Congrats to the drug smuggling village

Anyway, I want you to know that if anything I've said actually hurt your feelings, then I'm sorry. It's certainly not my intention to make people feel bad about themselves, like I said it's banter.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Also, don't forget how ordinary me, boog, jack and galap made rilla look when we steamrollered the village. Only JKDS emerged from that game on the village side with any credit. If the wolves play well, then the villagers are playing badly by no fault of their own. I guess that's a critical point... you played "badly" because aubrey and gator were playing superbly at that time. That was at your expense.

The difference is that Rilla didn't get blamed

I don't even know how bad this dead thread got because I can't read it. People saying I'm an honorary wolf because my confirmation bias is stopping the village from getting it right is just bullshit

I think you're right about spoilers, I prefer it when people are still trying to figure it out.

I tell you what wuf, go back and have a look at the bit where JKDS was tearing my posts to shreds after you confimed me as wolf. That was fucking depressing for me to watch, I thought one day of onging was enough to fuck my team. Had the village followed JKDS' strategy there, it's a lock win. You say I played a fantastic wolf game, but that's simply not true. I played pretty fucking badly myself here, at least in the thread. I got seer'd on n1 and left a stinking big trail. We got lucky in that no-one else is really on JKDS' level, I actually think he's a better villager than rilla.

I thought that after the game, I was going to be seriously mocked. I was metally preparing myself for it. I think I refer to it in the den as the "let's all laugh at ong party". I think it's the price we have to pay wuf for our style. We want the glory when we own shit, so we have to take the crap when we fail. As it happens, you didn't fail here. So all these comments about you being an honourary wolf, it's bollocks. You won it for village. All these comments are moot.

I think you're overestimating the power of JKDS' argument against you. If it was true that villagers can be confirmed because you don't bold them Day 1, then you can super easily change that and trick everybody. It's with things like Bikes getting up to 8 votes or whatever crazy number that he did two days in a row that you can start reasonably saying "lock villager" because those are things that wolves almost never are able to fake.

It's funny, as I was reading some of the concerns the wolves had in chat, I thought "wow I don't recall them needing to be afraid of that"

Also my theory is that finding wolves early doesn't really matter. That's because all have to die for the village to win. There has to be a balance between the wolves entrenching their patterns and keeping them from having too much say in what the village does each day. I wouldn't be surprised if, in a computer model that runs a 9 Day game a thousand times, the highest win percentage for the village came about when the four wolves were lynched on Day 3, Day 5, Day 7, and Day 8. When you think about it, a wolf who only had Day 1 to play didn't give much away. Even if he did and he knows it, the village can almost never be sure enough to depend on it

No I think you played a whole lot better than you think. I mean dude you got me to think Daven and Gabe were wolves. Granted in my Daven research I simply missed one nuance that destroyed my case and the Gabe one was a little deductive because I didn't like the Eug thing and I thought you were trying to trick the receiver

^^Ong was totally an honorary villager from the village's perspective. (minus special hunting, asshole!)

But seriously, the only reason you get signaled out is because people like me dont understand youre being hyperbolic. I seriously never understood that, and have taken every single one of your posts at 100% face value.

And when someone posts like that...it draws attn to them. It really is that simple.

Ong was an honory villager. WTF was bikes this game? Did keith do anything? JV died day3 without a seer, honorary villager! JKDS solved the game day2 but sucks so bad that he kept killing his own reads, lul!

To be quite honest, the only player that I think didnt really make any mistakes this game was Gator.

---

I do put some of the blame on you for pushing me off my own reads this game. But obviously most of the blame lies with myself. Further, if my reads were so good...why was I pushed off at all? Hindsight is 20-20 and whatnot. Also, there were many who, like me, thought for sure that you'd pull off the win this game IN SPITE of the bad comments.

---

Are you bad for the village? NO. Players like you, keith, and ong who post shittons and get on people's bad side create arguments that will later get dissected and prove people's roles.

You make good ploys as well. This marks the second time I can remember where you've threatened to shoot (who i thought) was a -EV target...when you're really just doing a reaction test. But idk its a reaction test, and you cant tell anyone, so my only response is "no, hes gonna wuf with it!". Its a good test, and provides great information, its just the downside is you come off as crazy.

I was pleased that my gabe vote got the reaction I wanted, I must admit that. I nearly voted for aubrey there, but felt it's better to accidentally clear a villager than nail a wolf.

And you're right. I could see that JKDS was leading the village in the right direction with his anlaysis, but even he couldn't be sure it was correct. There's always doubt.

But yeah I was worried. I was pretty stoked when I saw who my team was, obviously. To screw that team over would be quite a fuck up.

Hehe, i just read the wolf thread part where ong says my entire reads list was based on a false premise. I can have bad logic too

But seriously, if I said anything that hurt your feelings then Im sorry. Ive been very desensitized since joining ftr, and its made me be much less careful about how I talk to or about people as well.

How can i ever fake claim wuffinator if you're not involved??? I NEED YOU WUFFY

Originally Posted by rong

JV, that's what makes our games fun, the fact that we know each other (in a werewolf sense). I'd have no desire to play this game with randoms whatsoever.

I held that opinion too for the longest time, but now I am seeing the value in playing a little bit on mafiascum too. I'm not gonna be playing there too often, it's too detached how they play there, but it's going to be nice for me to see to what degree my reads are based on intuitive things that apply generally, and to what degree it's based on getting to know people better. If I get a sense of where I stand on that front I'll stop playing there.

Originally Posted by surviva316

And now I'll take my pants off and frenetically press F5, anxiously awaiting someone to be like, "OMG, surviva's advice was so perfect, and he even included some humor in it, and yeah, I never really noticed, but yeah now that I think about it, he is cooler and does have a bushier mustache than BennyLaRue," so that I can make sweet sweet hand love to my penis while reading that post.

I didn't read all of it, but if you want an honest answer, from my perspective everything you said is all very standard, even self-help book and TV series realization at the end of the episode kind of thing. I liked your strategy analysis post in this thread better.

(disclaimer: i don't say this to discredit you btw, just thought I'd post my impression for no particular reason)

Wuf, a few things.

Firsty, you seem to think that when you say "this is gonna be the greatest read in werewolf history, watch me become goat villager in front of your very eyes" or w/e, that it should be viewed as nothing more than you having a bit of fun and not taken seriously or at face value, yet when we take the piss out of you and call you an honorary wolf/village liability etc that this should be taken seriously and literally.

This is very much a wufwugy trait, you put you at the centre of everything. I guess most people do that, but as you're so out there with your thoughts and feelings it becomes obvious.

So we have a person who makes very bold statements with extreme confidence to the point where arrogance was a long and distant landmark that can no longer be seen in the rear view mirror, who doesn't like it when people make negative statements about him. Well that just won't do.

It would be harsh if the likes of Supa or Hoopy, who are far less confident and brash in the game, were slated like you have been but if you put yourself out there like you do then you have to be able to take the rough with the smooth.

As for the criticisms of your play this particular game, it was because viewing the game from a point of complete information, the wolves were completely destroyed incredibly quickly to the point where I thought they may as well just aroo and let's start another game. JKDS completely owned the whole game with his day 2 read and, as Ong said, had the village followed his lead the game was practically solved. The difference between JKDS's read and your read was that his would have led to certain victory in double quick time and yours had a tendency to lynch lots of villagers.

SO the village went from looking like dead certs at one point to then following your lead and looking like they may actually lose. This is why people were calling you an honorary wolf. However when it really mattered you made the right call and won the game so I don't see what the problem is, if anything I'm delighted at your performance as it was looking like my game was going to be completely shit and over in a matter of days at one point, but instead it turned into a really close game which was entertaining throughout, which the dead thread is a testament to.

Now just as an attempt to make you feel better, I can relate to how you felt when reading the dead thread. But I guarantee you I have felt worse throughout this game.

I created a game, kinda implied (blatantly stated?) it would be vanilla, invited lots of people to create an awesome game, then changed my mind about the rules and roles so it wasn't vanilla, which people immediately commented on. It then turned out that the game which I had put so much effort into was really imbalanced and people were actually pointing this out. Then, the team that were at a huge disadvantage due to my set up, totally fucked up to the point where one of the villagers pretty much read the whole village and the game I had set up was completely ruined. The mood in the wolf thread was depressed to the point where I thought they might actually give up and there was winging about the game set up in there. So I was feeling like quite a dick and rather embarrassed.

We some how get past this with the game still in tact and then I accidentally PM someone's role to someone who shouldn't have it. At this point I just wanted to die. I then had a few kinda rule breaky type things to deal with, the wolves getting pissed off at my role pm fuck up and demanding action and getting pissed about the rule breaky kinda sorta thing. At this point I just wanted the game to be over.

SO anyway, I get through this as well, feeling quite depressed at this point, and then proceed to actually give away some roles in the narrative. Even on the final fucking day!!!! And rest assured, someone in the dead thread saw this and pointed it out publicly for everyone to see.

Now I could have got a lot more stick for this than I have, and I'd be prepared to get it and deservedly so, but that's because I wanted to mod a game, I put myself out there and if my game was amazing I'd want the accolades so when I fuck it up I except the consequences of public humiliation.

I've lost track of exactly what my point is here, but hopefully it will be clear by the time you reach here because I can't be bothered to read it all to find out.

Rong, when you puff yourself up as god's greatest werewolf mod (however seriously), it's going to draw attention to you. when you subsequently fail to hit the (frankly unattainable) standards that you yourself have laid out there, people will comment. Deal wid it.

lynch rong, got one.

Not gods greatest werewolf mod. God himself motherfucker!

Originally Posted by wufwugy

I think this will be the last game I play. I can't get through the dead thread. All the vitriol, comments about being a godsend to the wolves just breaks my heart.

Come on wuf. I understand that you are disappointed because from your point view you did better than you were perceived by others to be but unless I'm wrong about you, you are someone who is fully capable of dealing with constructive feedback and learn from it to come back stronger. And also, I really like the parts of your reasoning that are correct. They show you are very much capable of thinking on a high level.

Also you have to realize that the observation that your ideas are all over the place is not reflective on your character, from my pov it's just a game theory-like description of our attempts to predict your line of thinking, which we need to strategize about to be able to plan our next move. It's very hard with you compared to most other people. You can be wrong, you can be right, you can be anything but you'll always appear to be super convinced of your ideas even if they change all the time.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

But it's different with the dead players. It feels like they're sitting on the top balcony, bespectacled, assuming they would do better if only they were on stage.

The observations made by myself, Gator and basically everyone in the dead thread are in part just joking about a common thing most people will agree with. Like how one friend of you makes an observation, someone else nods and the third guy makes a joke about it.

Also it's hard with you to make the link between what you're really thinking and what you're saying. Even if we take everything you say as sincere, it's still hard to predict what your thought process is going to be next.

Originally Posted by wufwugy

But it's different with the dead players. It feels like they're sitting on the top balcony, bespectacled, assuming they would do better if only they were on stage.

This is textbook confirmation bias. It's basically the definition of the concept. I know you'll be thinking "there is that stupid buzzword again" but hear me out. When we are presented with information that we are told is true or that we find true based on our own thinking, our mind will assume this is true to the point of being obvious. And we'll actively look for confirmation and disregard counter-evidence.

Examples: wolves in the dead thread reveal who the remaining wolves are. So all the dead villagers become naturally confirmation biased. Rong posts results - makes everyone go all confirmation bias on these results, which is actually a good thing. With regards to trusting in our own thinking, confirmation bias is about going too strong in the conviction that our reads are correct by weighing evidence unfairly and mostly just noticing whatever confirms our theory.

So people aren't being high and mighty on purpose, they genuinely feel everything is so obvious that it takes actual work to attempt to be unbiased. And even worse, it takes a lot of work for someone to not see only the things that confirm their theory and discard everything else.


(you might ask why we are so "stupid" with our biases - simple, it is the best thinking strategy in a gametheory sense for figuring out what is happening in your life in a world full of incomplete information. The majority of the time our quick confirmation bias makes us correctly understand stuff faster than we would with a scientific method that tries to be complete in the mathematical sense)

Originally Posted by rong

Not gods greatest werewolf mod. God himself motherfucker!

I hope you don't actually see yourself affirmed in making imbalanced games!

Hey, it went to the wire and people watched to the end and were highly entertained. Clearly, in spite of some teething problems, I owned that shit, making me greater than god, therefore, I am him! (add sound of thunder about now)

Just promise me you'll continue to take your pills three times a day.

Wuf, I was the first person to use the words 'confirmation bias' (both in game and in the dead thread) so I feel I need to say something here.

First and foremost, I feel bad now. Sorry man. I said it in the dead thread and it bears repeating, you bring a lot to the game and I look forward to playing with you again.

You know, it wasn't until your very last post in the game thread (sweating bullets) that I started to understand that you weren't as super duper sure of yourself as you constantly made out to be. Frankly I have no idea why I didn't notice it earlier because you're a good ww player and no good ww player could ever, in the history of ever, be that sure of themselves all the time. You had made a couple posts doubting yourself here and there but I'm only noticing them now.

You're dead right that things are a lot easier when you know the answers. It was only when I mislynched savy that I started to come around to the idea of Aubrey as a wolf. Once I hit the dead thread and her role was confirmed, it was suddenly so obvious I couldn't believe I'd missed it. From that point on, it's impossible for me to know how I would have played if I hadn't died. As JV succinctly put it, the dead thread is full of confirmation bias.

With your posts you mention the disconnect between what you're saying and what you're thinking. We are making comments based solely on what you're saying. Like that wolf level where you said you were going to shoot gabe - you knew what you were doing, but surely you can appreciate that your motives are, by design, hidden from everyone else. How can we be expected to read your thoughts when they are wrapped in a veil of trickery and swagger? Or when you unequivocally declared the jyms outing to be fake - you couldn't ever have been so confident there (50/50 at best) and it could have been just a test, but again from where I'm sitting you sounded super certain as that's the only thing that you put on the page. Have a look back through your posts from our perspective wuf.

Did you play badly? I don't know. But I think your misfires get a lot more attention than others simply because of your style of posting, nothing more. You led the village (which I agree is really important because if a villager doesn't do it...) and made superb insights on the wolves when your attention was on them. My very first game (which you modded) you said 'never leave wuf alive in endgame because he's straight pimp at that shit' and you nailed it.

Also, if you want to talk hyperbole I will pull 'vitriol' on you right now.

Oh, also, forgot to say... mad props to luco, who has pretty much proven himself already to be a fucking awesome ww player. He soulread the fuck out of gator and jack early on and was being talked about in the den as a serious problem. Thank fuck he wasn't seer, because it would've been over a lot quicker if he was. His approach is spot on.

And wuf... you can't stop playing now, because you've got your friend addicted. We're all impressed by aubrey, and that's thanks to you introducing her to the forum. So get on whatever chat provider you chat with her on, have a moan about how mean we all are, and get some female perspective, where hopefully she'll convince you that you're highly valued in these games and should keep playing.

And yeah dan has a point. It must be pretty hard to put all that effort into modding, especially on your first attempt, and see people saying it's imbalanced and whatnot. There was a point I thought the game was outright broken, and I didn't feel I had to be sensetive to dan's feelings when making my thoughts known. I wasn't harsh, but I was honest. To dan's credit, he just got on with it, and the game ended up being hugely enjoyable, even for those of us who died quickly. Seems that dan enjoyed modding it, despite the fuck up with the RB, and depsite him being annoyed with a couple of people. Try not to let people ruin your enjoyment. I'm too fucking stubborn to let people on the internet hurt my feelings. Well, I try my hardest anyway. I think I've got annoyed with people at this site on a handful of occasions, and on every occasion, there comes a point where I have a word with myself and reach the conclusion "fuck them". Everyone knows how much of a dick bikes thinks I am. I remember one game where I got pissy with bikes, but it didn't take long before I turned that annoyance on myself for letting people I've never met get to me. I imagined him smirking as he read my waa waa. Took me a while to realise bikes is not really any different to anyone else... he just says what he thinks online and doesn't give a fuck how it's interpreted because lol get thicker skin or get off the internet.

Point is wuf, up until you read the dead thread, did you enjoy playing this game? I'm assuming yes. So don't let the meanies taint that enjoyment. People just say what they feel online, because we can't see your happy little face turn sad. No-one really thinks about people's feeling online, because it almost seems like we're not real people, we're just a name and avatar. Not even an avatar in your case. Get an avatar, maybe that's why people think you're not a real person with real feelings.

Lol, he said taint

I think we should come up with an avatar for wufwugy, maybe one he only uses when he's playing werewolf. It can be a sign to the world that a new game is commencing and a reminder to us all that in spite of his aggressive condescending tone, wufwufy is actually a bit of a pussy.

Don't image search the words "total pussy" if children are around.

Originally Posted by rong

Don't image search the words "total pussy" if children are around.

Fairly certain my company firewall would bring the hammer down on that one. But hey, at least I got 'gambling' unticked on it (lol told boss it was blocking the national lottery mwa ha ha ha)

Edit - couldn't let this one slip by:

Originally Posted by rong

Now I could have got a lot more stick for this than I have, and I'd be prepared to get it and deservedly so, but that's because I wanted to mod a game, I put myself out there and if my game was amazing I'd want the accolades so when I fuck it up I except the consequences of public humiliation.

*accept

@wuf, lol sorry. I didn't realize they had a dead thread and everyone basically knew I was a villager. I thought I was making quite a few people sweat when it turned out to be just you.

@ong -re my getting steamrolled - I'd like to remind you, there were no specials in that game. With all our awesome specials in this game, look at how close it came. Imagine if the wolves had nothing and no one to worry about and could spend all day figuring out how to criss-cross suspicions and over-connect and dis-connect from each other. A game where you have to tone read til the end and Boog is 12-hr time shift off.

Originally Posted by rong

I created a game, kinda implied (blatantly stated?) it would be vanilla, invited lots of people to create an awesome game, then changed my mind about the rules and roles so it wasn't vanilla, which people immediately commented on. It then turned out that the game which I had put so much effort into was really imbalanced and people were actually pointing this out. Then, the team that were at a huge disadvantage due to my set up, totally fucked up to the point where one of the villagers pretty much read the whole village and the game I had set up was completely ruined. The mood in the wolf thread was depressed to the point where I thought they might actually give up and there was winging about the game set up in there. So I was feeling like quite a dick and rather embarrassed.

Luco started the spelling/grammar nitpicking, so I blame him. That should read "whingeing" or "whinging".

Originally Posted by JKDS

Ong was an honory villager. WTF was bikes this game? Did keith do anything?

I think i did. All the PK protection stuff ,the logic of the luco outing etc, and using the vig to choose knowns to shoot unknowns while keeping PK safe and hidden and thus alive. Wolves had me down as a possible PK for ages and discussing whether to eat me.If they had it would have beaten them just on the numbers .Also .....remember when i sugested shooting Gator when he was the surviving shot candidate to keep PK safe and gator questioning whether PK followed the strat .....in hindsight a huge wolf tell. If it had been anyone but gator village may well have gone along with that .

JV died day3 without a seer, honorary villager! JKDS solved the game day2 but sucks so bad that he kept killing his own reads, lul!

To be quite honest, the only player that I think didnt really make any mistakes this game was Gator.

---

I do put some of the blame on you for pushing me off my own reads this game. But obviously most of the blame lies with myself. Further, if my reads were so good...why was I pushed off at all? Hindsight is 20-20 and whatnot. Also, there were many who, like me, thought for sure that you'd pull off the win this game IN SPITE of the bad comments.

---

Are you bad for the village? NO. Players like you, keith, and ong who post shittons and get on people's bad side create arguments that will later get dissected and prove people's roles.

QUoted for truth......just read the dead thread ,JV admitting he has never got so emotionally involved in a game as the time he butted heads with me, rilla's comments about his blood pressure doubling, Aubrey in the wolf thread saying that i was starting to annoy her( not sure if that was when i attacked her or cos of the PK strat stuff)and elsewhere thinking that once i start on someone i don't let go, gabe in the dead thread saying not sure my attack style is helping.
My attack style puts people under pressure, i get under peoples skin and its keeps on. It forces mistakes and I keep reading the thread not notes so spot things that contradict what people have said at different points in the game.
I try and push the rules as far as i can for my teams benefit. I do notice when people are acting /responding differently.I endup with a high attack rate on role players on both sides because role players play differently. If you don't want to stand out , just play your normal villager game , something JV pointed out in the wolf thread to aubrey. She learnt quickly and played well. SHe'll be a dangerous wolf when she can stand up to sustained pressure.

You make good ploys as well. This marks the second time I can remember where you've threatened to shoot (who i thought) was a -EV target...when you're really just doing a reaction test. But idk its a reaction test, and you cant tell anyone, so my only response is "no, hes gonna wuf with it!". Its a good test, and provides great information, its just the downside is you come off as crazy.

You fucking pussies, this is the internet.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

wuf, seriously, any one of us is capable of playing badly enough to be considered a godsend to the wolves. It's inevitable that I'll have a stinker like that one day. Don't take stuff to heart, it's the internet and people type what they think is funny, and often it comes across as harsh. The way you play this game is similar to my early game... it's all about trying to soulread the fuck out of the wolves. That's fine, and when it works, you look awesome, your ego gets a boost, and you get a lot of praise. But if you want the praise when you play well, you gotta take the critisism when you play bad. And despite what everyone was saying in the dead thread, and indeed the wolf den to a lesser degree, most people recognised that you are good enough to see things correctly when it mattered most. I mean for fuck's sake you soulread gator on final day. Not many people do that. You should be pleased with yourself, not heartbroken. It's ok to play badly wuf. You played badly for most of the game, but not when it mattered most. So kudos to you for getting it right in the end.

Seriously, please don't stop playing, you're entertaining as hell.

This 1000%. Also, don't let them forget that in the end you won it for the village.

The internet, also known as the wild wild west, where cold honesty and mockery reign supreme. Fear it!

Why can't I figure out how to get an image off of quickmeme? Overweight emo would be the perfect wufwugy avatar.

Rilla, of course you're right, it was because there were no specials that we felt we could get cocky. And it wasn't really that we steamrolled you, we steamrolled the village. But yeah it was a much easier game than this one. That game will always be a fond ww memory for me, for obvious reasons. I just wanted to remind wuf that even the best can be made to look ordinary. It's the nature of the beast. You just gotta take it on the chin and move on. You still owe me a slapdown.

Originally Posted by rong

Why can't I figure out how to get an image off of quickmeme? Overweight emo would be the perfect wufwugy avatar.

Printscreen. MS paint. Paste. Crop. Save as.

I figured that as an option, but it's too much effort.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

Rilla, of course you're right, it was because there were no specials that we felt we could get cocky. And it wasn't really that we steamrolled you, we steamrolled the village. But yeah it was a much easier game than this one. That game will always be a fond ww memory for me, for obvious reasons. I just wanted to remind wuf that even the best can be made to look ordinary. It's the nature of the beast. You just gotta take it on the chin and move on. You still owe me a slapdown.

It sucks so bad that I don't remember any of my wolf games, or even who i played with. The only reason I can come up with is that I just played scared and didn't put any thought into it. I'll remember this one.

Actually I think I'm confused jack, I don't think you were a wolf with us in the fuck with rilla game. It was me, boog, galap and pascal... of course it was pascal... my previous wolf game with you was with banana, just 3 of us and we all survived for the win.

That was actually a better win, strictly speaking, simply because there were sepcials. But we didn't get cocky, and I like getting cocky. So it's not as fond a memory as the no specials game.

One day my testicles will be large enough to dare to fuck with gator. One day.

Great game to play and watch. I never thought when I died that it would be a last day nail biter.

Thanks rong for a good story and modding.

Nobody knew this but me and the wolfies, but if the receiver died a new one took their place. So the wolves couldn't go for him unless they wanted more confirmed villagers and lookups. I'm fairly sure that me knowing that wuf was a villager got me nommed.

On night 2 I spent some time trying to figure out if a mass outing could lock the game up for the village, it turned out that we were only 1-2 villagers short depending on what the wolves did. Of course it didn't really matter since I got munched that night.

Only thing I would change is remove either the reviver or angel to make things more balanced.

Originally Posted by OngBonga

One day my testicles will be large enough to dare to fuck with gator. One day.

It may not go well for you my friend.

Originally Posted by GatorJH

It may not go well for you my friend.

I might wait until I'm 51, you'll be 68 by then... that's probably my best hope... wait until you start losing your wits!

But if a game ends up being fun for both sides then trying to finely balance it isn't really important.

Originally Posted by Hoopy

But if a game ends up being fun for both sides then trying to finely balance it isn't really important.

Yeah but not to the point of 'fuck it we're screwed let's just have some fun' imbalanced

Originally Posted by Luco

Yeah but not to the point of 'fuck it we're screwed let's just have some fun' imbalanced

Yeah I agree. If anything favoring the wolves slightly makes the game more fun, since they have a smaller team.

Nah I'd prefer to be at a slight disadvantage as wolf if I'm honest, because winning is more satisfying. Rilla is spot on when he points out the wolf win I'm most proud of is not one that I should be so quick to brag about... as nice as it was to win by being cocky, it was imbalanced heavily towards the wolves. It's just my nature to take enjoyment from that one because I have an ego that needs massaging now and then.

Is there a way to make Quick Topic not suck? I can't get it to sort from oldest to newest. I can get that PAGE to sort oldest to newest, but I still have to click back three hundred million fuckin pages before I can start reading the thread.

Originally Posted by surviva316

Is there a way to make Quick Topic not suck? I can't get it to sort from oldest to newest. I can get that PAGE to sort oldest to newest, but I still have to click back three hundred million fuckin pages before I can start reading the thread.

Lol anyone who does the three hundred clicks to start reading, I feel for ya. There's a super easy way to get to page 1:

Add /px.y to the end of the url where x is the higher post and Y is the lower post, up to 600 apart. So /p500.1 shows the first 500 posts.

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jeL9a7FQaNN/p100.1

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/jeL9a7FQaNN/p200.100

Oh my sweet jesus, thank you. I suppose the purpose of quick topic is to keep it as simple as possible, which makes for some oh-sweet-jesusly frustrating side effects.

Originally Posted by jackvance

I didn't read all of it, but if you want an honest answer, from my perspective everything you said is all very standard, even self-help book and TV series realization at the end of the episode kind of thing. I liked your strategy analysis post in this thread better.

(disclaimer: i don't say this to discredit you btw, just thought I'd post my impression for no particular reason)

Just in case you're being serious here (based on the inclusion of a disclaimer, I think you may be), I'll point out that I wasn't being even remotely serious.

Originally Posted by surviva316

Just in case you're being serious here (based on the inclusion of a disclaimer, I think you may be), I'll point out that I wasn't being even remotely serious.

I read your post as serious and I had the biggest grin on my face the whole way through. I thought it was incredibly sweet, even though I didn't agree with it entirely. Plus, I think we have the same inner voice. Felt like I was reading something I wrote myself.

we should all write a bunch of things being really serious. and then wait for responses. and then tell everybody we weren't serious.

i'll tell you ahead of time that my last post is really really serious.

Good game everyone, that was a lot of fun to watch. Thanks for modding, Rong! It sounded like you ran into a bunch of problems, you handled them well. And good job, wuf -- that was a fantastic ending to the game.

The only real complaint I have is the MMM suicide (it's a small complaint, but I think it's worth discussing for future games). I felt it was an overreaction to end the day, because it over-penalized the village.

If his self-lynch had been some kind of angle-shoot, then that response makes sense. But basically he was an absent villager that had enough of a conscience to let the rest of the players know that he wanted out of the game, and he didn't know that self-lynching would trigger the end of the day. I think a better response would have been to tell MMM that he can no longer post in the thread, notify the village that he was silenced and will be modkilled once the day ended, and let the village play out the rest of the day. That lets the village decide if they want to let MMM die from modkill or lynch, and not end all discussion.

Or maybe I'm just bitter because I hoped to get Aubrey lynched that day, which would have significantly lowered my chance of getting shot that night

I liked the new split roles, or at least found them interesting. I think the vig split makes for interesting village strategy, especially in our situation where we could explicitly plan out in advance who shoots who. However, it also makes it a little more difficult on the wolves, because it's more difficult to fake-out as the vig-chooser (as Ong pointed out in the wolf thread).

During the game, I thought the seer/receiver split was over-nerfed, but I didn't know that the receiver role moves on death. Knowing that, I think it's a great addition and does a really good job of leveling the power of the seer. It gives the wolves an extra chance each night of preventing a lookup, even if they miss the seer.

Originally Posted by NightGizmo

The only real complaint I have is the MMM suicide (it's a small complaint, but I think it's worth discussing for future games). I felt it was an overreaction to end the day, because it over-penalized the village.

If his self-lynch had been some kind of angle-shoot, then that response makes sense. But basically he was an absent villager that had enough of a conscience to let the rest of the players know that he wanted out of the game, and he didn't know that self-lynching would trigger the end of the day. I think a better response would have been to tell MMM that he can no longer post in the thread, notify the village that he was silenced and will be modkilled once the day ended, and let the village play out the rest of the day. That lets the village decide if they want to let MMM die from modkill or lynch, and not end all discussion.

Or maybe I'm just bitter because I hoped to get Aubrey lynched that day, which would have significantly lowered my chance of getting shot that night

The problem with that is that even if MMM was silenced, the village would've had the advantage of being able to analyze the thread with the knowledge of yet another confirmed villager.

Day's end means another role is revealed. The day should not have gone on with a revealed role. I think rong handled it 100% correctly. The integrity of the game would have been greatly affected if he hadn't done what he did.

lol, if anything MMM is the honorary wolf. Thanks for that, man!

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

I read your post as serious and I had the biggest grin on my face the whole way through. I thought it was incredibly sweet, even though I didn't agree with it entirely. Plus, I think we have the same inner voice. Felt like I was reading something I wrote myself.

My post to wuf was 100% from the heart (well, okay, there were definitely some silly diversions in there); my post about how I had my pants off, frenetically refreshing the page, waiting for someone to call me a God among men so that I could masturbate was, well...do I really need to clarify?

Originally Posted by NightGizmo

However, it also makes it a little more difficult on the wolves, because it's more difficult to fake-out as the vig-chooser (as Ong pointed out in the wolf thread).

Not uh. It was hard for the wolves to out as any particular special (especially after I auto outted as angel) this game, but the vigilante wasnt any more difficult to out as. Its always been a bad move to out as the vig when he can turn around and just shoot you in the face.

Originally Posted by surviva316

My post to wuf was 100% from the heart (well, okay, there were definitely some silly diversions in there); my post about how I had my pants off, frenetically refreshing the page, waiting for someone to call me a God among men so that I could masturbate was, well...do I really need to clarify?

Sounds legit

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

lol, if anything MMM is the honorary wolf. Thanks for that, man!

YEAH! Also Rong is an honorary wolf for modkilling TWO villagers. Whats up with that???

Originally Posted by surviva316

My post to wuf was 100% from the heart (well, okay, there were definitely some silly diversions in there); my post about how I had my pants off, frenetically refreshing the page, waiting for someone to call me a God among men so that I could masturbate was, well...do I really need to clarify?

Oh I didn't even read that shit you wrote to wuf. The frantic refreshing and divine masturbatory fantasies was what tugged at my heartstrings.

I fail to see how MMM self lynching makes for a confirmed villager. If that's really the case, then I swear to God, the next time I'm wolf, I'm going to vote for myself on the first day if the rules allow for it. That seems totally silly to just auto-assume that this makes a player a villager, and I think the only people who took it that way were the mod and the wolves (because they knew who MMM was independent of his self-vote).

Originally Posted by surviva316

I fail to see how MMM self lynching makes for a confirmed villager. If that's really the case, then I swear to God, the next time I'm wolf, I'm going to vote for myself on the first day if the rules allow for it. That seems totally silly to just auto-assume that this makes a player a villager, and I think the only people who took it that way were the mod and the wolves (because they knew who MMM was independent of his self-vote).

Seriously?

Why would a wolf EVER self-lynch. Threatening to do so is one thing, but actually doing it?

It's not silly at all. Actually think about it for a second.

Plus, MMM clearly wanted out of the game. If he was a wolf he would have never, ever, ever done that, because he wouldn't want to fuck us over. It was incredibly obvious that he was a villager once he did that.

edit: I guess if self-lynching wasn't against the rules then yes, maybe it could be used tactically by the wolves. Not sure it would add to the game or take away from it. Same way editing posts could possibly be allowed, but it seems like an unnecessary complication. I just have this feeling that it wouldn't go over well but I can't articulate why.

Originally Posted by aubreymcfate

Why would a wolf EVER self-lynch. Threatening to do so is one thing, but actually doing it?

Because some people think beyond Level 1? You're asking me why someone whose win condition involves never being suspected as wolf would do something that is perceived to be something that no wolf would ever do. It should be pretty obvious why they would do that.

Again, you're talking from the perspective of knowing all the roles, and a strong villager read confirms what you already know. From everyone else's perspective, they thought that he was a wolf, so a strong villager read isn't going to magically turn him into a "confirmed villager" any more than any other strong villager read does. Hell, what he did was a way less villagery version of throwing a wolf member under the bus than what rilla did, and there were still several villagers suspecting/voting for rilla right down to the penultimate day. Like, I think it's pretty inarguably a more likely thing for a non-villager to do than what rilla did, but I don't feel like making this into a long post unless you ask for clarification.

Originally Posted by surviva316

Because some people think beyond Level 1? You're asking me why someone whose win condition involves never being suspected as wolf would do something that is perceived to be something that no wolf would ever do. It should be pretty obvious why they would do that.

I understand this, hence my edit. I'm all about thinking beyond level 1, lol, trust me. I probably think about it way too much. My point is that it's a modkillable offense, so the moment you do it, it's obvious that you're not a wolf.

I guess your broader question is why is this even a rule, which I admit, I wasn't thinking of it in that way when I responded. So yeah, we could definitely have a conversation about how a self-lynch might be applied to a WW game in general.

If anyone's interested, here's a convo on self-voting from the Mafiascum forum: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=6655

An interesting point made in that thread is the potential for an angle-shoot by the wolves when one wolf has already been looked up by the seer, and his lynch is inevitable anyway, so he self-lynches to cut the day short intentionally.

Right, and that's my point: if a self-lynch cuts the day short, then it's obviously not something a villager would ever do.

If a self-lynch just lingered and then people could either get on its wagon or not, it'd be a different story.

Wait...LOL - I just realized how stupid all of that just made me sound. Republican logic 101. Let me think about why I said that for a second and then edit this, lmao.

Edit:

Okay, yeah. I had a major brain fart. That was embarrassing but whatever, I'll leave it there 'cause the importance of laughing at one's self is the theme of this thread, right?

Anyway, yeah. That is a good point. And not at all part of my original point - god only knows why I said that.

So now I dunno. Eager to hear other people's opinions.

Originally Posted by JKDS

YEAH! Also Rong is an honorary wolf for modkilling TWO villagers. Whats up with that???

Well it was nearly 4.

I'm mainly arguing that (a) there was no policy on self-lynching, (b) MMM's self-lynch was not angle-shooting, so (c) the day should not have ended.

How it hurts the village:
1. A villager is dead.
2. The village did not get to choose that he dies.
3. The village didn't know beforehand that he was a villager, and his self-lynch doesn't make him 100% a villager -- his role will be revealed at the end of the day when he's dead.
4. The village loses most of a game-day of discussion time (this is a huge loss to the village).
5. Considering how early in the day the modkill happened, I expect that many villagers were unprepared for nighttime. The vig-shoot choices could have changed, the lynch could have changed, etc.

If the player was angle shooting, they should die and their side should be penalized (for villagers, the day ends). For example, with more confirmed villagers than wolves (I think, at that point?), the village could have all unconfirmed villagers self-lynch on the same day -- obviously that shouldn't be allowed.

But I also think that if MMM knew that self-lynching would cause the end-of-day, he would have just PMed rong to ask how he can get out of the game instead self-lynching.

Also rong, I'm not trying to criticize your modding -- you had to make a snap judgement, and I didn't think of this until days later or longer. You clearly had to do something regarding MMM. I just think that in the future, the penalty for self-lynching should be better defined.

What's been the deal with self-lynches in the past around here?