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Top pair dry board facing extreme aggression

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  1. #1

    Default Top pair dry board facing extreme aggression

    No reads on opponent here, tournament just started a few minutes ago.

    Should i just ship it and hope to get it in against Ax ?

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $3.00+$0.30 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    MP2 (t3520)
    CO (t2980)
    Button (t2990)
    SB (t2790)
    BB (t2290)
    UTG (t3390)
    Hero (UTG+1) (t3000)
    MP1 (t2360)

    Hero's M: 100.00

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q, A
    UTG calls t20, Hero raises to t80, 2 folds, MP2 calls t80, CO calls t80, 2 folds, BB calls t60, UTG calls t60

    Flop: (t410) 3, 8, A (5 players)
    BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets t250, 1 fold, CO raises to t660, 2 folds, Hero calls t410

    Turn: (t1730) 10 (2 players)
    Hero checks, CO bets t2240 (All-In), Hero folds

    Total pot: t1730
  2. #2
    i hate these spots. i think folding is ok... and i think shipping it is ok.

    i personally would raise more pre during the first 2 levels of micro tourneys. u just don't wanna play against half the table with AQ... and raising more usually weeds out more of the "i have something suited i want to see a flop" players.
    guys he's just looking to complain about taking coolers/beats

    he'll continue to be the type of poker player we all love, the one that isn't any good but thinks he is, and slowly donates to the regulars.
  3. #3
    chardrian's Avatar
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    fold or push the flop. I don't see what your call accomplishes.

    The only hand I can see you beating is AJ or Ax from a terribad player.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  4. #4
    Well, worse As may fold to a 3 bet and bluffs certainly will so I think calling the flop raise accomplishes a lot. What does shoving get us? If he's calling a flop shove with a worse A the money is going in sometime.

    this is a tough spot, you really should be beat but I guess in a 3 MTT anything is possible.

    If you don't want to play for stacks, you can check the flop.
  5. #5
    chardrian's Avatar
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    Yeah - if you're going to go with the hand, calling is fine. But if you're folding it doesn't make sense.

    I guess what I meant to say was you need to make up your mind on that flop - to me this call looks like he is going to reevaluate on the turn and I just don't like that.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
    come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com
  6. #6
    yep, I'm down with that
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CorbinDallas
    and raising more usually weeds out more of the "i have something suited i want to see a flop" players.
    Aren't these exactly the ones you want in the pot when you hit TPTK? Certainly they are the ones that we want to have calling down to the river without odds. I can understand wanting to have less than half the table in the hand (you don't want someone to hit a random rag-rag 2-pair), but I don't think it makes sense to try to chase everyone away. It's really hard to cbet early in these tournaments, and with a lot of hands not hitting well, I don't like throwing out a lot of my chips by making bigger raises.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DoanDiggy
    Quote Originally Posted by CorbinDallas
    and raising more usually weeds out more of the "i have something suited i want to see a flop" players.
    Aren't these exactly the ones you want in the pot when you hit TPTK? Certainly they are the ones that we want to have calling down to the river without odds. I can understand wanting to have less than half the table in the hand (you don't want someone to hit a random rag-rag 2-pair), but I don't think it makes sense to try to chase everyone away. It's really hard to cbet early in these tournaments, and with a lot of hands not hitting well, I don't like throwing out a lot of my chips by making bigger raises.
    yeah but not 5 of them.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by chardrian
    Yeah - if you're going to go with the hand, calling is fine. But if you're folding it doesn't make sense.
    I disagee. We are 100BB deep. We can call the raise on the flop and play poker on the turn. Your action on the turn can typically be decided based on turn betting sizes, just like you would do in a cash game.
    Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
    <Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
    <Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
  10. #10
    chardrian's Avatar
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    Actually we're 150 BBs deep. And I don't play cash that much. But it still seems silly to call and re-eval the turn to me.

    Once hero calls the flop raise the pot has just over 1700 and the two remaining players have just over 2200. Seems to me whether it's cash or tourney we've committed ourselves at that point - I mean does our decision really change dependent on whether our opp bets 900 or just shoves the turn? Even if villain checks behind or bets like 600 again I'd be concerned he is inducing a bluff from us.

    I think the difference between a tourney and cash is that you might be willing to play a turn here in cash because you can always reload. You can call the 400 and just buy back to your starting stack if you fold the turn. ut you can't do that in tourneys and you aren't going to be playing enough hands with this villain to make it worth calling for info. I think your decision needs to be made once he raises you on this flop - and this hand is another example of just how shallow stacks are in tourneys because even 150 BBs deep doesn't give you that much wiggle room.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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  11. #11
    i agree with char.

    if u were in position and getting CR'd then calling and seeing what he does on the turn has more validity. but OOP calling sucks unless your plan is to shove the turn or call any bet. cuz he's gonna bet when you check the turn. which gives you no more info since he's just following through with his raise on the flop. what more do you know really? he really likes his AJ on the flop and still likes it on the turn. or he likes his set on the flop and still on the turn. you still don't know just cuz you called the flop raise and checked the turn.
  12. #12
    How about calling the flop and then leading the turn?
    Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
    <Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
    <Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
  13. #13
    IMO your decision to go with the hand or not... should be made on the flop.
    guys he's just looking to complain about taking coolers/beats

    he'll continue to be the type of poker player we all love, the one that isn't any good but thinks he is, and slowly donates to the regulars.
  14. #14
    Your probably right. However, if the beginnings of MTT's play similar to cash games, then making a decision on the flop for the rest of the hand would be a leak.

    However in this spot, with 5 people taking the flop and we have to make a decision without know what a villians range could be, you should fold.
    Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
    <Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
    <Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
  15. #15
    another thing you could do... is bet more on the flop. leading 250 into 410 with 5 people in doesn't look very strong IMO. u could bet 400, which looks very strong, and then his raise would be larger and then you would be forced to make a decision cuz calling another 650ish (assuming he raises proportionately again) is then out of the question. u'd either give it up right there or go with it. absent of a read that this guy is a maniac, i think you could confidently fold if you made a strong bet into 5 people.

    in a $3 i'd probably look up his stats. based on that info i'd make my decision that he has Ax or a set. cuz a $3 MTT donk is getting AJ all in here 100% of the time... and worse A's a lot of the time too. the better the player... the less chance he has Ax here.
    guys he's just looking to complain about taking coolers/beats

    he'll continue to be the type of poker player we all love, the one that isn't any good but thinks he is, and slowly donates to the regulars.
  16. #16
    I like betting smaller on the flop. like 175, the pot is artificially inflated b/c of all the callers, the board is very dry, and you have THREE (gasp tourney/sng players) streets to get value.

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