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Turbo Tactics

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  1. #1

    Default Turbo Tactics

    I just ventured into the rollercoaster world of Turbo SNG's and was wondering how the strategy differs from regular SNG's. Do you typiclly loosen up your starting requirements by playing speculative hands like KJo, weak A, mid connectors, etc. earlier or do you have the same starting requirements just play them harder.

    Help me out here FTR brethren (and sista's).
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  2. #2
    Don't change your game. Just realize that you will hit push/fold mode faster.

    The average turbo player thinks they need to gamble more but this is not true.
  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by WildBobAA
    Don't change your game. Just realize that you will hit push/fold mode faster.

    The average turbo player thinks they need to gamble more but this is not true.
    This is very true.

    One piece of advice, though, is that the 10bb rule may not apply as much. Sometimes in turbos it is the right play to push at 50/100 with a 1200-1300 stack just because you can't afford to wait until the blinds go up again when you will be at ~7 bb.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Alibi
    One piece of advice, though, is that the 10bb rule may not apply as much. Sometimes in turbos it is the right play to push at 50/100 with a 1200-1300 stack just because you can't afford to wait until the blinds go up again when you will be at ~7 bb.
    That is certainly one thing I have noticed. People tend to get into push/fold mode with larger stacks than in a regular SNG and your reasoning makes sense. When the blinds go up so fast you can't wait till your M gets down to 10 or less to make moves or you could lose all of your FE before you pick up another hand to push with.
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  5. #5
    Turbo is more of a preflop game then regular Sngs.
    It is a shallow stack tournament and once the blinds hit 75/150 most of the decisions are done preflop or on the flop, because stacks are not really deep enough for 4 rounds of betting.

    Regarding gambling more in Sngs, I think there are more situations in Sngs when you will take a coinflip then regualr Sngs, simply because you have much less time to wait for good hands. This is especially true when you stack is 6-7 times the BB.
    In addition I think turbos reward agression more then regular Sngs


  6. #6
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    I've been playing the PP Turbos ($5+1) for a while (yeah, I know I play the wimpiest stakes) and I'm about breakeven, so keep that in mind...

    I usually try to keep track of what my M will be at the next level of the blinds and play according to that anticipated level.

    While "tight is right" still seems to apply for the first few blind levels, you have to do a lot of table reading and open up as soon as feasible. I've seen tables that hang on with all 10 players until everyone is about to hit M10, or explode and lose 5 players in a matter of the first few orbits.

    I think position is perhaps even more important because people can be itchy to make a move so quickly. I actually have almost stopped attempting to steal from the button because its so common for the BB to fight back super-fierce if it's too obvious. Now the cutoff position is my fave steal spot.

    I haven't figured out how to handle 88-JJ. I don't have PT handy but I wouldn't be surprised if TT and JJ are some of my biggest losses in SNGs because they easily turn into destackers.

    Because people are so willing to push any advantage, I've found trapping to be much more profitable than you might expect at this low-stake level. I'd be curious to go see my stats on Axs, come to think of it.
    Note: new guy and very open to constructive criticism, so go ahead and weigh in! I'm here to learn.
  7. #7

    Default 6 +.50 turbos

    I am ITM aprox 65% or more in this. I still play supertight, expecially if I am one of the smaller stacks. I often grind my way up for 9th to 1st place. The only time you can afford to loosen up is if you have a comfortable chip lead and play position, you can then bully the smaller stacks. There are a lot of fish at this level and they WILL knock each other out. The best raises or all ins are made on the button, where it is the most profitable and have the least chance of running into a better hand. Every time I stray from this philosophy I bust out. I think I am a better poker player than the rest and I loosen up and I just run into better hands. If you are getting completey cold cards dont take chances, especially if the blinds are still small. I often wait until I have 3-4x the BB before making the all-in. I would like to hear other
    peoples experience with this. Oh yeah also. Never ever limp pre flop unless you are in the blind. PERIOD. Don't play KJ suited or A6 suited. Of you flop a 4 flush you now have to pay to chase. If you hit an A or 6, now what?
  8. #8

    Default Re: 6 +.50 turbos

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    I am ITM aprox 65% or more in this. I still play supertight, expecially if I am one of the smaller stacks. I often grind my way up for 9th to 1st place. The only time you can afford to loosen up is if you have a comfortable chip lead and play position, you can then bully the smaller stacks. There are a lot of fish at this level and they WILL knock each other out. The best raises or all ins are made on the button, where it is the most profitable and have the least chance of running into a better hand. Every time I stray from this philosophy I bust out. I think I am a better poker player than the rest and I loosen up and I just run into better hands. If you are getting completey cold cards dont take chances, especially if the blinds are still small. I often wait until I have 3-4x the BB before making the all-in. I would like to hear other
    peoples experience with this. Oh yeah also. Never ever limp pre flop unless you are in the blind. PERIOD. Don't play KJ suited or A6 suited. Of you flop a 4 flush you now have to pay to chase. If you hit an A or 6, now what?
    u are waiting far too long to make an all in move.
  9. #9
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    Default Re: 6 +.50 turbos

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    I am ITM aprox 65% or more in this.
    I'm no psychic, but I'm guessing you've played well under 500 games.

    Also, if you're waiting until you have 3-4x BB you're losing so much fold equity. Plus if the blinds double, then you're suddenly a sitting duck.
  10. #10

    Default Re: 6 +.50 turbos

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    I am ITM aprox 65% or more in this.
    Sounds like you are on a big heater, this isn't sustainable in the long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    Don't play KJ suited or A6 suited. Of you flop a 4 flush you now have to pay to chase. If you hit an A or 6, now what?
    You can't generalise like this. I agree that early in the tourney, if you're in early position these are autofolds but if it's 4-handed, you have 5x BB left and it's folded to you in the SB, are you really folding KJs/A6s?
  11. #11
    You have missed my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Blinds in Turbos go up pretty fast. Sometimes, you just don't get any cards. There is no point in risking your entire stack on an A6 or Q7 offsuit. If you wait other players will knock each other out. Don't loosen up your starting hand selection. Don't even play AJ unless it is late in the game with big blinds. It's just not worth it. I am ITM 60-70% of the time so I am doing something right.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    You have missed my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Blinds in Turbos go up pretty fast. Sometimes, you just don't get any cards. There is no point in risking your entire stack on an A6 or Q7 offsuit. If you wait other players will knock each other out. Don't loosen up your starting hand selection. Don't even play AJ unless it is late in the game with big blinds. It's just not worth it. I am ITM 60-70% of the time so I am doing something right.
    Whilst I agree that there is value in waiting for other players to knock themselves out, you can't rely on this completely. You have to loosen up your hand range as the blinds increase and it gets shorthanded. Take the following example (PS turbo structure):

    UTG: 4000 chips
    Button: 4500 chips
    You (SB): 2000 chips
    BB: 3000 chips

    Blinds are 200/400 ante 25. You pick up Q7 offsuit and it's folded to you. You have to push this - it is a massively +EV push. Sure, Q7o isn't a great hand but say the BB calls with 44+,A7s+,A9o+,KJs+ (if he calls and loses he is crippled), then 88% of the time he's folding and you pick up 700 in blinds and antes. Even if he calls, you have a 31% chance to win. So 91.6% of the time you either pick up the blinds or double up. Sure, 8.4% of the time you will be out in 4th but with your stack size you will be blinded out within 10-12 hands and finish 4th anyway so you need to make a move!

    How many tourneys have you played? 65% ITM is simply not sustainable over the long term (500+ games).
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Bones
    You have missed my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Blinds in Turbos go up pretty fast. Sometimes, you just don't get any cards. There is no point in risking your entire stack on an A6 or Q7 offsuit. If you wait other players will knock each other out. Don't loosen up your starting hand selection. Don't even play AJ unless it is late in the game with big blinds. It's just not worth it. I am ITM 60-70% of the time so I am doing something right.
    I am willing to bet 100 bucks you havnt played more than 1000 SNGs and sustained 60-70% ITM.

    U also have a shit load fo 3rds dont u?
  14. #14
    RayBones,

    The strategy of waiting for other people to knock themselves out may get you a lot of squeaks into the money in the very low buy ins, but it is not doable in higher buy ins when players know how to pressure the shortstack


  15. #15
    Gator. Can I ask how often the blinds go up att he turbo's you play (and what site you're playing on). Just interested that's all.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kevster
    Gator. Can I ask how often the blinds go up att he turbo's you play (and what site you're playing on). Just interested that's all.
    I play at Pokerstars where they go up every 5 minutes.
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  17. #17
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    hijack, wtf i havent seen kevster's avatar before.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    hijack, wtf i havent seen kevster's avatar before.
    sweeeeet (a fellow brit too)
    That's some sig Miffed!

    My avatar was Baron Greenback from Dangermouse looming over the globe in a "It will be mine" kind of way. I guess you could say Alizee is somewhat nicer to look at

    Loads of images of her on Google if you fancy perving some more.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevster
    Quote Originally Posted by Miffed22001
    hijack, wtf i havent seen kevster's avatar before.
    sweeeeet (a fellow brit too)
    That's some sig Miffed!

    My avatar was Baron Greenback from Dangermouse looming over the globe in a "It will be mine" kind of way. I guess you could say Alizee is somewhat nicer to look at

    Loads of images of her on Google if you fancy perving some more.
    just once or twice a day in the sng forum will do nicely for me
  20. #20
    I disagree with all who thinks you have to go into push or fold mode when you have 10xbb left, this is still a good stack when playing turbos. If you dont get the chance to double up before the blinds increase I have seen a pattern in the big stacks play. The big stacks seems to call with less good hands to my all-in when 4-5 left, they are just dying to kick me out and when I get a hand like AJ+ im all-in and I often see them call with hands like K9 A3, and this is just inviting to double me up.

    Yesterday I played a Turbo, we are 3 ppl left (this is a shorthanded sng 5 ppl) the blinds were 150-300 and I had 1700 chips left, I stayed patient and only pushed with Ax and K9+ and keeped my stack at 17oo for 1,5 min or so, the other guys had 2800 and 3000, the guy with 2800 aparently thinks the same as many others "that you have to push with less than 10xbb" he pushed with A30 and got called at the 3000 stack that showed AKs and he lost, and im in the money. I now started pushing with more hands and got called 2 times with hands that were worse than mine even I one of the times only were 56% favorite and I ended up winning that SnG. This tells me that you dont have to push with less than 10xbb, its stupid.

    I once had a text file with Sheetsworlds Step Higher $5000 buy-in Handhistory I found somewhere on google, but I cant seem to find it anymore, but it had some very interresting play that is a lot like the situations youre in, in a Turbo with sky high blinds and small stacks.

    If anyone here can find that Sheetsworld Handhistory it would be cool
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by soft
    I disagree with all who thinks you have to go into push or fold mode when you have 10xbb left, this is still a good stack when playing turbos. If you dont get the chance to double up before the blinds increase I have seen a pattern in the big stacks play. The big stacks seems to call with less good hands to my all-in when 4-5 left, they are just dying to kick me out and when I get a hand like AJ+ im all-in and I often see them call with hands like K9 A3, and this is just inviting to double me up.

    Yesterday I played a Turbo, we are 3 ppl left (this is a shorthanded sng 5 ppl) the blinds were 150-300 and I had 1700 chips left, I stayed patient and only pushed with Ax and K9+ and keeped my stack at 17oo for 1,5 min or so, the other guys had 2800 and 3000, the guy with 2800 aparently thinks the same as many others "that you have to push with less than 10xbb" he pushed with A30 and got called at the 3000 stack that showed AKs and he lost, and im in the money. I now started pushing with more hands and got called 2 times with hands that were worse than mine even I one of the times only were 56% favorite and I ended up winning that SnG. This tells me that you dont have to push with less than 10xbb, its stupid.

    I once had a text file with Sheetsworlds Step Higher $5000 buy-in Handhistory I found somewhere on google, but I cant seem to find it anymore, but it had some very interresting play that is a lot like the situations youre in, in a Turbo with sky high blinds and small stacks.

    If anyone here can find that Sheetsworld Handhistory it would be cool
    the blinds are
    150/300
    u have 2400 chips
    u raise to 900 with AJo
    someone who covers u shoves
    ur pot odds are now 3300:1500 are u going to fold?

    if ur answer is no,
    then u probably shouldve shoved int he first place.

    this is wat we mean by push fold.

    Are u suggesting that the guy with 2800 chips should have raised to 900? to 1200? 1000? Limped?
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by vqc
    Quote Originally Posted by soft
    I disagree with all who thinks you have to go into push or fold mode when you have 10xbb left, this is still a good stack when playing turbos. If you dont get the chance to double up before the blinds increase I have seen a pattern in the big stacks play. The big stacks seems to call with less good hands to my all-in when 4-5 left, they are just dying to kick me out and when I get a hand like AJ+ im all-in and I often see them call with hands like K9 A3, and this is just inviting to double me up.

    Yesterday I played a Turbo, we are 3 ppl left (this is a shorthanded sng 5 ppl) the blinds were 150-300 and I had 1700 chips left, I stayed patient and only pushed with Ax and K9+ and keeped my stack at 17oo for 1,5 min or so, the other guys had 2800 and 3000, the guy with 2800 aparently thinks the same as many others "that you have to push with less than 10xbb" he pushed with A30 and got called at the 3000 stack that showed AKs and he lost, and im in the money. I now started pushing with more hands and got called 2 times with hands that were worse than mine even I one of the times only were 56% favorite and I ended up winning that SnG. This tells me that you dont have to push with less than 10xbb, its stupid.

    I once had a text file with Sheetsworlds Step Higher $5000 buy-in Handhistory I found somewhere on google, but I cant seem to find it anymore, but it had some very interresting play that is a lot like the situations youre in, in a Turbo with sky high blinds and small stacks.

    If anyone here can find that Sheetsworld Handhistory it would be cool
    the blinds are
    150/300
    u have 2400 chips
    u raise to 900 with AJo
    someone who covers u shoves
    ur pot odds are now 3300:1500 are u going to fold?

    if ur answer is no,
    then u probably shouldve shoved int he first place.

    this is wat we mean by push fold.

    Are u suggesting that the guy with 2800 chips should have raised to 900? to 1200? 1000? Limped?
    That is a question that can be asked for regular SNG's as well as Turbo's. The big difference though is the rate at which the blinds go up and how that affects when you go into push/fold mode.

    I certainly agree that you don't need to go into push/fold mode at 10xBB in a regular SNG because you will see more hands before the blinds go up again. However, in a turbo I don't think you can be as patient.

    I compared two tournaments, one regular and one turbo, and show below how many hands were played at each level for both tournaments.

    Level Turbo Hands Regular Hands Blinds and Antes
    1 4 10 10/20
    2 6 9 15/30
    3 6 10 25/50
    4 5 18 50/100
    5 7 10 75/150
    6 9 11 100/200
    7 9 15 100/200 25
    8 9 22 200/400 50
    9 12 (heads up) 21 (4 players) 300/600 50

    It's not hard to notice that once the blinds get higher the amount of hands you get to play per blind level go up dramatically in a regural SNG, but not so in a Turbo.

    The reason I point that out is that this is why many people (and I am one of them) agree that you can't wait on Ax or K9+ type hands to push in a turbo game or you will die a slow death.
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.

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