Congrats to the drug smuggling village

So Wuf turned out to be the village's biggest liability and savior all in one game. Was nice to have the final day being a face off between the person widely considered the greatest wolf we have vs the person widely considered the greatest villager we have, and judging it the person widely considered the greatest liability for the village.

Turned into a good game though, in spite of a rocky start and some terrible modding.

Feel free to comment on game roles and setup etc.

"savior" is kinda extreme since i think the smugglers had a big edge since pretty early in the game

rilla put in the work and got rewarded. let it be a lesson to those in the future: if you do everything you can to help village then people will see you as a villager! its like magic

i feel like being a confirmed villager made me not want to "work" as hard at times


next game i play im going to use WIFOM style

from gator in the wolf thread on the last day:

"Also, I think I need to take out Jyms as I get a sneaky feeling that the below post is a trap. I will think about it a bit more and get my pick in before I head out to a concert tonight.

Originally Posted by jyms

The last few days have you guys all circling around from fed to gang. I have gator as almost 100% gang now and I am going to lose if gator is the last fed and takes out Wuf. That said, I fully expect it to be that way when I lynch keith and I'm going to get owned tomorrow. The information is all going to be gut feeling now.

Lynch Keith

Keith, do you see why your plan didn't work?

Whoever didn't go first was going to spend the next day not going peacefully regardless of role.

Originally Posted by gabe

rilla put in the work and got rewarded. let it be a lesson to those in the future: if you do everything you can to help village then people will see you as a villager! its like magic

They really never do though :P

Well played!

Rilla when you claimed me being a wolf for not having cleared you as a villager yet as we think along the same lines, that was such a soulread that I didn't think you'd be aware of. There were other posts from you, Luco and wuf that really soulread me on a deep level, which made me realize just how much me posting my thoughts completely openly and honestly for the past few games had revealed about my thinking. I kinda gave up there whereas I really shouldn't have of course. Gator and especially Aubrey showed how to keep going enthusiastically after heavy suspicion.

We lost now (imo game was slightly imba because of too many specials and thus confirmed villagers) but I want to stress how good Gator played at the end because it's gonna get lost in the village win celebration. He played really strong especially after he had thrown me under the bus.

Also wuf, the reason you weren't killed after you outed is because another normal villager would get promoted to receiver. So we had to hunt out the seer.

Congrats to the village btw. Strongest field coupled with the highest level of play so far. (we're even at the point of scaring the new players)

GG guys. Hats off to wug who ended up nailing it after being wrong over and over. I had a feeling you'd get it right when it counted most though.

Rilla, you were a fearsome villager. I'm glad you think I have a "high constitution," because I really was giving the game my all.

JV, Ong, and Gator were great to be wolves with my first time. I learned a lot, particularly from Gator once it was just us. I got to learn from the best.

I had so much fun this whole game. Being a wolf is just way too delicious. I love it.

Also, the early on imba made me that much more bloodthirsty. I'm fairly sure I can claim to have been the most optimistic about the game in the wolf thread, which may be bc of noob naïveté, but hey, I was right.

I'm stuck in traffic (not driving) so Ill post more thoughts later on.

Seriously gg wolves. Even getting as far as you did is mad props

Gator #596 in den: just did the read on Luco and am pretty solid on nomming him tonight. He is pretty damn good at putting pieces of the puzzle together.

That means a lot, thank you

everyone plays too good now. i think villagers need to stop trying to level and make personal reads. instead we should focus on picking strategies that must help the village. i dont know where to begin but damn WIFOM http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

thanks to whoever brought this up in dead thread. its something i had been thinking about but didnt know there was a werewolf specific concept related to it

Originally Posted by jackvance

We lost now (imo game was slightly imba because of too many specials and thus confirmed villagers) but I want to stress how good Gator played at the end because it's gonna get lost in the village win celebration. He played really strong especially after he had thrown me under the bus.

1) Gator's sick game isn't lost on me at all. No way you guys shoulda had a chance when by the end of Day 3, two wolves were hung and was being called an lolobviouswolf with all those confirmed villagers running around. Gator played so well that without rilla's sick soulread--which not only bagged a wolf who wasn't drawing a ton of suspicion otherwise, but also basically confirmed has as a villager which was back breaking for this team--the wolves woulda coasted to an easy win.

He picked a perfect time bus you, JV. A good wolf sells as high as they can on their teammate, and I think it was perfect to recognize that rilla had made a good case, and he was going to be able to sell the village on it some day or another and to make sure to be the first one to hop on and make it seem as though he's one of the originals dishing out the lemonade. Any later and it's just wolves giving up; any earlier and it's such lolwtfFPS that it's probably taking on too much risk to actually something someone should consider given how little heat JV had gotten in the game (see point 2). It did everything it was supposed to (keep him alive until the end), but ultimately, Occam's Razor couldn't possibly vote in his favor when it came down to him and rilla (again, see point 2), and rilla did a swell job of pointing that out.

BTW, JV, you probably would've done Gator and aubrey much more of a favor by putting up a fight. I totally understand giving up on a lost game, and this game is as much about fun as it is about strategy, but rolling over made the busing narrative much more plausible ("obviously he had given himself up anyway") and made any defense from aubrey look beyond suspicious.

2) I was actually borderline worried for the village that a wolf team that included Ong could have noticed the imba early on, and once he got seered, he could have suggested that their best chance in the mid-end game in the face of a bunch of confirmed villagers was to get one of the wolves on that list as a semi-confirmed villager by just pulling some extreme FPS form of bus throwing that this game has never seen before. rilla's outing of JV was just such a wtf soulread that it actual fit that narrative, though if the wolves were savvy enough to notice the game mechanics, adjust for it perfectly and execute it so beautifully, then you woulda just had to have rolled over for them and give them a standing ovation at the end.

3) Not to fellate too much here, but rilla really did put on a clinic as villager here. Like, I literally think I got schooled so much on how to be a villager just by lurking this game. A lot of great deductive logic applied here, Occam's Razor was applied appropriately, I've already applied the "striking off the surface" read to another game, etc. (Though I don't generally love "reads" that are in a vacuum deemed town or wolf, I think this one is good because it's so hard for a wolf to really think a game through on all the layers that solid, thinking villager would, so it's so hard to level their way out of that read applying to them).

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Keith, do you see why your plan didn't work?

Whoever didn't go first was going to spend the next day not going peacefully regardless of role.

quite the reverse..... GAtor referred to the game where it was me you and him and stacks in the endgame and he self lynched (self lynching didn't end the day then though)and you saw there was no out for him as a wolf doing that and i lost. I was trying to find out if you were willing to die. all you had to do was accept the challenge and i'd then have challenged gator the same. I thought i'd done enough pro village stuff for wuf/jyms to accept i was a villager and therefore lynching both you and gator would be a formality. Look at the wolf thread , gators plan was to try and persuade wuf on final day that i was the wolf, manna from heaven when wuf came out with his theory.

Sometimes an obvious villager is just that .

Had to laugh at JV's wolf thread comment about sympathising with you when you said about doubling your blood pressure and he had never got so emotionally involved as the time he butted heads with me. Then later on aubrey said i was annoying her ... I get under peoples skin and force wolves into mistakes.Aubrey was bang on about me not letting go when i have someone in my sights.

@Gabe: There is actually a lot of good stuff in that wiki, but most of it is just info on roles/game setups/statistics. Its been a source of inspiration for a lot of my new roles and mechanics (inspiration may be replaced with 'blatant theft' in some instances).

@Surviva: Rilla did play a strong villager game, but the wolves + wuf (sorry wuf) played a fantastic game of completely annihilating his villager cred. I remember at one point having Rilla as a villager due to ong's outting, then as a confirmed villager after he lynched JV, and then I almost shot him before I died because other ppl led me astray. It was really pretty cool, and Rilla had just enough unfortunate coincidences in the thread to make wolfrilla seem like a real possibility.

BUT, I think the village as a whole played a good game as well. Although the game was imbalanced towards the village, I really think the way people played this time around was on a higher level. From day 1 (I take credit btw lol) the village was hunting wolves and trying to get people to commit to reads and such, and I think this led to better wolf hunting. (That may seem funny considering we missed so many times, but in comparison to other games, we did play much better).

---------

One caveat, I think the more open day 1 also made it easier for the wolves to identify specials. Its something Ill have to consider in future games where there are a lot of hidden specials. It makes sense that this would be the norm too...because if we're playing in a way that helps figure out people's roles...then naturally that includes specials.

@surviva.

Yeah good points.

1. We didn't really decide beforehand to throw me under the bus, but by that point in the game so many people had been semi-cleared by having been suspicious of ong in day 1 that we agreed we had to not care about eachother and just attack eachother if the situation lent itself for it. So gator went for me when rilla built a solid case for me and he knew he'd be left out in the cold again because I might get killed. In fact we knew that one of us three would have to die with atleast one of the others on the wagon.

2. Like I said, I was just overly impressed with wuf, luco and rilla's read of me that I gave up a bit instead of think how to fight it. Which I should have done yes. My initial plan had been to mostly ignore suspicion unless it got real, but then I felt caught offguard or something. I actually thought up some strong defenses against JKDS's early allegations and such, but I ended up never posting them. My biggest mistake was definitely giving up too fast.

3. I was very much considering a rilla kill on night 2 just because I knew rilla's death would imbalance and divide the village better. But we had to hunt the seer so we went for hoopy.

We actually came really close to lynching hoopy night 1 (woulda been a completely different game), hoopy looked a super obvious special to me but I didn't press my read..


Also aubrey, at some point in the game i got a bit frustrated (in wolf chat). Sorry about that, I am just very competitive and saw you make some typical beginner mistakes that everyone was picking up on. But you adapted very quickly and played really strong afterwards with so much pressure on you, pretty much like you said you would, reason your way out of things. Very nice.

In a bit more after-analysis, I think you and me (not gator and ong died to quick to say) made the mistake of focussing too much on trying to do exactly what we would do as villager. But the thing is, as a villager you can also come off wolfy and get lynched, so even as a wolf you still have to find the balanced mix between acting like you would as a villager and being tactical to not be wolfy.

(almost all of what I said was genuine, thinking from a villager perspective.. that is too much)

@Keith: I dont see how anyone would agree to go along with your plan. The other person doesnt know you're gonna switch, and the other person cant be 100% sure you're the remaining wolf. Even so, if your plan did end up confirming you as a villager, then the other still wouldnt go along with the plan. Worse, if they accept and you then choose not to go along with it...you could do the opposite and make yourself look wolfy.

I guess I'm saying that its very hard for it to end up confirming you as a villager, and I dont see how it would help identify anyone as a wolf. Although the specific phrasing and timing of a response may actually be helpful.

wow, great game
rilla, gator - you both deserved the win
everyone else, thanks! - especially luco for giving me the chance to die twice

JV, yeah, it kinda sucks that I had to open my playbook to get you, though. In my mind, at the time, and still even now, I don't forsee myself playing too many more games. [1] It was JKDS's thread in the commune that got me into this game in the first place, I just wanted one last taste.

[1] Unless I can go figure out how to play as a wolf.

lol surviva, thx

And aubrey, don't take it too highly. I was pretty drunk at the time of that post that solidified my misread of you. If I had seen my day 1 suspicion of you again, it would have reminded me to look more closely than taking an assumption I can't know is true of you. :P

Keith, I don't remember the specific game, but I think it's likely that I was considered a villager at the time in that game.

@rilla - I really don't get how you find it so easy to be a villager yet so hard to be a wolf. It's bizarre that my education of werewolf took me in a completely different direction, which was initially nothing more than trying to stay alive, regardless of role, which in turn taught me how to not get lynched, which made me better at being a wolf.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

lol surviva, thx

And aubrey, don't take it too highly. I was pretty drunk at the time of that post that solidified my misread of you. If I had seen my day 1 suspicion of you again, it would have reminded me to look more closely than taking an assumption I can't know is true of you. :P

What does your early suspicion have to do with you noticing that I had enough of an appetite to post a lot? That observation in isolation was all I meant. Besides, there's no turning back now. My ego knows no bounds. Not after a complimentary word from the likes of you.

@rilla

Yeah I understand. You were a very easy wolf to stop tbh in your last wolf game. I think you said somewhere that you're more in it for the collegial aspect and that you feel bad about deception, which explains it. Just get over your shame for deceiving . If you read the wolf thread you can see how much fun we had a team to try to work together and trick the villager, it's really a good collegial feeling too between the wolf team if you play like that!

To post the wolf chat here too: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jeL9a7FQaNN

About me not clearing you, I had cleared wuf and luco as solid villager and they both outed as special immediately after. (seriously my special reads were pretty good this game, and i went into the game thinking and saying I sucked at it - surprised me) I wanted to clear you too, to be congruent with what I said about having a read on your wolf game, but there were too many confirmeds out there and we had to keep our options open. So many confirmeds so quickly was a bit frustrating because it limited our options so much.

Originally Posted by jackvance

@surviva.


Also aubrey, at some point in the game i got a bit frustrated (in wolf chat). Sorry about that, I am just very competitive and saw you make some typical beginner mistakes that everyone was picking up on. But you adapted very quickly and played really strong afterwards with so much pressure on you, pretty much like you said you would, reason your way out of things. Very nice.

There's no need to apologize. You weren't mean, you were just straightforward. I'm also incredibly competitive and appreciate any constructive critique. I do get defensive easily, but that's just something I'll need to work on.

Originally Posted by JKDS

@Keith: I dont see how anyone would agree to go along with your plan. The other person doesnt know you're gonna switch, and the other person cant be 100% sure you're the remaining wolf. Even so, if your plan did end up confirming you as a villager, then the other still wouldnt go along with the plan. Worse, if they accept and you then choose not to go along with it...you could do the opposite and make yourself look wolfy.

I guess I'm saying that its very hard for it to end up confirming you as a villager, and I dont see how it would help identify anyone as a wolf. Although the specific phrasing and timing of a response may actually be helpful.

when wuf came out with his theory i was the wolf , i was totally self lynching rather than staying alive if I hadn't been lynched. no way could i risk a last day of me, wuf and wolf. hence trying to find out if one of the gator and rilla was willing to die would hopefully help the survivor choose between them.

Gator, you are one hell of a nut to crack.

Rong, I said it already, but great job.

Oh and now that I'm home and can post more freely, I'd like to further show my appreciation/admiration for Gator. Gator played a sick, sick game at the end, and I'm really grateful that I got to collude with him. He helped me trust in my better intuitions and I have a much sharper sense of what a wolf should think like as a result.

Honestly, I feel like the wolves have something of a victory just in the fact that we baffled the village so much till the very end despite how downhill things went early game.

So yeah, I'm happy with this game. And incredibly impressed by Gator.

Oh, and now that I can say it openly, happy belated birthday Gator!

Oh and yeah, great job modding Rong! Thanks for an awesome game.

Originally Posted by rong

@rilla - I really don't get how you find it so easy to be a villager yet so hard to be a wolf. It's bizarre that my education of werewolf took me in a completely different direction, which was initially nothing more than trying to stay alive, regardless of role, which in turn taught me how to not get lynched, which made me better at being a wolf.

Maybe that's why it seems good villagers don't make good wolves and vice-the-versa. The early tips and tricks that reward us grow overtime while the ones we missed out on don't.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

JV, yeah, it kinda sucks that I had to open my playbook to get you, though. In my mind, at the time, and still even now, I don't forsee myself playing too many more games. [1] It was JKDS's thread in the commune that got me into this game in the first place, I just wanted one last taste.

[1] Unless I can go figure out how to play as a wolf.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Gator, you are one hell of a nut to crack.

And seriously, I worry you might be a sociopath. Yours is a black heart, pumping nothing but ice water, not even Hannibal Lecture could stomach. I fear for those closest to you who might actually believe themselves to be your "loved ones." [1]

[1][Facetious!]

Originally Posted by daven

wow, great game
rilla, gator - you both deserved the win
everyone else, thanks! - especially luco for giving me the chance to die twice

Ha ha no problem man

eug, gl with the wedding!

Originally Posted by gabe

everyone plays too good now. i think villagers need to stop trying to level and make personal reads. instead we should focus on picking strategies that must help the village. i dont know where to begin but damn WIFOM http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

thanks to whoever brought this up in dead thread. its something i had been thinking about but didnt know there was a werewolf specific concept related to it

Yeah I'm playing my first game on mafiaScum atm and everyone plays so different from how we play now. Pretty much WIFOM. I'm still trying to go on reads alone though and see how I fare.

If you play with randoms it might be a good approach, trying to read people comes in play more if you know the people.

JV, that's what makes our games fun, the fact that we know each other (in a werewolf sense). I'd have no desire to play this game with randoms whatsoever.

@Ong: Damn you! My posts came across as cautious? Fuck me. I knew this wasnt my standard villager game, but I was hoping that by just being super aggressive regarding game theory and reads and such that I could play it off. Grrrrrrr

@RONG: Game was a bit imba, and you made a mistake or two, but I thought you did a good job. You had to deal with everything you could possibly deal with this game (modkill, wrong pm, imba setup), so you just gained a huge amount of exp lol. You're future games will be great

Thanks to all (esp Rong) for the nice game, even though I was a spectator for all but day 1. It's my first time being lynched which shows my inexperience! lol. following both the game and dead threads was a pretty important learning experience and I must admit I was in way over my head with such a tough field.

Originally Posted by Luco

Ha ha no problem man

eug, gl with the wedding!

Thanks! And no worries about choosing Daven over me. I would have done the same, wedding or no wedding.

Originally Posted by Gator from Wolf thread

win or lose these two quotes make this entire game worthwhile

Gator is one hell of a nut to crack. Everything he does in this game has two readings, and I want to believe that half of them are built around a gut-suspicion because it's Gator alone.

P.S. Consolidating my thoughts on Gator is fucking hard.

To be fair, I was doing my very best to embrace JKDS's read on you in light of his past showings with Jyms and Aubrey. I still felt very conflicted about reading you a villager :P

Laying off of you when wuf put up Keith was probably best anyway. Keith had some wolf equity and I thought it was most important that I not die.

i also will add that i don't know if i will ever be good at this game! currently doubting it highly.

|So what's peoples thoughts on the splitting up of both the vig and the seer roles?

Oh yeah, I suggested in the thread because I didn't want to forget it, wolves should get a prelim day to get together and hatch a scheme, imo.

Also thought on the wolves interceptor power, I think that was my favourite addition to the game. I'm not sure if that should be one shot power or a multi use power or what, but I definitely like it.

Originally Posted by rong

|So what's peoples thoughts on the splitting up of both the vig and the seer roles?

Wrinkles are always nice.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Oh yeah, I suggested in the thread because I didn't want to forget it, wolves should get a prelim day to get together and hatch a scheme, imo.

I really don't think they need it. Unless you plan to make it that the wolf chat thread is only open at night, in which case it would have value.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Wrinkles are always nice.

I like how over the passed couple of years you've been gradually phasing out English and replacing it with confuse.

Thanks for modding rong!

So, who had the best death scene?

Originally Posted by rong

I like how over the passed couple of years you've been gradually phasing out English and replacing it with confuse.

The internet is a bewildering place.

Adding new twists on old features always makes the game fresh as it allows for discussions on the new mechanics.

Originally Posted by gabe

from gator in the wolf thread on the last day:
"Also, I think I need to take out Jyms as I get a sneaky feeling that the below post is a trap. I will think about it a bit more and get my pick in before I head out to a concert tonight.

I was thinking that wuf was thinking the other way around. It turns out we both had the same thought so I'm sure gator had no play as it was. I may have wavered and leveled myself though

Originally Posted by eugmac

i also will add that i don't know if i will ever be good at this game! currently doubting it highly.

You're already good. But having a wolf game helped me a lot

Originally Posted by jackvance

To post the wolf chat here too: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jeL9a7FQaNN

Once again, aubrey and Gator, you guys played great. It's kinda funny how little I appreciate is going on behind the scenes in the wolf den.

If both jyms and wuf were stating theyd kill rilla...then how does killing either show gator is a wolf? o.o

We just luckboxed this lol

Originally Posted by JKDS

If both jyms and wuf were stating theyd kill rilla...then how does killing either show gator is a wolf? o.o

We just luckboxed this lol

A lot of lucky stuff happened for us this game, if you think about it. Even you dying when you did probably helped us. If they take out wuf, I might die with the final day being: Jyms, Gator, Keith.

Originally Posted by JKDS

@Ong: Damn you! My posts came across as cautious? Fuck me. I knew this wasnt my standard villager game, but I was hoping that by just being super aggressive regarding game theory and reads and such that I could play it off. Grrrrrrr

You should be pleased with yourself. If you're angel and intend to protect yourself on n1, then you want the wolves sniffing you out. I feel like we soulread each other pretty well this game, but you came out on top once again, because me soulreading you allowed the seer to live another day.

Huge credit to all my wolf buddies, jack's special hunting was expert, gator was obviously incredible, and aubrey played a fantastic first wolf game under a lot of pressure.

Muchos kudos to hoopy for his n1 look up, that was pretty damn expert too.

Rilla, please play every now and then. You are a formiddable foe, but one I get a huge amount of enjoyment playing against. Or with. I get this game can be time consuming and even emotionally draining, but I hope you don't retire outright. Maybe one game every six months, just to keep the rest of us happy.

Well played to pretty much everyone, this was a strong field with a high standard of play.

And to the noobs... don't let this game scare you off!

Thanks dan for modding, it worked out great in the end. Imba + mod error does not need to ruin the fun, and it didn't. We got a solid game out of it thanks to the high level of people like gator and rilla.

gg village.

Also, I'll be sitting the next one out if it's starting in the next week or three, I have two holidays planned for the next month. So if you want a game with no onging, then get one started soon!

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Keith, I don't remember the specific game, but I think it's likely that I was considered a villager at the time in that game.

You weren't a lock villager that game because I distinctly remember telling you that if you were a wolf I would lynch you day one form then on.

You played an excellent game Rilla and caused me so much brain hurt that it isn't funny. I still think I win though if you get lynched instead of Keith.

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And seriously, I worry you might be a sociopath. Yours is a black heart, pumping nothing but ice water, not even Hannibal Lecture could stomach. I fear for those closest to you who might actually believe themselves to be your "loved ones." [1]

[1][Facetious!]

I laughed so hard at this. This game was so much fun that my wife was even asking for updates.

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Oh and now that I'm home and can post more freely, I'd like to further show my appreciation/admiration for Gator. Gator played a sick, sick game at the end, and I'm really grateful that I got to collude with him. He helped me trust in my better intuitions and I have a much sharper sense of what a wolf should think like as a result.

Honestly, I feel like the wolves have something of a victory just in the fact that we baffled the village so much till the very end despite how downhill things went early game.

So yeah, I'm happy with this game. And incredibly impressed by Gator.

Oh, and now that I can say it openly, happy belated birthday Gator!

Thanks. It is quite impressive how different your wolf game was between the beginning and end.

aubrey

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Also, I'll be sitting the next one out if it's starting in the next week or three, I have two holidays planned for the next month. So if you want a game with no onging, then get one started soon!

I too am going to be sitting out for a bit. Fantasy football takes up a bit of my time (5 leagues will do that to ya) and I have to admit that this game is majorly mentally draining for me.

Originally Posted by Keith

quite the reverse..... GAtor referred to the game where it was me you and him and stacks in the endgame and he self lynched (self lynching didn't end the day then though)and you saw there was no out for him as a wolf doing that and i lost. I was trying to find out if you were willing to die. all you had to do was accept the challenge and i'd then have challenged gator the same.

The problem with all of this is that having everyone but you get lynched guarantees a win regardless of role, so the gentleman's agreement is simply not gonna be taken at face value because everyone is smart enough to recognize that it's not advantageous, so it's at least Level 2 something or other.

So basically, it looks like a ploy. Given that rilla was hated by jyms and wuf was at least pretending to have no intention to have rilla outlive everyone, as a villager you have no motivation to sell the farm on a ploy to ensure that rilla gets lynched, so all it looks like is a ploy to confirm yourself as a villager. The fact that you were so insistent, over and over again being like, "It would have confirmed you as a villager if you accepted [ahem, ie, I'm a confirmed villager for proposing it, hey everyone look at me, surely you can connect the dots here right]" all the more supported the possibility that you were just doing it as a ploy to confirm yourself as a villager (and since you pointed out in this thread that you were in fact at least partially motivated by that, that read isn't off).

So, as a villager you had two paths to victory:

1) Be right on your wolf read on rilla and get the village to lynch him, and

2) Be the last person that anyone would suspect as wolf.

As a wolf, #2 (confirming yourself as a villager as much as possible) is your only path to victory. So basically, in both cases, you're trying to confirm yourself as a villager, but in the case that you're a villager, it's only one of your two motivations. As a villager, you can just pile on the case that rilla was a wolf and ride jyms OMGUSing and wuf's gator=villager read to victory; no desperate, risky ploy necessary.

Anyway, not everyone's gonna read it the same exact way I did, but the fact that you said that you were doing it because you thought it would confirm you as a villager points to the flaw to the whole thing. It's something someone might do as an attempt to clear themselves as a villager, which both roles would be motivated to do, and a wolf who's facing a tough path to victory would be all the more likely to do.

To be totally honest, I was surprised the game didn't end the second you were lynched, and obviously it didn't win over the in-game villagers either.

I think this will be the last game I play. I can't get through the dead thread. All the vitriol, comments about being a godsend to the wolves just breaks my heart.

It's easy to overestimate how good of reads villagers can have in the early game. Each new game day increases the difficulty for wolves and decreases the difficulty for the villagers at an exponential rate. It's such a dramatic change that the only days that the village can be expected to reliably find wolves is within one or two days of a wolf win.

I hit everybody who needs hitting. I hit them hard so as to dig out their role best as possible. No matter how hard anybody tries, most lynches are not of wolves. It breaks my heart that I do what it takes to stay alive and win, yet I'm the bad guy. This keeps happening in every game, I don't know how to fix it, but I can't take it any more


@Ong, you're too hard on yourself. You played a fantastic wolf game, the mere threat of you being a wolf is why I pointed out I didn't want you plopping around wagons. Nothing you did doomed your team

@Aubrey, with some more practice, you'll be one of the best wolves on the forum, and it's not close

@JV, I meant it as a compliment that I think you're not a good liar

@Gator, you played the best wolf game I've seen. People wanna take that away from you by acting like it was obvious Rilla was a villager and you a wolf, but that isn't accurate. I said "final form gator" several times because I spent much of the game examining your posts and thinking "goddamn that's such a brilliant thing that Gatorwolf would do, but it can't be used against him." Virtually nothing you did could be reliably used against you



I'd like to add that the way I play can't both be confirmation bias and all over the place. Those two are mutually exclusive. If it was confirmation bias I would never change my position based on new information and instead I would stick to the same path regardless. When players can't defend themselves against my arguments, they need to stop blaming me for coming on strong and instead pick my claims apart.

Some can be considered spew (like when I tried to tie Aubrey in with other players instead of just focusing on her wolfiness exclusively), but it's ironic that every accusation of "spew" I get isn't accompanied by an argument that counters my claims.

The game isn't puppy dogs and ice cream. It gets messy out there. The wolves aren't willing to give you their role, you have to kick them over the head and take it. But when you do that, a whole lot of villagers get kicked too. It's easy to call somebody an honorary wolf when you're not doing the legwork, you have special information and are watching from the sidelines, and its not your ass on the line and you weren't the one to get the job done

I don't mean to be a prick about it, but I'm upset because in every game I feel like people expect me to have a magic 8-ball. The village that doesn't get dirty doesn't win. At least now I can retire with the knowledge that I won every single endgame I've been in regardless of how much people think I'm helping the wolves. Maybe that means I'm actually not helping the wolves, but instead getting to the bottom of things. Every game goes down to the wire, except for ones the village wins due to imba (outed seer + hidden angel combo sorta thing). That means that if a majority of villagers doesn't know every single player's role with high enough confidence, they lose


BTW Rilla I almost had a heart attack when you posted those gifs. When you're me, and you get accused of sucking no matter what, you can't ever lose a game because if you do, it's the only thing anybody will remember

wuf, just a little bit of semi-irl advice from some young, not-at-all-sage person:

We're not too different, you and I. I get "tl;dr"ed for like every other post I write; I'm interested in a really wide range of topics and am not afraid to get in vicious internet arguments on a lot of them; I think I'm smart and I use a lot of big words and facts I read in the New Yorker, etc, yet I'm not much more than a wannabe writer who moved out of my parents basement like 4 months ago; etc.

My advice would be to not take things/yourself so seriously. When you try to set yourself up as a grandmaster mage of werewolf/poker/politics/art, then people are naturally gonna see how you fall short of being the greatest thing in that genre ever, or worse yet, cheer against you being right and use all sorts of confirmation bias to show how you're nothing but a retarded, low-life blowhard (not like anyone thinks that of you; I'm just exaggerating how harsh haters can be). Otherwise, if you don't spend so much time trying to setup a very srs bsns platform, what do you think people will take away from your posts? Really, just think about it........

If you want my personal opinion (without getting all gushy and such here) I think it would be pretty obvious that you're a smart guy with a lot of interests who can add interesting facts to a conversation even if--worst case scenario!--they are misapplied or the source is specious or any number of things. At the very very very least you're pushing conversations forward, and people pretty much appreciate that so long as the tl;dr intellectualista wannabe can have a bit of a sense-of-humor about their admitted flaws. Unless you don't have any admitted flaws, in which case, I know what the problem is...

Just a little self-deprecation here and there could go a loooooooong way. Even if you're sweating bullets waiting at the computer hoping that your opponent's only rebuttal will be, "You're right; you're argument is airtight; you're awesome; fuck all the haters, you are a fine and intelligent person who should have is own YouTube channel," then your next post should do what it can to not reflect this at all...or better yet, your next post could be admitting that that's what you were doing and laugh at yourself for being so image-conscious in an internet argument.

Some examples: -Instead of opening a post by saying, "Here's the werewolf reads post to end all werewolf reads posts," open it by being like, "lol, it's Day 1, and I will be the first person laughing at me when all of this ends up being wrong, but I have some reads that I feel surprisingly good about."

-Instead of saying, "No, you can't be getting your facts from anywhere but conservative think-tank liars because everyone who knows anything holds the beliefs I do, but I don't even have time to get into all the explanations behind that's most definitely, certainly true right now, so you're just gonna have to educate yourself before you're even worthy of being talked to," you could say....well pretty much anything would be an improvement on that.

- Why get in a tizzy when people say "Hi, I'm wufwugy"? Well, okay, nevermind I feel ya there. It sucks to have a long, thought-out post be torn down by 3 smartass words that everyone for some reason agrees somes you up as a person. BUT you could maybe take a deep breath and be like, "Haha, okay yeah, that one got away from me a bit there, and admittedly {qualifier 1} and {qualifier 2}, but in my defense, this is a topic that's too complicated to be addressed in 160 characters, so maybe you could have a bit of patience with it and not right it all off just because it's long and a little too self-certain because, in the end, word count and tone actually proves abso-fucking-lutely nothing either way."

Hell, you could even open a post by being like, "here's a little bit of semi-irl advice from some young, not-at-all-sage person . . . " and even if it's obviously just a thinly-veiled way to come off as not taking yourself too seriously; hell, even if you specifically say later in THAT VERY SAME POST that you're just using that as a thinly-veiled way to come off as though you're not taking yourself too seriously and use it as a way to prove how great you are at doing the very thing you're trying to prove with your post (omg it works on so many levels! I'm the cleverest person on all of FTR, eat a dick BennyLaRue! Oh wait, but now I'm proving myself wrong...you're actually....kinda cool and.....better than me BennyLaRue. Okay, yeah, I think my readers fell for that), then people still can't help but appreciate the fact that you're knocking yourself down a notch, unless they're just silly guses who are looking for ways to hate you.

All that said, after seeing that all of this "breaks your heart," I feel bad about my comments in regard to you in the game thread. If you look at it, though, it has noooothing to do with how good/bad of a werewolf player you are (I, at best, skimmed the longer posts because I was just lurking, so I wouldn't know what I was talking about anyway). It really just speaks to this very point I'm making.

And now I'll take my pants off and frenetically press F5, anxiously awaiting someone to be like, "OMG, surviva's advice was so perfect, and he even included some humor in it, and yeah, I never really noticed, but yeah now that I think about it, he is cooler and does have a bushier mustache than BennyLaRue," so that I can make sweet sweet hand love to my penis while reading that post.

tl;dr: I could be wrong [note: I'm never wrong], but I think that your content is totally fine and would catch you no more heat than mine catch me (which is still a decent amount). I think it's like 90% a problem of tone. Okay, and reputation's probably a bit of the problem too, at this point, and that might be harder to buck :/

Thanks

Originally Posted by surviva316

Some examples: -Instead of opening a post by saying, "Here's the werewolf reads post to end all werewolf reads posts," open it by being like, "lol, it's Day 1, and I will be the first person laughing at me when all of this ends up being wrong, but I have some reads that I feel surprisingly good about."

You're right that this is it. The disconnect is that whenever I make those posts, I'm partly joking. This is like WWE to me, I wanna make it big and bursting and a little bit silly. Hyperbole and caricature is fun, but it's hard to get across online

Also, if you don't believe in yourself then who DO you believe in? Put those two things together and you have how I play WW

wuf, seriously, any one of us is capable of playing badly enough to be considered a godsend to the wolves. It's inevitable that I'll have a stinker like that one day. Don't take stuff to heart, it's the internet and people type what they think is funny, and often it comes across as harsh. The way you play this game is similar to my early game... it's all about trying to soulread the fuck out of the wolves. That's fine, and when it works, you look awesome, your ego gets a boost, and you get a lot of praise. But if you want the praise when you play well, you gotta take the critisism when you play bad. And despite what everyone was saying in the dead thread, and indeed the wolf den to a lesser degree, most people recognised that you are good enough to see things correctly when it mattered most. I mean for fuck's sake you soulread gator on final day. Not many people do that. You should be pleased with yourself, not heartbroken. It's ok to play badly wuf. You played badly for most of the game, but not when it mattered most. So kudos to you for getting it right in the end.

Seriously, please don't stop playing, you're entertaining as hell.

werewolf is so fun. i could never quit. i cant wait until next game.



now i want to host a game just so i could allow editing and show you guys that nothing bad will happen

Originally Posted by wufwugy

This is like WWE

thats a pretty fair description. cant have WWE without any bad guys

even when i think wuf and ongbonga post tons of crazy not useful posts, it wouldnt really be the same without them.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

You're right that this is it. The disconnect is that whenever I make those posts, I'm partly joking. This is like WWE to me, I wanna make it big and bursting and a little bit silly. Hyperbole and caricature is fun, but it's hard to get across online

I know you were purposefully going over the top with that post by saying that, but let's put it this way: when I used to watch the WWE, I never was like, "The Rock is so clearly being hyperbolic about how awesome he thinks he is that this is clearly self-caricature, and he's probably a cool, down-to-earth guy to hang out with." He mostly came off as someone who thought he was so cool that he could even crank up the bravado to exaggerated extremes and still get away with it.

Okay, so obviously the show is more transparent when the guy's motivation is money and sticking to a script and all that stuff, so not a perfect comparison, but yeah I think that knocking yourself down a notch is a million times better than exaggerating your flaws. It's the pathos of the reader you're trying to disarm, so things are naturally gonna be taken at face value. To this effect, even insincere self-deprecation is gonna come off better than insincere serious businessousness, even though the reasoned faculties should recognize that the double negative in insincere serious businessousness is actually technically a more pure form of mocking yourself than the insincere self-deprecation is.

I don't know, now I'm even frustrating myself, but yeah whatever and stuff.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

wuf, seriously, any one of us is capable of playing badly enough to be considered a godsend to the wolves. It's inevitable that I'll have a stinker like that one day. Don't take stuff to heart, it's the internet and people type what they think is funny, and often it comes across as harsh. The way you play this game is similar to my early game... it's all about trying to soulread the fuck out of the wolves. That's fine, and when it works, you look awesome, your ego gets a boost, and you get a lot of praise. But if you want the praise when you play well, you gotta take the critisism when you play bad. And despite what everyone was saying in the dead thread, and indeed the wolf den to a lesser degree, most people recognised that you are good enough to see things correctly when it mattered most. I mean for fuck's sake you soulread gator on final day. Not many people do that. You should be pleased with yourself, not heartbroken. It's ok to play badly wuf. You played badly for most of the game, but not when it mattered most. So kudos to you for getting it right in the end.

Seriously, please don't stop playing, you're entertaining as hell.

This is one thing that gets at me: did I really play badly? Really? By the midgame I had put Bikes Savy and Gizmo as my most likely villagers, yet they were all killed in ways that I had no control and we were left with the harder to read players. The only successful wagons of villagers I was on were Daven and Keith, and I tried to make my rationale for them as good as possible. I was one of the main people putting JV down and I tried super hard to kill Aubrey. That "spew" onto Rilla was because I had this nagging feeling that the wolves were playing tricky in ways that I've never seen before. And here's the kicker: they were! In 3 years of FTR WW, we've never had a wolf team play this tricky. And you can't undermine how incredibly Gator played. To top off how crazy good he was, he got 5 fast bolds in just one page, and the third (or fourth) was the other wolf!

I got this "played badly" thing in the last game, and the game before that. I get it every game no matter what. If it was so true, then how in the world have I been able to be one of the key villagers in winning in these games? If what I did this game really was "bad play", wouldn't the village have been steamrolled since I was such a large part of it?

WW has an incredible tumultuous nature all by itself. Whenever a wolf is under pressure and a villager changes the wagon, it's not because that villager is playing badly, it's because that's the structure of the game itself.

In my mods, the most damaging aspect of village play I noticed was having no village leader, no cohesion on wagons, and no direction. When I play I try to step up and take on that role. Because of the turbulent nature of the game, it often looks like whoever is in a leadership role is playing badly. But it isn't true. Bad play isn't being wrong, it's using bad reasons for your decisions

And I think that's what this all boils down to, why it upsets me so much to see people say I play bad. My arguments are not bad, and if they are, it should be easy enough to point out why. I get the "bad play" accusations because I'm often seen in a leadership role where my arguments are inadvertently against villagers instead of wolves


Maybe I'm making too much out of this, but I'm sensitive to it since it's happened numerous times and it makes me hate playing. Bad play is not: attacking villagers. Bad play is: attacking anybody for irrational and unsound reasons. I do the former and I do my damnedest to not do the latter

From the wolf perspective, and from the pov of everyone in the dead thread who knew who the wolves were, of course it appears you were playing badly, at least when you were shouting that's it's always keith, jyms, rilla and whoever else you thought it was. Would I think you were playing badly if I didn't know who the wolves were? Probably not. You have to remember wuf that the wolves were spoiled in the dead thread, so dead villagers are all "noooooo wuf you're wrong", while the wolves are all "yeeeeesh wuf lead the village to doom"... it's just banter more than anything.

Well it's banter from my pov... I can't speak for others... please don't take anything I say personally.

Also, don't forget how ordinary me, boog, jack and galap made rilla look when we steamrollered the village. Only JKDS emerged from that game on the village side with any credit. If the wolves play well, then the villagers are playing badly by no fault of their own. I guess that's a critical point... you played "badly" because aubrey and gator were playing superbly at that time. That was at your expense.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

From the wolf perspective, and from the pov of everyone in the dead thread who knew who the wolves were, of course it appears you were playing badly, at least when you were shouting that's it's always keith, jyms, rilla and whoever else you thought it was. Would I think you were playing badly if I didn't know who the wolves were? Probably not. You have to remember wuf that the wolves were spoiled in the dead thread, so dead villagers are all "noooooo wuf you're wrong", while the wolves are all "yeeeeesh wuf lead the village to doom"... it's just banter more than anything.

The wolfchat wasn't so bad, they're allowed to feel like villagers get things wrong and help them out

But it's different with the dead players. It feels like they're sitting on the top balcony, bespectacled, assuming they would do better if only they were on stage. I didn't notice it in the first several dead threads, but I think it's a problem to allow spoilers in them. It's easy to think you're Sherlock and that the remaining players are knuckle draggers when you already know the roles

In the game where the final day was Rong Jyms Luco, I recall no players getting a bad rap because there were no spoilers in the dead thread. In fact, the entire dead thread itself got the final wolf wrong! Imagine how the villagers who lost that game would feel if the dead thread knew who the wolf was and the thread was filled with "oh how could he miss that, it's so obvious!!" and "omg he keeps doing that over and over and he's screwing everything up!!"