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What to do with 10's in the BB

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  1. #1

    Default What to do with 10's in the BB

    Up to this point the UTG had not been get out of line. When he bet 3X I was really not sure what to do in the BB.
    My choice I thought were as follows:

    1:Fold: Don't like at all very weak.
    2:Call: Like, but doing it for two reasons, first is for setting mining and second if the flop was low cards could C bet.
    3:Reraise: Don't like, due to the blinds being so low and building a big pot OOP for really no reason.

    What I am wondering is there another way to play this hand?

    Full Tilt Poker Satellite to Bracelet Race No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t30/t60 Blinds - 8 players - Bretw20 wins a t390 pot at t30/60 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - 9 max on Full Tilt Poker | TheHandConverter.com: Powered by DeucesCracked.com
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    EuniceatHome (SB): t1335 M = 14.83
    Hero (BB): t2255 M = 25.06
    Bretw20 (UTG): t2650 M = 29.44
    mcdonk (UTG+1): t3105 M = 34.50
    tobydawg23 (MP1): t420 M = 4.67
    LaProfessora (MP2): t1390 M = 15.44
    ChaBung888 (CO): t1600 M = 17.78
    Bushwood1732 (BTN): t2305 M = 25.61

    Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BB with Ts Tc
    Bretw20 raises to t180, 6 folds, Hero calls t120

    Flop: (t390) Jh Ad Js (2 players)
    Hero checks, Bretw20 bets t200, Hero folds
  2. #2
    what is it that you want to be different? You could easily shove over PF but I dont hate how you played it.
  3. #3
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    what is it that you want to be different? You could easily shove over PF but I dont hate how you played it.
    shove over with 40 BB??

    i play it the same.
  4. #4
    looks totally fine/standard.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  5. #5
    Yup, that's standard. The flop just wasn't something you could work with. I don't think this is just set mining. There are a lot of flops that you could continue with, this just doesn't happen to be one of them.
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  6. #6
    There is another way you could play that hand, but would it have been the best way?

    Personally I would have folded like you did. You were smart enough to see that you were outgunned in many ways. Sure he could have been agressive to force you to fold, and a small raise you may have called, but seriously I don't think the hand was going to play out very well. Even if you hit a ten on the turn/river I think you woulda lost.

    Woulda lost way more chips...
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  7. #7
    don't lead undercard flops
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    don't lead undercard flops
    c/r them?


    "Gotta run well eventually."
  9. #9
    nah usually just c/c. Even if he has 88 on the 722 board he's not going to like getting c/r very much. But for sure you don't want to lead vs a solid player, you would sometimes have to fold the best hand and would almost always cost yourself a c bet vs worse. Sometimes you just have to let them draw at overs.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEstate View Post
    Hero (BB): t2255 M = 25.06

    Pre Flop: (t90) Hero is BB with Ts Tc
    Bretw20 raises to t180, 6 folds, Hero calls t120
    Quote Originally Posted by fulksy View Post
    shove over with 40 BB??
    What?

    40BB doesn't really matter as villains bet size is whats important. I'm almost never calling in this spot. This big of a raise PF is almost never AA-KK. Flat calling is going to make you hate yourself when an over card hits and all of them smack this bets PF range.

    Villain will most likely always call your shove and I would be very happy with TT in that spot. You aren't going to win a ton of chips from a flop that TT is happy to see so in that case either take it down PF or race it off IMO.
  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    What?

    40BB doesn't really matter as villains bet size is whats important. I'm almost never calling in this spot. This big of a raise PF is almost never AA-KK. Flat calling is going to make you hate yourself when an over card hits and all of them smack this bets PF range.

    Villain will most likely always call your shove and I would be very happy with TT in that spot. You aren't going to win a ton of chips from a flop that TT is happy to see so in that case either take it down PF or race it off IMO.
    W-w-w-what? Are you reading the same HH? Utg raises 3x in early levels.. what is so odd about this (why would it never be AA/KK?).
    You want to shove 40bb's deep in a tourney with a flat payout structure in early levels... w TT vs a Utg raise? You figure a worse hand ever calls you here?
  12. #12
    [ ] Villain will most likely always call your shove

    I'm assuming gris came back to level us or something. sup bro!
    Last edited by drmcboy; 04-07-2010 at 06:10 PM.
  13. #13
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poker orifice View Post
    w-w-w-what? Are you reading the same hh? Utg raises 3x in early levels.. What is so odd about this (why would it never be aa/kk?).
    You want to shove 40bb's deep in a tourney with a flat payout structure in early levels... W tt vs a utg raise? You figure a worse hand ever calls you here?
    ^^^^^ this
  14. #14
    I actually read the structure incorrectly and this could for sure be AA-KK but I also think it can be much wider. I still don't think a shove is terrible. If villain would have raised to 4x instead would you all still be wanting a flat?

    If we are 100bbs deep and villain raises 20bbs regardless of the blind size would you still think its weird to shove over with say AKo "just because we are 100bbs deep"?
  15. #15
    so you're saying since shipping over a 20x raise with AK is good with 100BBs, we shove TT to a 3x raise with 40 BBs? I think I get it, but can you post some math?
    Last edited by drmcboy; 04-08-2010 at 01:08 AM.
  16. #16
    Vs. an UTG player who has not gotten out of line (with 40 BBs) I'd just about always flat TT and seriously consider folding AQ.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  17. #17
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    I actually read the structure incorrectly and this could for sure be AA-KK but I also think it can be much wider. I still don't think a shove is terrible. If villain would have raised to 4x instead would you all still be wanting a flat?

    If we are 100bbs deep and villain raises 20bbs regardless of the blind size would you still think its weird to shove over with say AKo "just because we are 100bbs deep"?

    what? This is an UTG raise from a player that "hasn't got out of line" how is a 20Xbb raise equivalent to a 3Xbb raise. (i understand its similar % of our stack) but the the situation matters? a player open raising 20 BB Utg is obviously a completely different situation and it would depend on my reads of this player.
  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    If villain would have raised to 4x instead would you all still be wanting a flat?
    yes i would still flat, as i think almost nothing that we beat calls except maybe AK. and usually everything that beats us calls.
  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    so you're saying since shipping over a 20x raise with AK is good with 100BBs, we shove TT to a 3x raise with 40 BBs? I think I get it
    please explain how you get it, because i'm not understanding how this is the same.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    If we are 100bbs deep and villain raises 20bbs regardless of the blind size
    Where did I say shove 20x ^^^...fulksy doc is being sarcastic. My point is that a lot of you are getting too caught up in "how many BB deep we are". Once someone raises, its almost as if their raise size becomes the new BB. I am also aware that doc is good enough to do this on his own but I guess I'll humor him.


    This is a $10 sat...The ranges here don't have to be super tight but Ill go with this.
    Hand 0: 51.954% { TT }
    Hand 1: 48.046% { 77+, AJs+, KQs, AJo+, KQo }

    Hero stack worth if folds: .14
    hero push, villain fold: .16
    hero push, and villain call, hero win: .27
    hero push, villain call, hero lose: 0

    hero FE: 36.31%
    (.36*.16) + (.32*.27) + (.33*0) = .057+.086 = .14

    Push is neutral EV but there are more things to consider than just that.
    A) What flop are you really happy to do anything other than check? How often will that board type come up?
    B) Villain can fold and hero adds 10% to his stack.
    C) Hero can still win if called in which case if he does. He will have 34% of the chips in play and assuming all player edges equal. He will win the tourney more than 1/3rd of the time.

    BTW I didn't know the pay out structure so I just assumed this was a stt with top two getting a seat.

    If anyone is interested or would like to check math:
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...se-136353.html

    As for the 100bb, 20bb raise hand

    This is too general of a statement to make and add any real math. However its a point people should think about. Say in OP villain raised to 600 pf instead. We are still 38bb deep but flat calling would be terrible. What if villain made this bet with the same range he 3x from UTG? I think this illustrates what I was trying to get at more.
  21. #21
    is this a 2+2 initiation thing?

    why would you make a neutral EV play when calling is clearly +EV?

    can you post a hand of someone calling a 40 BB ship with 77? The good news is KQ is also lol

    start the story with this:

    "I had AK and shoved over a 20 BB raise and the guy had K7s"

    and end it with this:

    "And that's why shipping TT over a 3x open is the best play."

    when you post it on P5s, because this isn't working at all.


    I can often find flops to bet with TT.
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by fulksy View Post
    please explain how you get it, because i'm not understanding how this is the same.
    how hard is it to understand? Ship, ride the wave. Poker is an ocean. There are no flops to bet.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    this is too general of a statement to make and add any real math.
    good call imo
  24. #24
    my head hurts, i swear this thread is a giant multi-layered level.

    lol@ rips on 2+2 and P5s dr
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by revolvingiris View Post
    I actually read the structure incorrectly and this could for sure be AA-KK but I also think it can be much wider. I still don't think a shove is terrible.
    I admitted to reading the structure wrong

    I also dont get the whole 2+2, p5 thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    I can often find flops to bet with TT.
    Care to get off your pedestal and explain how this is SUCH AN OVERWHELMING +EV PLAY?
  26. #26
    wAT
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  27. #27
    Well played, honestly. AJJ just runs right into his range. I'd consider a check raise, but probably not that often. Any lead you make there is pretty weak. Maybe you could do it to setup another play later, but donk betting sucks and we all knew that already. He could definitely be betting a lower pair there since you showed no aggression on either street. There's some justification for raising pre, but then you're out of position if he calls. I don't love folding a pair on a paired board, but you just gotta do it sometime.
  28. #28
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post
    how hard is it to understand? Ship, ride the wave. Poker is an ocean. There are no flops to bet.
    ahhhh got it, thanks
  29. #29
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  30. #30
    Wow-all this for TT in the blinds. At this blind level, early in the game, you played it well. Calling is fine here, hope to hit the set or low flop else easy hand to get off of with little risked.
  31. #31
    Looks like you played it optimally.

    "don't lead undercard flops"

    I need to remember this at times!
    It's not how many pots you win, it's what's in them that counts.
  32. #32
    If UTG is playing with a range that's close to 7%, you are crushed. This flop hits an UTG 7% range about 80% of the time, 24 TP combos, 9 combos that make a full house, crushed by KK/QQ and obv. JJ. This is if you put him on a tight range.
  33. #33
    Looks good/nothing wrong with a standard play.
  34. #34
    Pocket 10s is a great hand to be dealt. Before pre-flop I like to try and get all of the weak hands off the board and then play from the flop. Maybe a 4x to 5x bet of the BB is sufficient depending on how much money you got and what round the blinds are in.
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