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Tournament structure question.

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  1. #1

    Default Tournament structure question.

    So, I used to play tournaments online, small entry fees, and I did fairly well actually making some money over time, usually landing in the top 3 if I could make it to the final table. Since US players haven't been able to play at the good poker sites for a while now, I recently started playing at the closest casino. I'm kind of frustrated because I've played probably close to 20 games there and only made the final table once and landed in 7th. I figured a lot of it is getting used to live play so that's fine but as I've become more comfortable here, I'm starting to wonder if the structure for the game at this particular casino is more of a luck game and not worth the time or tournament buy in.

    Now maybe I just have to tweak myself some more but the last game I played, I was fairly confident in every move I made. I feel the blinds advance too quickly for any kind of real play.

    Here's the tournament structure.

    Buy in: 40+10 entry fee
    Usually 30-40 entrants depending on the night.
    Starting Chips: 5000 (you can add on 1000 for an extra 5 dollars at the table which everyone always does so I do too)
    Top 4 places paid (first usually gets close to 600 dollars with 40 players)
    20 minute blinds
    Blind Structure:
    25-50
    50-100
    100-200
    200-400
    300-600
    400-800
    1000-2000
    2000-4000 (never seen it get higher than this...
    No antes.

    So... is this a game you can beat even if you were a great player and I just need to work out my play better or am I just throwing money away in a game that short stacks you far to quickly unless you hit a massive pot early in the game?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Scarecrow; 10-20-2014 at 08:15 PM.
  2. #2
    I think you have a pretty small sample size to work with, but of course how you feel about the structure is important, as that will ultimately affect decisions you make.

    Twenty-five percent rake (or 22.2% if you count the add-on) is harsh, but unfortunately a reality in many small buy-in live events. Personally, I believe the rake percentage in this particular tourney has more to do with long-term expectation than the blind structure for a winning player, but there are other members here with a lot more experience in live events who can probably chime-in with a more qualified opinion.

    A solid live small-stakes tourney grinder who has 50% long-term ROI expectation would average enough to cover a decent diner meal per tourney in these games, but that would require either (A) a good portion of the players donating their chips early due to loose play, or (B) a player with very strong multi-way pot & heads-up abilities. Scenario "A" would be best.

    Are there any events at your local casino with a slightly higher buy-in within your bankroll that have lower rake? Say, an $85+15 with $10 add-on? Bankroll permitting, I would feel more comfortable playing those in your position.
  3. #3
    I suspect the problem is that you're playing less hands per blind structure due simply to the fact that someone has to phsyically shuffle and deal. Online it happens instantly, saving lots of time. There's also no counting of chips and that sort of stuff. Online, we can get through so many more hands per blind level that I suspect a 20-minute blind structure online is going to show a similar number of hands dealt per blind level as a 45-minute blind structure live. This is simply a case of adjusting. One can afford to be tighter in a 20-min level game online than the same format live. I'd adjust to a live format by widening my ranges and playing more aggressively. Not crazy wide, not crazy aggressive, but wider and more aggressive than I would be if I were online. I'd be playing similar to how I'd play the sunday storm... that's a ten minute blind game and it kind of feels like it's halfway between a turbo and a regular game.

    What live can offer that online cannot is being able to physically read your opponents. That is where my study would be focussed if I were going to move into a live format. If my edge isn't coming from playing a tighter range, then I need to find another edge.

    Study body language. Try to learn the difference between strong and fake strong, or weak and fake weak. Pay attention to what people are doing when you're not in a hand. The big stack who likes to play a lot of hands and talks a lot... does he stop talking sometimes when he's in a big pot? Well that might be a clue. The dude who is drinking... is he getting drunk? Is he pretending to get drunk? That's why I'd like to get into live games. I think I'd be ok at this aspect with some serious study.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 10-21-2014 at 09:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    25% to the house sounds harsh, if your dealing yourselves its annoying and a gut buster before u start. pays 4 does not give up a lot of hope just to get to the cash. your busting out with hands u would not normaly play. find another venue
  5. #5
    Yeah the only other game this offers is a knockout tourney... 40+10+10+5 add on... The extra 10 is for your bounty, knock someone out get 10 bucks.

    I guess I can limit the amount of times I go and find another casino instead. I may try this one a couple times and watch people more and try to play with a wider range cause it's so close to my house.

    I like the experience of playing live and learning to count chips and such but... Maybe somewhere else.

    Anyway thanks for the advice...
  6. #6
    over 20% of rake is very tough to beat, in addition according to the structure you describe the tournament is over in 8 levels, assuming a live hand is around 3 minutes on average you are playing about 50 hands the entire tournament, most of which in push fold mode, so the 'luck factor' here is huge, unless the players are really terrible I doubt anyone other then the house can win long term


  7. #7
    It is possible that a) The players are considerably better in these casino games than the tourneys you were playing online (Super fishy at low buyins, not sure what buyins you were at). b) the 20min blind structure is causing you to lose focus vs the 5 or 10min typical structure online for lower buyins (turbo, non-turbo). There are many other factors (online vs live, etc..) but those are the first two that come to mind. But yea, that rake is killer. Tough to be a winning player grinding those out. I agree that looking for a better game (lower rake) is going to be the way to go.
    Last edited by Weissr; 10-30-2014 at 02:39 PM.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Weissr View Post
    It is possible that a) The players are considerably better in these casino games than the tourneys you were playing online (Super fishy at low buyins, not sure what buyins you were at). b) the 20min blind structure is causing you to lose focus vs the 5 or 10min typical structure online for lower buyins (turbo, non-turbo). There are many other factors (online vs live, etc..) but those are the first two that come to mind. But yea, that rake is killer. Tough to be a winning player grinding those out. I agree that looking for a better game (lower rake) is going to be the way to go.
    So you think the blind set up itself is alright? You may be right about a and b and just need more practice within this setting. I think I'm generally used to more hands being played per round and am playing too tight of a range but I could loosen that up more and I've already looked at doing that. I know there are a handful of players I've noticed who are probably a lot better but then there are plenty that are notably a lot worse too... To me it just seemed like the blinds just start yapping at my heels and then it's just push and shove and hope ya double up. But if you think the blind structure is decent, it may very well be my play that needs tweaking some. It took me many games online before I really got the hang of it and was able to keep my bank roll going up pretty consistently.
  9. #9
    25% for the house, and is additional $5 going for the staff as well making it 37,5%? If so, I wouldn't even try to play these for profit. You need to get ridiculous ROI to even make 10$/h profit, like around 100% or so.

    Most low-stakes tournaments aren't beatable for any hourly wage due to rake and small fields.

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