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TPTK and the small hand small pot syndrome

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  1. #1

    Default TPTK and the small hand small pot syndrome

    This is a position I find myself in time and time again in a tourney and it is the TPTK hand vs something that is stronger or something that hits stronger on the turn.

    I will often raise the top pair on the flop only to get called.
    Now, I have a dilemma because I can no longer play small hand small pot, I might check behind on the turn in position but sometimes have to bet but by raising the flop I am bloating the pot.
    If I just call the flop then I am usually allowing any hand to draw out and maybe higher cards to hit and beat me in this example, any J,Q,K.

    I like to play fast at the beginning of a tourney in an aggressive accumulating mode so this often means that players call me light. This only gives me difficult decisions in these exact type of hands.
    I think in this example, I should fold the turn but more importantly, how do I keep the pot small when the stack sizes are still relatively big.


    MP2: 17,579 (43.9 bb)
    MP3: 14,223 (35.6 bb)
    Hero (CO): 18,063 (45.2 bb)
    BTN: 11,901 (29.8 bb)
    SB: 5,344 (13.4 bb)
    BB: 22,125 (55.3 bb)
    UTG+1: 9,780 (24.5 bb)
    UTG+2: 14,997 (37.5 bb)
    MP1: 34,234 (85.6 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with T A
    3 folds, MP2 raises to 800, MP3 folds, Hero calls 800, 3 folds

    Flop: (2,560) T 6 9(2 players)
    MP2 bets 1,200, Hero raises to 3,600, MP2 calls 2,400

    Turn: (9,760) 6(2 players)
    MP2 checks, Hero bets 6,000, MP2 raises to 13,139 and is all-in
  2. #2
    Raising flop just forces him to fold hands we beat, with the exception of flush draws, which on this flop will often have straight draws and live overcards to add to their equity. Our hand is absolutely crushed by his flop continuing range. Raising the flop seems bad, and betting turn for nearly half remaining effective stack after he calls the flop raise seems truly awful. I'd just call flop and reassess turn, asking myself if he keeps betting overcards often enough for me to continue calling. Raising tptk on flop usually results in taking down the pot right there (winning a small pot) or getting into a bloated pot with a vulnerable hand (losing a big pot). If you know he carries on with any pair, then it's different.

    You tell us a little about yourself, but what do you know about this villain? Why are you raising the flop? Do you raise this flop against everybody as standard? Because if so, that's a huge mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Raising flop just forces him to fold hands we beat, with the exception of flush draws, which on this flop will often have straight draws and live overcards to add to their equity. Our hand is absolutely crushed by his flop continuing range. Raising the flop seems bad, and betting turn for nearly half remaining effective stack after he calls the flop raise seems truly awful. I'd just call flop and reassess turn, asking myself if he keeps betting overcards often enough for me to continue calling. Raising tptk on flop usually results in taking down the pot right there (winning a small pot) or getting into a bloated pot with a vulnerable hand (losing a big pot). If you know he carries on with any pair, then it's different.

    You tell us a little about yourself, but what do you know about this villain? Why are you raising the flop? Do you raise this flop against everybody as standard? Because if so, that's a huge mistake.
    Villain is fairly standard about 20/10 not overly aggressive.
    I would say that yes I raise TPTK as standard for many years now because the original tourney books I read were HOG and that was the standàrd value play.
    I would then normally check the turn for pot control - didn't here as I put villain on a draw.
    This is usually the only situation that I get into trouble : TPTK bloated pots but I win a lot of smaller pots bu raising the flop
  4. #4
    TPTK and the small hand small pot syndrome


    I will often raise the top pair on the flop only to get called.
    hopefully you understand the problem.

    the answer is to stop worrying about people drawing out on you. If you play correctly, it will happen, and fairly often.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy View Post



    hopefully you understand the problem.

    the answer is to stop worrying about people drawing out on you. If you play correctly, it will happen, and fairly often.
    What about the raising for value argument/protecting?
    If it was AK on a K flop or AQ on a Q flop, are you suggesting playing it the same way? Or is it only keeping the pot small when stacks are deep?
    For example, later in a tournament, you could play this more aggressively?
  6. #6
    What about ... protecting?
    Doc covered this pretty clearly, I think.

    the answer is to stop worrying about people drawing out on you. If you play correctly, it will happen, and fairly often.


    This is as succinctly/elegantly put as I've ever heard any piece of poker advice, and it is dead on.

    If you raise this flop with this hand you are basically getting action from hands that beat you or are flipping with you. It doesn't matter if he has QQ or QJcc, you're basically in bad shape vs. his continuing range and he's going to shove all of it. If you want to play a small pot with AT on Txx then don't make it a big pot.

    "Protecting" is basically B.S.; I think it was IowaSkinsFan who said here once: It doesn't matter if he bets it or if you bet it. If he's betting a draw, he's paying a fair price for it; if he's betting air or worse value hands, we profit. When we raise this flop we let him play pretty much perfectly.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Doc covered this pretty clearly, I think.

    the answer is to stop worrying about people drawing out on you. If you play correctly, it will happen, and fairly often.


    This is as succinctly/elegantly put as I've ever heard any piece of poker advice, and it is dead on.

    If you raise this flop with this hand you are basically getting action from hands that beat you or are flipping with you. It doesn't matter if he has QQ or QJcc, you're basically in bad shape vs. his continuing range and he's going to shove all of it. If you want to play a small pot with AT on Txx then don't make it a big pot.

    "Protecting" is basically B.S.; I think it was IowaSkinsFan who said here once: It doesn't matter if he bets it or if you bet it. If he's betting a draw, he's paying a fair price for it; if he's betting air or worse value hands, we profit. When we raise this flop we let him play pretty much perfectly.
    So, under what circumstances would you ever raise TPTK?
    Passive opponents who call anything?
    Against aggro opponents who could have weaker hands?
    I know it's situational...

    In the above hand, what would be better?
    Maybe RR preflop but as played just call call call?
    Villain is not overly aggressive but just average so call call and if he bets the river again then fold?
  8. #8
    I hear you Bentley. Playing that passive line never occurred to me. I always "protect my TPTK" too like most people I think.

    But I've noticed a lot of the veteran commenters here seem quite wise.

    Playing it c/c or c/f leaves one in the dark a bit. Do we fold to two barrels on that board if we have no reads?
  9. #9
    everyone's posts make sense to me ! but i'am not sure why you are so aggressive with this hand ? (i mean we all do it time to time i know) maybe if you find yourself playing too fast you should count to ten then act ,it will also help you think more about your opponents range of hands and why they called your check raise on the flop ? i just think you could wait for a better hand to push that hard ! what do you guys think ? this opponent isn't going to fold any street calling your flop c/r !
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Agent Zero View Post
    I hear you Bentley. Playing that passive line never occurred to me. I always "protect my TPTK" too like most people I think.

    But I've noticed a lot of the veteran commenters here seem quite wise.

    Playing it c/c or c/f leaves one in the dark a bit. Do we fold to two barrels on that board if we have no reads?
    I thought that this was the main point of raising TPTK.
    However, you can see that it builds a big pot.
    The issue is that when you just call the raise, you turn it into more of a limit poker type of play.
  11. #11
    Arrgh, what's with all this "protecting your hand" stuff lately. Is everyone all playing LHE suddenly?
  12. #12
    chardrian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bentley View Post
    but more importantly, how do I keep the pot small when the stack sizes are still relatively big.

    The ldo answer is don't raise flop.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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