TT on SB to a raise ($33)

Mid-tourney, MP2 a TAGG, BB bit of a nit. Do we always shove over here even with a healthy stack and the big stack still to act?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is $200 (7 handed) by Hand Converter CG

BB ($4470)
UTG ($1530)
MP1 ($1810)
MP2 ($2910)
CO ($3680)
Button ($1500)
Hero ($4100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T, T.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $500, CO folds, Button folds, Hero ??

I'll wait to respond until a few others do.

I'd make it like 1700, if the big stack pushes we have a decision.

Anything wrong with seeing a flop and leading out on a non scarey board here?

Although I'd probably just shove over.

Originally Posted by ilosemostly

Anything wrong with seeing a flop and leading out on a non scarey board here?

Although I'd probably just shove over.

The flop will be scarey more than 50% of the time here for us.

Also, what if we push and the BB wakes up with AA and calls our push....shit.

I like Bob's line. Make villain know he has no FE against us, but we can get out if BB pushes.

Now for another question... Lets say you were in the BB in this situation. What would be your range for pushing over? Especially if the SB is thinking (which in this case he is), because if he is only raising he is leaving himself an out against us (the bigstack).

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

Also, what if we push and the BB wakes up with AA and calls our push....shit.

The chance of being dealt AA is about 0.5%. Are we really going to worry about a 1 in 221 chance?

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

I like Bob's line. Make villain know he has no FE against us, but we can get out if BB pushes.

We fold the best hand reasonably often here, no? If we reshove, BB can't call with anything but JJ/QQ+, if we just re-raise opp can reshove quite a bit wider...

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

Now for another question... Lets say you were in the BB in this situation. What would be your range for pushing over? Especially if the SB is thinking (which in this case he is), because if he is only raising he is leaving himself an out against us (the bigstack).

If the SB raised to 1500 I'd shove over with something like 99+, AQ+. If the SB shoved I'd only call with QQ+, maybe JJ.

BB bit of a nit

We fold the best hand reasonably often here, no? If we reshove, BB can't call with anything but JJ/QQ+, if we just re-raise opp can reshove quite a bit wider...

Quite a bit like what hand?

The problem with flat calling is that the BB now needs to call 300 into 1200 pot, which he will do with a wide range, and then we play 3 handed OOP, which is not a great postition to be with holding pocket T.

I think bob's line is correct, you want to get the BB to fold and play HU vs the raiser.

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

I'd make it like 1700, if the big stack pushes we have a decision.

If you just plan to fold you just turned your hand into 23o, since MP2 will rarely flat call unless he has a monster. If we're going to call a push isn't it better to just shove?

three way allin is what we are trying to avoid I think. And I like that we can shove any flop we want acting first if bb folds and the other calls.

Originally Posted by MuddyWicket

three way allin is what we are trying to avoid I think. And I like that we can shove any flop we want acting first if bb folds and the other calls.

But why is MP2 going to call? He is a nit, who is OOP for the stack sizes. The only reason MP2 would call is if he has KK/AA and wants to encourage a shove on the flop. Raising to 1700 gains nothing but loses us FE. I don't get it.

The are 800 chips in the middle or 20% of our stack.

Push.

Originally Posted by badgers

Originally Posted by WildBobAA

I'd make it like 1700, if the big stack pushes we have a decision.

If you just plan to fold you just turned your hand into 23o, since MP2 will rarely flat call unless he has a monster. If we're going to call a push isn't it better to just shove?

when bob said big stack, he meant BB. obv we are calling MP2.

The question is just if you want to try and dodge a huge hand from BB by raising vs shoving.

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

Originally Posted by ilosemostly

Anything wrong with seeing a flop and leading out on a non scarey board here?

The flop will be scarey more than 50% of the time here for us.

How much over 50% though? Obv we don't have the odds to play for set value only, but 12% of the time we hit trips, how often all unders?

Originally Posted by taipan168

Originally Posted by Zee Devee

Also, what if we push and the BB wakes up with AA and calls our push....shit.

The chance of being dealt AA is about 0.5%. Are we really going to worry about a 1 in 221 chance?

I would hate to see JJ+ and not particularly happy about AJ+,KJ+,QJ+ since I don't wanna be flipping here, I want to dominate. Flipping with the shorter stack I don't mind but BB calling is bad news.

Originally Posted by TLR

The problem with flat calling is that the BB now needs to call 300 into 1200 pot, which he will do with a wide range, and then we play 3 handed OOP, which is not a great postition to be with holding pocket T.

I actually don't mind being OOP here since we're either 1) missing a scary flop and getting out cheap 2) stop'n'going a flop of all unders or 3) hitting trips, no?

Is someone really calling with 77 on a 932 flop? I think almost every time you get action when you

2) stop'n'going a flop of all unders

you get shown a bigger over pair or a set or a draw. Win small lose big.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Originally Posted by taipan168

We fold the best hand reasonably often here, no? If we reshove, BB can't call with anything but JJ/QQ+, if we just re-raise opp can reshove quite a bit wider...

Quite a bit like what hand?

Originally Posted by taipan168

If the SB raised to 1500 I'd shove over with something like 99/TT+, AQ+. If the SB shoved I'd only call with QQ+.

I saw that after I posted but I still don't get it. You want him to fold hands we flip against and only play when we're dominated?

Originally Posted by drmcboy

I saw that after I posted but I still don't get it. You want him to fold hands we flip against and only play when we're dominated?

I guess that's right - and it's due to the ICM effect. If BB only calls with JJ+ then he's only calling 2% of the time. Taking a flip here is really bad news because we're second stack up against the big stack. If BB showed me QJo face up and says "I'll call if you shove" and MP2 says, "I'll get out of the way if you and BB go at it", I would still have to fold here despite MP2's dead chips.

Back to OP's hand, I shove it.

I have 3 % as JJ, AK, 5% as 99, AQ+ so I think we're splitting hairs - probably if he folds AQ to a RR or shove it's better to RR, if not it's better to shove. And the same in reverse for 99.