TT and I need to double up

Ok playing a $30 re-buy add-on tourney. I believe the blinds were at 50/100. I am down to somewhere around 1100 chips and need to make a move. I get TT in either UTG or UTG +1. Table has been pretty tight and weak (raises of 2X blind, giving pot odds on draws, etc.) (I had been up a good chunk but took a big hit when I put someone all-in when I had 2 pair and s/he had a flush draw and hit). I am ok with going all-in with this hand if it's heads up (at this table I probably woulda folded to two re-raises). My question is: do I make my normal 3x BB raise or just go all-in and hope to get a caller?

I would say Push with the TT. Even though the table is pretty tight and weak if you just raise to 3xBB you look like you want some action thus scaring the weak tight players away. Small stacks that just raise instead of push make me wary.

Furthermore, say that you raise, and 2 overcards come, what do you do? What range of hands would call a 3xBB raise? If you get 2 callers and a K and Q come, I would say that you pushing the flop would get u killed. I think you should push preflop. Picking up the blinds isnt exactly a bad hting at this point.

First off, I just want to say you're in no need of making a move quite yet. Desperatioin kicks in at 3-5 the BB. You had 11BB.

There's two ways to play this. You can push and you'll most likely get called by overcards or a dominated hand which means ur a coinflip at best. Or you could raise 3-4 X see how the flop treats and how the other player(s) in the hand reacts and push or fold. The latter is how I would have played it.

call to see a flop, if someone raises behind you, push.

gabe, does hte flop texture come into consideration for thisplay, or does it not matter?

you mean the table texture?? i'm not saying the limp-reraise is the play you want to do, but if someone does raise behind you, you can try to isolate them by pushing. if you just open-push, you will only get called by a hand that beats you. if no one raises, you can play for set/overpair value and still be fine.

ah i got confused from the original post, I thought you meant, call and hten push the flop, not call and then push if raised. WOOPS!

I'm with Gabe on this. You weren't in a desperate position yet. It just felt that way because you just took a big hit and were probably sitting with some much larger stacks.

But a tight table means a Predictable table. 3xBB raise under the gun at a tight table means, any caller has 2 overcards and any raiser has a pocket pair (you'll just have guess whether it's higher or lower and decide whether to push or call AI if he pushed). 3xBB if you get a caller then look at the texture of the flop, no overcards push it, A is definate bad card, K may or may not be bad, you might be up against AQ.

I want to raise TT in this position and get some info on this hand, a reraise or call is info, seeing the flop is info.

On a side note, what's your bankroll? My working abnkroll is about $1000, and while I play $30 MTT's without any issue, I won't get involved in a $30 R/A because you can easily throw 10% of a $1000 bankroll into a single MTT - which is atrocious BR management.

My bankroll is now around 3,000. I actually like the rebuy add-on tourneys because I NEVER rebuy or add-on. That way even making it to the money which, IMO, generally is a waste of time, actually makes it worth it. In general, I've found that over the whole tourney you have to play two hands better than everyone else (doubling up twice early essentially gives you the re-buy and the add-on), but over the whole tourney that can be done more often than not. I agree that at a freeze out tourney 11BB is not time for desperation. But in a re-buy add-on it was. We were in the last stage before the first break where basically the whole field (except for me) adds-on. I don't play just to survive, I play to win so I did feel I needed to make a move with this hand, I just didnt like my position.
Long story short - I raised 400. Two callers (one guy in mid-position other guy was button). Flop came out A58 (two hearts). I checked, second guy bet 700 (putting me all-in), third guy called, I folded. Second guy ended up losing with 8K spades versus A5 os.
So looking back I thought I screwed up by my normal raise preflop - thought I shoulda pushed (and probably woulda stolen the blinds). But now I'm thinking just cuz I lost doesn't mean I made the worst play (just fishing for opinions).

I would strongly disagree with not rebuying or not adding on. Your spending less money, but your losing ALOT of leverage, not too mention doubling up has less of an effect. Which is one of the 2 best things about rebuys, the other being larger prize pools. If you dont want to rebuy or addon, nor play a bit looser in the rebuy hour, then just play freezeouts.

I'm also not sure about the logic of no rebuy, and not adding on (unless you're so short you don't think you can win) is just madness. Sure you can double up once and it's just like you re bought... except that if you had re bought you would have double the chips... I think 30R/A is pretty steep on a 3K BR, which is probably why you're playing like this.

You even mention yourself that you made a move "because everyone else was about to add on"... what does that tell you? You're making the game harder.

Again, I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you. If I'm gonna play for $90 by rebuying and adding on, then I'll just play for $90 in a freeze out. There are SO MANY hacks who share your opinion that I more often than not can triple up in the first hour making the re-buy a non-issue (the foolios who are playing their K8 suiteds actually do lose more often than not to my big slick). AND since so many people do re-buy and add-on I am now actually making money by making the money. If one of the hacks catches, then fine I'm out $30 and am fine with that. But $30 almost always brings home a profit of around $100 in these tourneys simply by making the money. That actually is worth 3-4 hours of play for me. Do a little better and make the final table and blam - now it really is profitable. I came in 7th last week and my $30 brought home a profit of over $850. If I had re-bought and added on - I think i woulda ended in the same place (I was in first place and took two huge bad beats) so my profit woulda been cut by $60.

Cool, if it works for you I guess roll with it, more power to you. It just seems like you're giving up chips that those hacks would have given you if they didn't start having you out chipped 2-1. And those chips may have been the difference between those bad beats breaking you vs taking you down to an average stack.

Again, I'm gonna have to agree to disagree with you.

Have fun with that. Hope you stick around long enough to learn somethings.

I do understand your guys argument and it makes sense in some situations. But I still hold on to my 2 hand theory. IMO rebuying and adding on saves you from having to win two additional hands. In a 3-4 hour tourney I am still confident enough in my play that I think I can overcome that difference. I agree if I double up early with 3,000 I am now at 6,000 rather than just 3,000 (a difference of 3,000) chips. But it also seems to me that about 90% of those who play these tourneys both re-buy and add-on. And because of that they play looser than loose the first hour (these 90% are thinking hell if I catch a hand I'm way up and if I lose so what, I'll just re-buy again). I play like how I normally would play a freeze-out. And when I make it past the first hour, which I normally do - suddenly everyone freezes up and pots are just there for the taking (the 90% are now thinking shit, I've just spent $120-150 on this damn tourney playing like a fool, now I've got to tighten up and play for "real").
A couple of times I have gotten upset because I'll make it to the bubble and get offed. Damn, I shoulda re-bought or added-on I think and then I would have at least made the money. But making the money when you've rebought and added-on is the same as just getting your money back. And no one likes that. Add to that the oof factor being freater in a rebuy tourney and I just don't like the value of the re-buy. If I put in $60 for 3,000 chips, the likelihood of those 90% still playing 9J suited against my AK doesn't change. But it makes the beat that much worse - for $30 I am fine wishing loose man the best of luck continuing to catch cards. For $60 my best of luck is usually a Helmuth whine and cheese session.

rebuying and adding on will not change the cards you get. Just because you rebuy and addon, doesnt mean your playing like manaic. When I play rebuys, I average between 3-5 buyins. Generally 3 gets me there, the immediate rebuy to start with, and an addon after the first hour. Every other good tournament player on this forum will tell you the same, or something simular. Also, there is a difference between playing looser and playing loose.

Originally Posted by drmcboy

Cool, if it works for you I guess roll with it, more power to you. It just seems like you're giving up chips that those hacks would have given you if they didn't start having you out chipped 2-1. And those chips may have been the difference between those bad beats breaking you vs taking you down to an average stack.

Maybe, but I don't think so in this case. I was at a little over 100,000 (in first) with like 20 players left. Someone with like 30,000 went all-in with JJ but I happened to have QQ and called. JJ caught and now I'm down to 70,000 and am still in the top 5. Couple hands later 60,000 chipper reraises me all-in when I have AK suited. I had a read on him that he would not have all-inned me with KK or AA so I called and my AK was looking pretty purty against his AQ suited. Flop came A7Q. Ok I'm now down to 10,000 and had to claw my way to get 7th. But I don't see how my re-buying or adding on would have made a difference. It seems like you guys think re-buying or adding-on automatically doubles your chips, but I don't get that logic. I don't see how my 100,000 would have been 200,000 due to a rebuy or add-on. Maybe it would have been like 120,000 but after the two beats I still would have been down to like 30,000 and had to fight my way back.

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

rebuying and adding on will not change the cards you get. Just because you rebuy and addon, doesnt mean your playing like manaic. When I play rebuys, I average between 3-5 buyins. Generally 3 gets me there, the immediate rebuy to start with, and an addon after the first hour. Every other good tournament player on this forum will tell you the same, or something simular. Also, there is a difference between playing looser and playing loose.

Once again - I agree. Obviously there are players out there who are using the rebuy and add-on like they should - as a chip advantage. But THERE ARE foolios out there who do play like maniacs (especially very early) because they will just re-buy again (whether you have re-bought or not any good player can take advantage of these players). My whole point is this. Because the only real money is at the final table if you have re-bought or added on then you are adding the pressure of actually having to make the final table when you do so. If you just buy in for the original tourney fee making the money is actually worthwhile, and making it further is just delicious. In general I feel like I get knocked out in the first hour about 40% of the time. Make past the first hour but not to the money maybe 30%. Make it to the money but nothing huge, 25%. And make something really really worthwhile about 5%. But for everytime I just make the money I can play 3 more tourneys (and for those rare times when I do really well, that pays for like 30 tourneys), and since I am making the money about 1 out of every three times it all works out.

P.s. Woo Hoo - I am now up to one pair, instead of just high card J. Yes!!!

If you are going to play tight then you must rebuy immediatelly. Your plan is play tight and double up off a maniac, and chips you dont get earlier (like not getting the rebuy) means you miss out on twice that later. For example, if you get AA first hand you could double to 3k or rebuy and then double up to 6k. Get AA an hour later and double again, now the rebuy is the diference between 6k and 12k.

Yeah, I mean we could put up hypothetical chip counts up here all day, but that would be useless. Basically you're looking to play a 30/3 freeze out but have the prize structure of a 100 freeze, which is a fun concept but you must see that you are costing yourself chips with this strat, there is no way around it. If you're OK with taking a lower chance to win for lower risk, that's cool.

Ok - honestly I do get what you guys are saying. But no, I do not play like a retard. I play my position, my cards, and my reads. I am more than willing to bluff with my 38 suited when the time is right. I still say it is a two hand theory. I cannot dispute and agree with all the math.

Maybe instead of a two hand theory I should say it is a 6-12,000 chip theory. Rebuy once and the 3,000 becomes 6,000 with a double up and the 6,000 becomes 12,000 with another one, whereas no rebuy = 1,500 up to 6,000 plus the added value of the add-on. No doubt 6,000-12,000 chips makes a difference. No doubt I have to overcome that difference. My theory is I am good enough to overcome that difference.

I guess what it comes down to is I think rebuying and adding on would bring me to the money about 10% more of the time but I am not so sure how much it would increase the number of times I made it to the final table. If it increased it by 5% then math says rebuy and add-on. But my gut says it wouldn't do that. So my question is how much of an increase in final table sittings should I truly expect by rebuying and adding on?

Recently I was on a bubble of the final table as an average stack. I bluffed at a pot, someone pushed, I had to fold, thus costing me 1/3 of my chips. A few hands later, I double up off a guy that barely had me covered when I had KK v QQ. A few hands later, my JJ runs into the same guy's AA, and I busted (he had doubled between the two hands). If I hadn't wasted those chips on that hand, I could have busted him when I had KK and would have made it to the final table. But as it turned out, he had enough to bust me instead of him already being out of the tournament. Every chip counts.

Ok how can I say I agree that every chip counts when I have been advocating not buying in for every possible chip? Well, it's difficult but I agree, every chip counts.

Still haven't answered my question tho - what do you think the increase is in making the final table by rebuying and adding on?

How much are those two hands/6-12,000 chips REALLY WORTH?

I don't think that is something that can be quantified. it doesn't hurt your chances, thats for sure. if you can't afford it, play the $10 rebuy.

If it can't be quantified, you can't convince me it's worth it.

A rebuy and addon at $60 needs to increase your chances of getting into the top 7 by about 7%. 7% X $850 (prize for 7th)= $59.5. If the rebuy and add-on aren't getting me into the top 7 somewhere around 7% of the time (I know you need to decrease the percentage a bit because the prize money goes up for 1st to 6th place, but this is a decent estimate) then it ain't worth it.

Of course I played another $30 rebuy add-on tonight to try and prove my theory was a success and... maybe I shoulda added on. Lol. Came in 89th out of 615. Top 70 paid. Ppppfffttt. Absolutely no hands, only chips came from position bets. Out of 127 hands I only won 10% of the time, but my showdown percentage was 100% (except for the last hand of course). Of those 127 hands I had big slick once, and JJ once. That's it (no other pair higher than 33, no kicker with an A higher than a 9, no suited connectors, nuttin) - my big slick tied all-in against AT, my JJ took the blinds and one call with a raise. I lost very short stacked going all-in with A8 suited against a guy who failed to isolate me with 88 (he was lucky no one else called). So maybe, just maybe that add-on or rebuy woulda put me in the money. But then again, if I had caught that last hand, or any other hand for that matter, I woulda been in the money and made at least $76. So I'm still not sure what the answer is.

The answer is to take chips when you can get them. So whichever way you think is hte best way to pick up chips, you do that.

Hows this.
You say you are a good player, that can win your pots, so you don tneed to add on in order to get more chips. Ifyou rebuy and addon during hte rebuy and addon period. You put more chips into play. more chips into play equate to more chips for you to win later on. Since you are a good player. Therefore, at a table of feebs, you take ur chances at doubling up knowing that A) you double up or B) you lose your chips, you rebuy, and win those chips that you lost back, thereby rebuilding ur stack even more. So now after thinking about that, whats better for a good player? More chips on the table for you to win, or not?

Still not convinced the answer is to re-buy and add-on - but I do understand the argument. I agree it's possible I woulda made the money last night if i had done so. But it's also possible I wouldn't have. By the time I made my all-in with 9,000 chips the average stack was somewhere around 30,000. Let's say adding on and rebuying would have given me 12,000 more chips (and this is being generous). Well I still woulda bet 3x BB with my A8 suited (it was one of the best hands I had had all night and even though I was out of position my cards were so bad last night and the opportunities so few that people probably thought I had somewhere around AQ or better), I still woulda been called by 88. I mighta made a stab to win the pot on the flop when a Q came out, but the guy who called was not much of a folder with mid-pair, so depending on my play, I woulda either been down to 12,000 chips and had one last opportunity to double up or I woulda been out at the same spot. So I very easily could have been out in the same spot but instead of down $30 I woulda been down $90.

When you stop playing cards and start playing poker, you will probably notice a bigger difference. More chips more leverage.

LOL - you guys are cracking me up. Every response has been a sly crack at how much of an amateur I am. I concede I am an amateur. But show me what I've done wrong. No one has shown me proof of an increased percentage in final tables by rebuying and adding on. I don't just play my cards, I do understand the concept of leverage ... but that doesn't mean I think the leverage of 1500 chips is worth a rebuy and I don't think the leverage of 2,000 (it might be 2,500) chips after an hour of play when the blinds are high enough that you can get that amount easily in one hand is worth it either.

I WAS pissed when I got knocked out in 89th yesterday. Looking at my hand history however, I am NOW really excited about how I played last night. Quite possibly my best 3 hour stretch of online playing yet. Not once did I succumb to stupidity (as I have done in the past) and say screw it, I'm all-in UTG +2 with an A3 suited. Everytime I had the opportunity to steal blinds I did (and that's what kept me alive the last hour). When I had mediocre hands (say JQ or JK os) in position (which happened twice) I always had at least one raise and two players in front of me and correctly made a read and folded to KK and AK respectively. My one bluff that failed I raised pre-flop and got the foolio big stack to call, made another crack at it on the flop, he called, I was then able to let my hand go (whereas previously I woulda all-inned with my A hi and been out when foolio called with mid pair). With the cards that I had, the table I was at, and the opportunities that presented themselves, I played about as good as I could have hoped. I did make one error which I'll learn from - I folded 59 suited from small blind right when the 2nd hour began with 4 limpers and BB behind me. I definitely should have at least called with those pot odds 100 into a 1000 pot (a raise to steal wouldn't have been a horrible play). But all in all I played well, and am focusing on that rather than why couldn't my A have hit that last hand?

I don't mind getting ragged on for stupid plays. And I've learned a trick or two about playing some hands. I don't even mind the disagreement about whether or not the rebuy and addon is essential if you are going to enter those tournaments. I see your point and it makes sense. I do mind totally conclusory holier than thou comments. What makes you say I was just playing my cards?

sorry if you were offended. try playing the $10 RA and rebuy at the start and adding on. it will cost the same and you can at least feel it out.

LOL - no offense taken. I msut really seem like a wanker now. I just wanted to know where this quote came from.

Originally Posted by ihategnomes

When you stop playing cards and start playing poker, you will probably notice a bigger difference. More chips more leverage.

Looking at my hand history, there actually were times where I coulda been more agressive, but I played my gut and my gut was right (each hand that I coulda made a move e.g. 9T suited, A3 suited, etc., woulda been smoked). I wasn't waiting for AA, KK, AK - but I also wasn't going to be stupid with 4K suited.

It has nothing to do with the amount of money - like I said I'll play a $100 freeze out no problem. I still have not been told anything except "leverage" and "start playing poker" as why I MUST rebuy and add-on. Proof is what I am looking for, and I'm not sure anyone has played enough both ways to offer me any. As for now - I will be the lone advocate for not rebuying and adding on and I will continue to post my results. I don't play enough to make it a substantial data bank, but it's a start.

Bump - cuz Sprayed made me realize being a doof is humorous.

I like how it started out as just a simple inquiry for advice and then blossomed into you against all FTR members on how to play a rebuy. Did anyone truly answer you on haw to play those T's?

I have to hand it to you though, you do stand your ground when you believe in something.

The best answer woulda been to make sure you are not at 1100 chips - I shoulda been at 2600. And yes, I'd push.

And yes, I still kick myself at the thousands of dollars I am sure I missed by failing to rebuy and add-on when I actually did make it deep in some of these tourneys without rebuying.

It's totally quantifiable... but somewhat HARD to quantify.
You are getting even money for the chips you add-on. In ICM model, this is +0 EV.

However, ICM is just a model... and as we say in the theoretical sciences... there are only two kinds of models: Bad ones and useless ones. ICM is bad, but not useless. It assumes all players are equal in skill.

When I figured this out, it occurred that skill is not a flat "edge", generally, it's a function of how you play against certain people with certain stack sizes. For rebuying/adding on - it becomes +EV *IF* your edge INCREASES with increasing stack leverage. Not your probably of winning, or monieing, or FTing - everyones' chance of that increases with increasing chips - the question is - does your probability increase faster (you should add-on), slower (your edge is HIGHER with a short stack - and should NEVER add-on) or same (doesn't matter except for hourly return considerations).

So, Charizard is totally correct about not adding-on AS LONG AS HIS *EDGE* DOES NOT INCREASE (or lack of edge does not decrease if he is a below average player..<grin>) with the addition chips.

Of course that's true zenbitz, but I think it's pretty clear that if you're a winning player your edge will increase the more chips you have. Being a winning player basically means you have the ability to identify gambles that are +EV and take them. If you have twice as many chips, your edge in this situations will be about twice as large.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Of course that's true zenbitz, but I think it's pretty clear that if you're a winning player your edge will increase the more chips you have. Being a winning player basically means you have the ability to identify gambles that are +EV and take them. If you have twice as many chips, your edge in this situations will be about twice as large.

Only if you assume that the average player is a loser. This is almost certainly true during the rebuy hour... but what about near ITM with only 15% of the field remaining? Also, different winning players might have different strengths. Some people suck post flop - but might get brilliant reads pre-flop. This type of player is going to get a smaller relative edge from more chips, because he's best playing push/fold anyway.

The bottom line is that adding on or not is going to be very close to EV neutral. Kind of like " should I play 2 tournies or just one?" It might even be influenced by how well you are playing THAT PARTICULAR DAY.

Sometimes seeing how much of a retard I was makes me feel better about where I am at now...

It's funny seeing gabe and VQC in this forum and providing advice for tourneys.

LOL

easy push here with your stack size. if you were around 1600+ in chips i can see a standard 3-4 BB raise, but in this case just get your chips in.

Originally Posted by dstir2

easy push here with your stack size. if you were around 1600+ in chips i can see a standard 3-4 BB raise, but in this case just get your chips in.

Online MTT play was different two years ago...

And even now I think you can make an argument for any of the plays mentioned (limp-reraise/standard raise/shove), depending in part on how your table plays.

lol - I entered madness tonight on stars and then got tired so tried to unregister but it was too late.

So I played it as a freezeout and didn't rebuy or add-on.

I finished 60 somethingth. But I'm not sure how much adding on would have mattered.

Someday I will write a post about what we can learn from the fact that I often play really well in tournies I realize I should not have gotten in.