shots (including dhubs's fake shot).

yeah tbh i've been thinking about this setup for like 3 months and i have 3rd parties overseeing it for balance.

I like to add one wolf that is seer proof. I prefer that to a miller. Hoopy's unknown miller was a good idea. But I still prefer godfather. Bonus town points for throwing the godfather under the bus.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I like to add one wolf that is seer proof. I prefer that to a miller. Hoopy's unknown miller was a good idea. But I still prefer godfather. Bonus town points for throwing the godfather under the bus.

yeah i don't want the game to be decided entirely upon the seer

the other thing i don't want is the game to be won on mass claim, there will be anti-mass claiming mechanisms built in.

I think MMM's issue, which is reasonable, is the "good play" clause. It's probably better for the clause to be "roles will be handed out based on predetermined factors known only by the mod"

As for crazy games, we like them. We just don't do them too often. JKDS' crazy game was awesome and Ong did a great one as well. I never mod crazy because that just isn't my style. So it really depends on what the mod wants to do. We'll play anything as long as it is WW

I too am not a fan of chance. Unless Rong has a gun. Then he needs no chance lest we stand no chance

Originally Posted by baudib

yeah i don't want the game to be decided entirely upon the seer

the other thing i don't want is the game to be won on mass claim, there will be anti-mass claiming mechanisms built in.

I'd just give the wolves safeclaims, ie give them each a role that definitely doesn't exist in the game. The rest is down to their skill.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

I'd just give the wolves safeclaims, ie give them each a role that definitely doesn't exist in the game. The rest is down to their skill.

is that like cover roles?

I dunno what a cover role is. But let's say there's no tracker in the game. Well tracker is a safeclaim, because a wolf can claim it and be sure to not be counterclaimed by another tracker. Whether he spews bullshit information out that can be proven wrong is the wolf's problem, not the mod's.

among the early feedback i got from a game designer is that my roleset should give a lot of flexibility for interesting fake claims.

A tracker safeclaim would be an excellent safeclaim for a wolf tracker, because his information is true, and he knows there's no town tracker. That's where it can get very tricky for the village.

keep in mind that we almost never fakeclaim here. baud was right when he described the ftr cult as wolfy villager.

anyways ive never seen a fakeclaim work here. in a game where fakeclaim looked like more of a thing, gator almost got away with it, but still didn't. we don't know how to fakeclaim. we don't know where to start, what sorts of roles, what a successful claim is supposed to do, etc

Originally Posted by baudib

among the early feedback i got from a game designer is that my roleset should give a lot of flexibility for interesting fake claims.

This is one reason I like role madness games. Crazy roles can exist. I can't remember what gator faked in my world war game but it was creative for sure. It's a shame he was an outed baddie.

that gator one was so epic. there was no way it would work, but the fact that he tried to make it work made him look good

Fakeclaims here tend to be one of three things...

1) an outed wolf trying to stay alive for an extra day or two
2) a desperate wolf trying to hunt the seer
3) a bored villager having fun

I've not seen a wolf win thanks to a fakeclaim here. I've seen it at mafiascum in certain formats.

i've never fake claimed myself.

in that game with Gator and Keith, I should have fake claimed seer with Aubrey = W but I didn't even think of it.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

that gator one was so epic. there was no way it would work, but the fact that he tried to make it work made him look good

He said to me in pm that he either gives up or fakes for fun. I'm glad he chose the latter.

Originally Posted by baudib

i've never fake claimed myself.

in that game with Gator and Keith, I should have fake claimed seer with Aubrey = W but I didn't even think of it.

yeah i was honestly surprised there was no fake. it would have been tough, but a good fake strategy could have gotten a win. especially since aubrey was so afk

Ive reviewed the spectacularrrr thread. Im apparently grumpy with old age, and dont remember how much fun achievements were.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

what a successful claim is supposed to do, etc

In addition to what ong listed, they have very important game-balancing purposes. If there are too many villager power roles (3+ imo), then wolves need some way to fake being one of them without getting into a pissing match with the actual role.

I've never played a game with probability things, and its clear that Baudib put a lot of thought and work into this game. I think we should rally behind him and try it.

I rallied behind ur mom last night

One day someone's gonna say something like that and get the response "seriously your timing sucks, she died yesterday".

It will be epic.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

One day someone's gonna say something like that and get the response "seriously your timing sucks, she died yesterday".

It will be epic.

til the UK is twenty years behind the US

Dude if we were 20 years behind USA then we wouldn't even be a country yet.

burn?

role i had in that mishmash was village interrogator

you get to jailkeep 1 player for the night (no actions, no actions against) and can interrogate him out of thread (skype chat) for 5 hours.

at the end of 5 hours you can release him or kill him

i fell asleep and didn't wake up in time to interrogate the guy, so i killed him. he was the seer.

Originally Posted by baudib

i fell asleep and didn't wake up in time to interrogate the guy, so i killed him. he was the seer.

Fucking hi 5.

Gator was in that game. Someone in the dead chat made a vid of a song about me killing him.

so the first player to shoot wuf gets a special power?
IN

Originally Posted by daven

so the first player to shoot wuf gets a special power?
IN

the funny thing is if we were wolves together im pretty sure we'd be unstoppable