Congratulations to the Ultimate Villagers

Villagers win! Crazy game.

aubrey - seer
bid - priest
JKDS - tough guy
Luco - cursed

rong, wuf - reg villager

Gator - Wolf

Dead threads.

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/7TSPbhikp5r7h

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/uxnsDd5AKYLh

Wolf den

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/g25CiayHm2V

gg village, hoopy superb modding m8

I crumbed both gator and baud along the way, guess I was too subtle. At the end I realised that if I died it would confirm all the seers lookups so I couldnt die first, was hoping for a hail mary conversion tonight but it doesnt matter, it was over the instant the seer gave her lookups and I wasnt in them.

Been thinking and actually I think this setup favors the wolves a little. cursed plus miller is huge, and if aubrey had looked me up instead of rong or bid or jkds we would have still had decent equity even post outing

Plus, if I had been online at daybreak after the bigred nom I could have snap self lynched before the seer outed...

I cost the wolves this game, we probably win ~80% if we hit Aubrey, and Gator wanted to hit Aubrey before I went diggin around a bit more. Gator's instincts are incredible and I should have just said, "OK."

************************************************** ****

Luco I wanted to nom you n2 because your play was so closely resembling your seer game from last year.

I couldn't justify nomming you over Gabe though. When did you realize I was a wolf?

We never had you as a Cursed candidate. Even though I said it in the game thread I didn't believe it. When Luco was grilling me over a "Cursed POV" slip I was convinced he was vanilla.

Really NO ONE in this game was a good seer candidate.

The way the lookups fell was going to be really tough, even though the Cursed could have been anyone after conversion Luco was more likely to be lynched than the others.

**********************
The Cursed has sort of a trollish win condition. Wuf pretty much hated the role when he was Turncoat. He should be given something to do at night at the minimum, plus maybe give him some lookups so he knows who not to lynch.

it was a super lonely role, i ended up spamming hoopy with DO NOT REPLY pms just to keep me sane

i'm really proud that i was able to make myself useful because i was literally on psychedelics for a good 75% of the time i was participating in this game. i suppose now is a good time to admit that.

good game everyone!! JKDS and wufwugy were sharp as fuck.

GG Aubrey you're a lot of fun.

everyone else was a tad too earnest this game.

Aubrey's lookups were elite, she could clear all the mislynch candidates. But she left almost no clues who her lookups were and if she died before outing the village loses a ton of the time.

MVP Dhuber IMO

I cannot believe Wuf was vanilla, I really like how he played the game.

It felt cowardly to kill Gabe early, he was active and involved and fun.

GG

thanks hoopy

Originally Posted by baudib

I cost the wolves this game, we probably win ~80% if we hit Aubrey, and Gator wanted to hit Aubrey before I went diggin around a bit more. Gator's instincts are incredible and I should have just said, "OK."

************************************************** ****

Luco I wanted to nom you n2 because your play was so closely resembling your seer game from last year.

I couldn't justify nomming you over Gabe though. When did you realize I was a wolf?

We never had you as a Cursed candidate. Even though I said it in the game thread I didn't believe it. When Luco was grilling me over a "Cursed POV" slip I was convinced he was vanilla.

Really NO ONE in this game was a good seer candidate.

The way the lookups fell was going to be really tough, even though the Cursed could have been anyone after conversion Luco was more likely to be lynched than the others.

**********************
The Cursed has sort of a trollish win condition. Wuf pretty much hated the role when he was Turncoat. He should be given something to do at night at the minimum, plus maybe give him some lookups so he knows who not to lynch.

Lol its funny that you never had me as cursed because I never really had you as wolf until aubrey outed

I was worried about making crumbs obvious after the way everyone went apeshit over mmm, plus daven was like a crumb bloodhound, bastard

Oh and keiths bushy tail thing was absolutely howling, despite what i said in thread

Originally Posted by baudib

I cost the wolves this game, we probably win ~80% if we hit Aubrey, and Gator wanted to hit Aubrey before I went diggin around a bit more. Gator's instincts are incredible and I should have just said, "OK."

did gator sense that i was a special? if so, how?

lol there was another time i was a seer in an earlier game and i was being a total obvious doofus about it and the wolves still didn't nom me even tho it was beyond obvious. they had some weird reason for it. i think i obscured myself well this game, but still, interesting. history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme, said mark twain while huffing and puffing over a game of werewolf.

Gator is just a sick freaking wolf. He caught the whiff of you being seer on D3 based on nothing. Literally like 2 sentences.

This was when people like Dhuber, Wuf, Luco and JKDS were still viable candidates. They eliminated themselves in very obvious ways.

So it came down to you or BigRed. But BR as seer was based only on you being exactly Cursed, so it was a bad decision on my part.

If I were MMM I could have made a detailed decision tree and figured out we had to nom you over BR.

yeah Aubrey, if you were even slightly more active I'm sure Gator would have totally snagged you.

MMM, key and daven all felt villager to me. the daven lynch was a mild surprise because i figured the d1 voting woulf have cleared him but jkds and wuf just pounced. I thought bid was wolf for a long time and although i had monstr leaning v I sniffed out gator within a few posts. Baud i ended up defending you because i thought i was buddying up to a villager lol

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

did gator sense that i was a special? if so, how?

lol there was another time i was a seer in an earlier game and i was being a total obvious doofus about it and the wolves still didn't nom me even tho it was beyond obvious. they had some weird reason for it. i think i obscured myself well this game, but still, interesting. history doesn't repeat itself, but it does rhyme, said mark twain while huffing and puffing over a game of werewolf.

I nailed you because you were TOO disengaged from the game. From being a wolf together I know how competitive you are and, even if life was busy, you would try to engage. It felt like you were trying to stay out of the limelight a little too much.

Oh the Daven lynch was pure AIDS.

Daven should have been lock-cleared based on D1 wagons and the noms.

Ong was correct about the wagons and his nom should point to Daven being a villager.
Gabe's nom was mostly about him being possible seer (or Cursed) and if Gabe is seer, Daven has to be his lookup.

If I were a villager I would have argued hard against his lynch.

Originally Posted by Luco

MMM, key and daven all felt villager to me. the daven lynch was a mild surprise because i figured the d1 voting woulf have cleared him but jkds and wuf just pounced. I thought bid was wolf for a long time and although i had monstr leaning v I sniffed out gator within a few posts. Baud i ended up defending you because i thought i was buddying up to a villager lol

I agree Luco, one of the problems I had this game was the villagers looked VERY villagery for a change. Also, if you read the wolves den comments you will see that just scanning the page when I got in the game I noticed how wolfish Keith looked. I am surprised it took that long to lynch him.

While Baud did an excellent job at looking like a villager, when you read them from a wolfs perspective there are some good nuggets there.

Luco, tbh I wasn't even looking for cursed nuggets until we got the seer. In retrospect that was probably bad because I could have helped avoid a potential lynch.

hm.. well a big reason i was so disengaged was because i was vacationing in santa fe. i wonder if you would have still had that sense if you knew that. however i suppose there is some truth to me not wanting to be too loose in what i was saying, because it would have been super shitty for everyone if i got lynched due to lazy and therefore inadvertently wolfy posting.

anyway i'm just nitpicking. i just get curious about the nuances in how you all think.

i got such a kick out of Keith going nuts about my medusa comment, shit was hilarious

A few things off the top of my head:

mvp goes to one of: wuf, jkds, luco
I was convinced baudib was a villager all game, kudos
nj aubrey. No matter how well/poorly or engaged/disengaged you played - the bottom line is that your seer info that you were able to share was the clinching factor in this game.
Lastly, this was my second angel game and my second angel game where I got skunked on protects. Fml lol

Dhuber's super seery D3 was gamebreaking. We should have lost right there but the Daven speed lynch day gave us another shot.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

While Baud did an excellent job at looking like a villager, when you read them from a wolfs perspective there are some good nuggets there.

this game is as close as I can come to replicating my vanillager game I think. I've never lynched a wolf as a villager without hemming and hawing. no one here actually knows what my real villager game looks like though so it's not that important.

anyone else notice how much Wuf was cursing on D2?

Originally Posted by GatorJH

I nailed you because you were TOO disengaged from the game. From being a wolf together I know how competitive you are and, even if life was busy, you would try to engage. It felt like you were trying to stay out of the limelight a little too much.

This. I'm a bit surprised at how little attention aubrey got. I tried to point out that she's wicked smart in the game, and she just wasn't showing it like I expected. Something was off.

BID: You played well, but I have similar comments as to aubrey. Last game you were much more involved. I put you squarely in the not-VV and not-W camp, so you were always looking like a Village PR to me. Hoopy told us in the dead thread that you were the Priest early on in the game, so my read was severely tainted.

baudib - great performance. I had you squarely as V until Hoopy dropped the link to the wolf chat. I lolled at myself when I saw your name. gg

ong and I both thought wuf was wolfy as sin for most of the early game. Didn't wuf say he was bored of playing VV and wanted to mix up his game a bit? If so, that poem on daven was funny in the irony. Too rich.

The lynching of keybored was bad, I thought. I don't know how people could think key would play such a see-through game as wolf/cursed after his last performance as W. Maybe I'm just tuned in to key now that he's beaten me so badly. Lol that baud got me just as good this game.

Dhubs Keith vote was epic. dhubs, you beast!

MVP is hard. Many great games were played. I'd vote baudib, I think. Dhubs is up there.

Originally Posted by baudib

anyone else notice how much Wuf was cursing on D2?

I was laughing so much at how you were looking at wuf's cursing as evidence of him being CV. I mean.. wuf is wild enough to pull something like that, but the way you were waffling over it was quite amusing.

Hoopy, how do you think it went? and sorry for the spam

Im kinda glad I didnt try and fake being a seer/cursed. This game gets complicated really quickly once a wolf kill is blocked. Was the seer targeted? Cursed recruited? Tough guy hit? Shit gets cray

@Hoops: I think this game was well balanced, and handled well. I made an inappropriate comment about hating seer games, which I stand by, but this game mitigated that pretty well.

Originally Posted by baudib

anyone else notice how much Wuf was cursing on D2?

i was piiiiiissed at rilla

but ofc, village won because of the talkless nights. they blow for enjoyment of the game, but theyre as pro-village as all getout

Wuf I went back to Gold Rush and found out how many times you said "fuck" "shit" "ass" "motherfucker" etc.

and the difference was like 50-0.

you did such a great job of repping seer/Cursed that we assumed you had to be the angel trying to block a night kill.

Originally Posted by JKDS

Im kinda glad I didnt try and fake being a seer/cursed. This game gets complicated really quickly once a wolf kill is blocked. Was the seer targeted? Cursed recruited? Tough guy hit? Shit gets cray

I'm reading the wolfthread. Turns out, my conviction on keith was totally faking being the seer. Thats neat!

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

i'm really proud that i was able to make myself useful because i was literally on psychedelics for a good 75% of the time i was participating in this game. i suppose now is a good time to admit that.

good game everyone!! JKDS and wufwugy were sharp as fuck.

My heroine (with an all improatnt e).

Originally Posted by baudib

Oh the Daven lynch was pure AIDS.

Daven should have been lock-cleared based on D1 wagons and the noms.

Ong was correct about the wagons and his nom should point to Daven being a villager.
Gabe's nom was mostly about him being possible seer (or Cursed) and if Gabe is seer, Daven has to be his lookup.

If I were a villager I would have argued hard against his lynch.

Daven lynch was expert. It closing so fast was a problem since Aubrey was away and may have outed, but not only was Daven an incredibly strong lynch but Gator was caught because of it. Aubrey's outing at the beginning of the next day gave me no need to explain why Gator was a baddy. TBH I thought he was cursed, but before Aubrey out, the baddies were squarely between the three actual baddies

If anybody cares I can pull up what proved Daven was posting as a wolf. Role PM is about win condition, yet it has no bearing whatsoever on how the player chooses to play, even if inadvertent. As a forum full of a bunch of poker players, this should be easy to understand. Results orientation: Daven wasn't a wolf. Non-results orientation: he was wolfing hard. Of course, there were a handful of pretty decent things that helped clear him, but they were not solid (just your behavior on the Keith wagon was not good enough to clear you). I was watching him for one specific thing that he should never have done as a villager and everybody agrees (assuming him as well), yet he did it.

We had no choice to lynch him

Originally Posted by baudib

Wuf I went back to Gold Rush and found out how many times you said "fuck" "shit" "ass" "motherfucker" etc.

and the difference was like 50-0.

you did such a great job of repping seer/Cursed that we assumed you had to be the angel trying to block a night kill.

I haven't read the threads yet, I'm guessing Hoops laid it all out

Pretty cool that neither wolf paid any attention to daven's woopsy post in the wolf den where he outs luco as the cursed.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Pretty cool that neither wolf paid any attention to daven's woopsy post in the wolf den where he outs luco as the cursed.

I ignored it as best I could because either he was trying to intentionally be a dick or it was info we weren't supposed to have legally.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

We had no choice to lynch him

you're wrong. daven was arguably as mechanically cleared as you can be without being seer peeked. That lynch was LOL terrible.

When not one but TWO noms clear him, he's a lock villager always. He's not FPSing 2 night kills to make himself look good.

the fact that no one really picked up on this was mind-boggling. i was being a better villager than most of the village in pointing this out.

I was grateful because it gave us a true mulligan.

Originally Posted by baudib

JFC how does Aubrey vote to lynch JKDS, her confirmed lookup. JFC how is this possible.

Gator, I'm sorry I found that "catch" on Aubrey. It's my fault.

Wahahahahahaha

Originally Posted by baudib

you're wrong. daven was arguably as mechanically cleared as you can be without being seer peeked. That lynch was LOL terrible.

When not one but TWO noms clear him, he's a lock villager always. He's not FPSing 2 night kills to make himself look good.

the fact that no one really picked up on this was mind-boggling. i was being a better villager than most of the village in pointing this out.

I was grateful because it gave us a true mulligan.

Those lynches didnt clear him whatsoever. You were far more mechanically cleared than Daven, if we're talking wagonomics. If we're talking some other stuff, Daven went hardcore in the village direction, to the point that I thought he is mostly likely not a wolf, but then he did one specific thing that everybody here agrees he should NEVER do as a villager. That's why he died

Other than that, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on what a good lynch is. I think lynching villagers is good policy. But they have to be the right villagers. The village does not win the game by killing a wolf or two, they win the game by boxing the wolves into corners and killing them all.

If you're somebody who can specifically read Daven so well that you know that he will do terribly wolf things while village, then it was probably a bad lynch, but other than that, we had soooooooo much clarity come from it.

Nice try on the win guys. Win one lose one...

As for the nomming strategy, I think this format made looking for the seer high risk with just moderate or low reward. You guys went pretty extreme in that direction, which meant that when you missed, players like Dhubs and Bigred were nommed instead of JKDS or me. The thread narrative got away from you, and I think if you had even gotten Aubrey on the Bigred nom night, JKDS and I would have done so much damage that it would have come down to an epic showdown

I think from your perspective, Aubrey's reveals made a huge difference, but to me they didn't. They certainly made the game muuuuuuch easier for the village, but I think the next lynch would have been Gator if she had died. Perhaps Luco. Definitely not Baud (unless JKDS got a sick read on him). I said very little about you three in the game because my con was a long one. I knew that you guys were playing strangely, but you were also playing well enough to keep out of the light. The village kinda has no choice but to attack those at the forefront, so some wolves can sit back and look like they're sitting pretty yet really the villagers are collecting data that they're gonna use later

One example of this would be stuff I told Hoopy, about how I didn't have a lock-read on Baud, but I was highly cognizant of the narrative and was getting into a situation where I could create a lock-read when the time came for it to be right. Similar was true of Luco and Gator

Wolfing is VERY hard. Wolves can look fantastic in the early and mid game but then get crushed in the late game. It's that exponential function

lol ofc bid was the priest

self protecting nightly im sure. tbh i figured it was him, or mb jkds

LOL WTF


I am flat out telling you why we killed Ong and Gabe. Ong knew the truth. We thought Gabe's thin reads on Daven meant he was the seer. We had no other seer read that day.

ergo if we think Gabe is the seer with a Daven = V lookup, you cannot kill Daven.

lynching villagers is bad.

the wolves got trapped in a corner because everyone who wasn't a wolf was a seer-confirmed villager for the love of God.

what do you learn from a 6-1 wagon?

Originally Posted by baudib

LOL WTF


I am flat out telling you why we killed Ong and Gabe. Ong knew the truth. We thought Gabe's thin reads on Daven meant he was the seer. We had no other seer read that day.

ergo if we think Gabe is the seer with a Daven = V lookup, you cannot kill Daven.

lynching villagers is bad.

the wolves got trapped in a corner because everyone who wasn't a wolf was a seer-confirmed villager for the love of God.

what do you learn from a 6-1 wagon?

im not sure what you're getting at

Originally Posted by Luco

it was a super lonely role, i ended up spamming hoopy with DO NOT REPLY pms just to keep me sane

If it makes you feel any better wuf was using my inbox as his creative space, some crazy theories were created.

Lynching villagers is not bad. If it was, there would be no good play since all good play involves lynching villagers

Winning is a process. I feel like I have credibility on this since I've been on the winning side with villagers so many times

Wuf, the fact that you have a history of playing bad and getting there does not validate your belief that lynching villagers is OK.

From a win probability viewpoint, any time you are a villager and mislynch a fellow villager, your win equity decreases.

Originally Posted by Luco

gg village, hoopy superb modding m8

Been thinking and actually I think this setup favors the wolves a little. cursed plus miller is huge, and if aubrey had looked me up instead of rong or bid or jkds we would have still had decent equity even post outing

Thanks guv.

I agree that this setup really weakens the seer, especially since once they out they only get 1 more look up. If we played again I wouldn't have both cursed and miller in the game, aubrey played well but it would have been so easy for bigred or Luco to scupper her plans.

Originally Posted by baudib

Wuf, the fact that you have a history of playing bad and getting there does not validate the fact that lynching villagers is OK.

You assume the premise that I must be playing bad. It would be quite anomalous if my play was bad in all this.

From a win probability viewpoint, any time you are a villager and mislynch a fellow villager, your win equity decreases.

That's a narrow and insufficient way to view it. We're not playing dice. We're not randomizing. Variability is a factor, but the core of the game is the process that sets up the best lynch choices in the endgame. It should be assumed that a village that is playing incredibly well will still lynch a handful of villagers. The goal, that which makes those villager lynches pro-village, is the information they provide. Not information about that players specifically, but about what that means for others. Daven's lynch basically cleared BID and made Gator look very wolf. This is exactly what we want out of early/mid game lynches. We don't necessarily want to lynch wolves then, we want to box the wolves in and lynch them later. Granted, too much in one direction is problematic

Anyways, I don't mean to argue. We disagree on most things about WW structure. I thought this was a good game all around, and I'm not mad at anybody or about anything. I don't want to give the impression that I am

I'm not mad at all, I really like how you played. The fact you were trying to get nommed as a vanilla was so out of character for you I thought you couldn't be vanilla.

Like, if we nommed you after you declared Aubrey a villager, Aubrey should never be lynched. It's the same principle. She's seer-hunt cleared, and so was Daven.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

lol ofc bid was the priest

self protecting nightly im sure. tbh i figured it was him, or mb jkds

Fwiw I think I protected in the following order:
rong
luco
gator
aubrey

something like that.

Originally Posted by baudib

I'm not mad at all, I really like how you played.

Thanks. That means a lot. Seriously. I try to not fuck things up. I was reaaaally close to doing something really dumb, but it would ultimately hurt my team in a way that I could avoid, and I don't ever want to do that. So I just had to try to get nommed

Funny how it worked "so well" that you thought it was deliberate. I did kinda ham it up at one point.

Originally Posted by BankItDrew

Fwiw I think I protected in the following order:
rong
luco
gator
aubrey

something like that.

wow awesome job

but to be sure, your 'tect order should have been

wuf
wuf
wufmom
wuf

Lol

I mean I get the fact that Gabe getting nommed early doesn't signify much to most people.

From my standpoint, I would have argued heavily against nomming Gabe if it didn't look like he could be the seer. I was trying to argue against it anyway but didn't really have a better seer candidate.

villager Baud would have concluded that Daven had to be a villager based on those kills though.

Also I'd like to say to Daven, you have a lot of strengths as a player. Your villager, special, and wolf games are basically merged (which is something nobody else can say, maybe Keith to a degree), and you often have some really sick reads

But man, if you tell me you think I'm the seer, then tell me you thought i looked up a wolf (cough* "symmetry post), then tell me that my bold choice is wrong, and finally put your bold on the player you told me you thought I looked up, we're boarding that lynchtrain, next stop: davencity

Originally Posted by Luco

Hoopy, how do you think it went? and sorry for the spam

It was weird having absolute knowledge right from the start of the game. People played very differently to how I expected, you included. I guess I expected the cursed to play more blatantly and try to get recruited early.

Couple of thoughts.

1) I'm surprised aubrey got away with being so low key all game.

2) Quick wagons are still generally bad for the village.

3) This game is getting deeper all the time.

4) Holy shit were the wolves close to killing aubrey on n4. Village tears itself apart after that imo.

5) I had to remind myself once or twice that baudib was a wolf. When he controls his spewing he's a very good wolf.

6) dhuber played well and is probably the village MVP on this one.

Originally Posted by JKDS

Im kinda glad I didnt try and fake being a seer/cursed. This game gets complicated really quickly once a wolf kill is blocked. Was the seer targeted? Cursed recruited? Tough guy hit? Shit gets cray

@Hoops: I think this game was well balanced, and handled well. I made an inappropriate comment about hating seer games, which I stand by, but this game mitigated that pretty well.

Glad you enjoyed it. So you favor pure vanilla games? Or just removing the seer as a role altogether?

Also the reason monstrman was replaced with Gator was not due to him slanking or throwing a wobbler. Baudib said he had some bad personal stuff going on so I fished around for a replacement and of course Gator just had to be a wolf again.

Replace > modkill in most situations imo.

So monstr if you read this no hard feelings dude, come back and play another game sometime.

@Baud, re daven: it should have been obv wolves were seer hunting. I agree. But that doesnt clear daven. I see how it might, but gabe had wolf reads too. The n2 gabe nom could have meant monster was a wolf, daven was a villager, or something else entirely. I mean, ong didnt appear seer-y, so to confidently say that gabe was killed for being a seer, and that it was because the wolves know daven is a villager, is a huge stretch.

But i didnt buy that daven couldnt be a wolf based on ong's wagonomics theory either. I read it, i saw it, i understood it, but sometimes W-V wagons do happen this way. And so many people wanted to lynch MMM for bs reasons, that its hard to not think that there was some ulterior motive for them doing that...like avoiding lynching daven.

Then there was all the wolfy things he did, and the relationship (now clearly imaginary) that he had to keith. He had to go. I "slipped" during that process b/c i was having serious doubts about daven's wolfiness. I began to think that he could say these things and think this way as a villager, and we have a huge history of misreading eachother. But he still has to die; I agree with wuf on that.

Originally Posted by JKDS

@Baud, re daven: it should have been obv wolves were seer hunting. I agree. But that doesnt clear daven. I see how it might, but gabe had wolf reads too. The n2 gabe nom could have meant monster was a wolf, daven was a villager, or something else entirely. I mean, ong didnt appear seer-y, so to confidently say that gabe was killed for being a seer, and that it was because the wolves know daven is a villager, is a huge stretch.

But i didnt buy that daven couldnt be a wolf based on ong's wagonomics theory either. I read it, i saw it, i understood it, but sometimes W-V wagons do happen this way. And so many people wanted to lynch MMM for bs reasons, that its hard to not think that there was some ulterior motive for them doing that...like avoiding lynching daven.

Then there was all the wolfy things he did, and the relationship (now clearly imaginary) that he had to keith. He had to go. I "slipped" during that process b/c i was having serious doubts about daven's wolfiness. I began to think that he could say these things and think this way as a villager, and we have a huge history of misreading eachother. But he still has to die; I agree with wuf on that.

Daven was amazingly wolfy there's no denying that.

But if Gabe flipped seer I think you would have had to assume Daven was his peek.

speaking of Gabe how come you guys didn't listen to him?

I'm going to start a new club: VWTLTG - Villagers Willing to Listen to Gabe

The idea that Daven was cleared based on the first two vilwagons or vilnoms or whatever it was blows my mind. Those, um, never clear players

Ideas and placement don't clear somebody. Doing shit they couldn't do as a wolf clears them. Me and JKDS were cleared by the Keith wagon for this reason. Baud had strong credibility from it, but there was so more to the story with his behavior regarding Keith that it didn't clear him. Baud's behavior was basically very smart wolfing, but still not perfection. It's dangerous stuff clearing players. You gotta be absolutely certain. Additionally, Daven is a very tricky wolf. He should be expected to do things that look like they clear him.

Originally Posted by baudib

speaking of Gabe how come you guys didn't listen to him?

I'm going to start a new club: VWTLTG - Villagers Willing to Listen to Gabe

I realized we had to get around to it instead of address immediately. Also you definitely swayed the narrative at many times. Gator slumped into a hole where he was either a busy villager or a discouraged wolf. I was waiting for more information to see which one it was

Honestly I thought he was the cursed because he seemed so discouraged and wishy washy on his reads, which is one of the main ways the cursed naturally plays. After the Keith lynch, we were going in a different direction so I slept on that info

But yeah, I told Gabe he gets mad cred for this if he's right, so GABE GETTIN DAT MAD CRED

It's now between Gabe and JKDS for the best natural soulreaders

Oh btw JKDS, I remember how you said if only in the last game you have somebody who would listen to ya. High five

Oh sure, keep lynching Daven then. This is why things like Gator getting vigged after Ong left him as his obvious peek happen.

I can't believe you don't try to get info from the night kills. And you guys still want to argue against leaving better seer cover so that the seer can be blatantly explicit?

Wuf left a terrific fake peek.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

the only lynch i am wholly not cool with is aubrey. she's a villager

Originally Posted by wufwugy

keith is just pissed since he knows that after i die, a lockvillager whom they will never want to nom will go unlynched for the whole game

if Wuf gets nommed after this, Aubrey is 99% villager.

Originally Posted by hoopy

Originally Posted by jkds

Im kinda glad I didnt try and fake being a seer/cursed. This game gets complicated really quickly once a wolf kill is blocked. Was the seer targeted? Cursed recruited? Tough guy hit? Shit gets cray

@Hoops: I think this game was well balanced, and handled well. I made an inappropriate comment about hating seer games, which I stand by, but this game mitigated that pretty well.

Glad you enjoyed it. So you favor pure vanilla games? Or just removing the seer as a role altogether?

Theres two games I like, depending on the mood.
1) Pure Vanilla Games: These are the most skill intensive games you can have, and everything is decided by how good the players are. I'm competitive, obv, and I see these as the most competitive type of ww game.

2) Role Madness Games: These are the opposite. These games, for those unaware, have every player with a role that does something. They're usually short games, but people can goof off more in them without worrying about losing the game for their team. The games are so crazy that even if a person was -EV, it was probably incredibly insignificant due to the amount of luck involved.

I dont like standard seers, because they make the pure vanilla games less competitive. While they are part of traditional werewolf, they move away from what it is all about. The majority is supposed to be uninformed, and the seer introduces certainty where there was none. Whats worse, is that the look ups could be 100% random, and the power is not diluted. There is certainly skill involved in hiding from wolves and staying alive (angels mitigate this, curse the unlimited angel + seer combo), and skill involved in finding the seer, but its just such a strong power, that the wolve's entire night strategy is governed by finding him now. It lessens the value of the village as well. The wolves arent kicking themselves for leaving me, wuf, etc alive. Theyre kicking themselves for not finding the seer. My role, wuf's role, and any other villager's role in this game meant nothing in comparison. The person who rando'd the seer stayed alive, and posted results. Thats all that matters, and for someone like me, who is super competitive, and who wants to win and gloat about how he lynched a wolf or knew x was an obv villager, its irritating.

/rant.

I said the comment was inappropriate though, because my feelings towards the seer are immaterial. I will play games with seers in them, and im not gonna advocate for their removal. And they are, afterall, standard in werewolf. My personal preference is for games to be like this, where the seer's results are weakened, or games where the wolves have a better ability of finding the seer.

I find immense difficulty in determining what the noms mean. We used to do it a ton in the past, and we were almost always wrong. Noms mean sooooooo many different things

um, the noms are the wolves trying to hit the seer.

yes, obv. i mean beyond that, which i thought you said

btw I don't think me voting Keith was smart wolfing. I happened to be active in the thread at the time, trying to get Wuf lynched, and JKDS trapped me. There wasn't much I could do.

it was actually a really terrible spot to bus, and the fact that no one even gave me credit for it was super tilting.

Originally Posted by baudib

Daven was amazingly wolfy there's no denying that.

But if Gabe flipped seer I think you would have had to assume Daven was his peek.

I dont remember enough about day 1-2. They blur together. Im sure that if it seemed like gabe cleared daven with his day2 posts, then yes. But if it seems like he still had a hard on for monster, then no.

Originally Posted by baudib

speaking of Gabe how come you guys didn't listen to him?

I'm going to start a new club: VWTLTG - Villagers Willing to Listen to Gabe

On the same token, why didnt we listen to Dhuber? Dhuber has been crushing these games, readwise. This is the second in a row (maybe more?) where he both sniffed out wolves, and villagers, when others couldnt.

But like dhuber, we cant assume that the reads of dead people are accurate. Sure, theyre lynched for a reason. But whats the reason? Did the wolves think dhuber was a seer because of he hinted at something in post xxx, or did they think he was a seer because he went after keith d3? Its impossible to tell, usually, why someone was nommed (wihtout den info). And given that we post villager and wolf reads, its hard to tell which side of that list mattered...if any of it did.

But really, it comes down to this. Whose reads are better, your current reads...or those of a deadman who relied on less information than you have. When the argument is just "ong thought jkds is a wolf", all I see is an ad hom fallacy, and I ignore it. When the argument is "dhuber thinks keith is a wolf for x, y, and z, and these are still valid points"...I can get behind that. I can use that to form my own opinion, one that meshes well with how I interpreted the game to be going.

If you dont buy that...then from here on out, whenever I say "Im using my one time, follow me and lynch x", i demand ppl listen

Also, i never got the chance to point it out...

Keith using WIFOM to try and clear himself when he was about to die made me chuckle. He had a bunch of votes, then I think he said like "x is cursed" , then a little later, said "why would I say x is cursed, instead of fake out as seer? Wolves would fake out as seer".

Idk, i was arguing wifom for some stupid reason with mmm, and then i see a clear example of it in thread.

Dhuber was incredibly seery. I'm still rustled that he wasn't the real seer.

Ong in the dead thread spotted it immediately.

Originally Posted by baudib

I ignored it as best I could because either he was trying to intentionally be a dick or it was info we weren't supposed to have legally.

TBH I didn't even see it.

Actually Baud you have a great point about how the Gabe nom could clear Daven if it could be confirmed that Gabe's lookup would have been Daven. However, 2 things, it's almost unheard of on FTR for noms to happen for those reasons, and personally I always look for specials for different reasons (largely due to a lack of experience wolfing, but also due to my intuition working differently)

If I had seen that it's possible I would have thought Daven had more village equity. Unlikely though. Notice that after he called me the seer I didn't want to lynch him. That would have been so weird for a wolf to do. But then he didn't act like he believed it. Like, go back over it, he truly acted like he did not believe it. It's no wonder I was so in favor of his lynching after that.

Finished the dead thread. Gonna have to do the wolf thread tomorrow

Thanks so much for modding Hoops! You did a great job, and I hoped you got a kick out of those PMs. Some of the reads were great, some were not. Par for the course



I'm not sure what there is to say about the talking nights. I don't care either way, but I was steaming when the change was made because it was made for the purpose of them being considered too pro-village. I think that couldn't be further from the truth. Go back over the games here and you'll find the village loses almost all of the talking night games. It is sooooooo hard to play villager when you're not given a rest. Wolves do not need rests. They are not confused, they are not wracking their minds trying to figure things out. They're just deflecting and posting relatively less stressful things. I don't see how a silent night helps their special hunting either.

Silent nights give the village an incredible power by way of power down and reassessment. Wolfing is stressful for short bits, but villagers are stressed for long time periods, and without silent nights to give them time to reconfigure their thoughts, I think they're in a huge hole

At this point, even though I always really enjoyed talking nights, I think I may vote against bringing them back because of how badly they hurt the village chances of winning. MMM's point about overheating is exactly correct. The village lost the game he was talking about, and it was largely because the village was overheated and the wolves had deflected all suspicions by way of the extra talking. And for this game, I think our equity hugely drops with talking nights. Instead of calming down and retooling, some of us would have come out the gates blasting right after the lynches, and we would have been wrong and doubling down on our wrongness at a much greater rate

BTW I got significantly less hatin than I deserved, and I thank you guys for that. I act like an ass but my heart is made of cotton candy.

I played this game bombastically, even more than usual. The normal reasons aside, it was part of trying look like the seer or cursed. I wanted the wolves to think I was being stupid and overconfident since some of my tells were way over the top. Some of it was also letting off steam

That said, I really enjoyed this game. Snipping at people is fun