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Tips from the pro's!

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  1. #1
    johnny_fish's Avatar
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    Default Tips from the pro's!

    I get these emails ('Full Tilt Poker Tips from the Pros') and the advice seems bad to me usually.. How about this?:

    While playing the final table of the $1,500 Pot-Limit Hold 'em event, I found myself in a difficult spot when we were down to four-handed play. I was in the big blind and Rizen, a tough, respected online tournament pro, was in the small blind. It was folded to Rizen who announced that he would raise the pot. With blinds of 15K/30K, his raise made it 90K to me.

    At the time, I had about 400K in chips; Rizen had 750k and the other two players had about 250K each.

    I looked at my cards and found As-8s, a pretty solid holding in short-handed play. I decided to raise the size of the pot. My total bet was 180. Rizen immediately re-raised, forcing me all-in.

    The pot contained 580,000 (400,000 from Rizen, 180,000 from me) and I had 220,000 remaining. I was getting nearly 3 to 1 on my money, so this looked like an automatic call. I needed to win the pot only about 27 percent of the time to justify a call.

    Against a big pocket pair (other than aces), my A-8 suited would win about 32 percent of the time. Against a bigger ace (A-K, A-Q, etc), my A-8 suited would win about 30 percent of the time. There was also a non-zero (though small) chance I was up against a small pocket pair and would win about 50 percent of the time.

    So this was almost a zero-equity chip decision. That is, folding and calling would have pretty much same result over the long term. To find the correct action, I had to look beyond pot odds and consider (a) how this hand would affect my cash equity for the tournament (i.e., which action would maximize my expected cash payout) and (b) how this hand would affect my chances of winning the tournament.

    There were two factors I looked at when considering my cash equity:


    1 - Each chip in a short stack is more valuable in terms of cash-equity than each chip in a large stack. By calling in this situation I would have been risking chips of great value to pick up chips of lesser value.

    2 - Folding removes any chance of busting. By folding, I would give my opponents a chance to bust on subsequent hands, which would move me up to a bigger payday.

    After looking at these factors, it seemed that folding was the clear choice. But still, I had to think about how folding would effect my ability to win the bracelet - which was my primary concern. Would I be putting myself out of the running by giving up on so many chips? Not really.

    When there are more than two players remaining, each additional chip you accumulate has a lesser impact on your ability to win the tournament. So when the chip-equity decision is a wash, you are better off folding than you are trying to accumulate more chips.

    If you ever find yourself in a similar situation, you should also keep in mind that there's a big difference between moving all-in and calling all-in. When you move in, you can win the pot by forcing a fold. When you call, this obviously isn't possible.

    I decided to fold and wait for a better spot, and I'm very glad that I did.
  2. #2
    Yeah, I just got this too - raise/fold seemed like the worst possible line to me. fold OK, raise/call AI seemed OK, even call seemed OK.

    Plus he really wants the bracelet (so he says)- and he's just given Rizen a massive chip lead. To me it feels like a $EV decision, but he doesn't even mention pay outs. You can see why he needs the money playing this way.
  3. #3
    ---the advice seems bad to me usually---
    how can you say these guys advice is bad? they are top pros. i see you've won 23k which is good but most of these guys have won millions. here's an article i read recently about thinking your better than the pros:
    http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/c...maker1106.html


    now on to what i think about the hand:
    i'm really surprised he folded. i think i definitely would have called because the blinds are so big compared to the stack sizes and you don't have the luxury of being able to wait for the best opportunity to move allin. now rafe has said this though - i'd have to reconsider my strategy. i do lose a lot by making calls when someone reraises a steal attempt of mine allin in sngs.
    http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
    18 years old. short-handed $600NL.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by drmcboy
    Yeah, I just got this too - raise/fold seemed like the worst possible line to me. fold OK, raise/call AI seemed OK, even call seemed OK.

    Plus he really wants the bracelet (so he says)- and he's just given Rizen a massive chip lead. To me it feels like a $EV decision, but he doesn't even mention pay outs. You can see why he needs the money playing this way.
    I don't like the small reraise either. move allin. but he's a pro and i'm not.

    he says he wants the bracelet - that doesn't mean he should call. finishing 4th means he definitely won't get the bracelet
    http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
    18 years old. short-handed $600NL.
  5. #5
    the small reraise either
    it's pot limit.

    finishing 4th means he definitely won't get the bracelet
    I didn't think of that.

    Given that you think pros are 100 % correct all the time, will your head explode if I quote you two pros that disagree? We are here to discuss poker, not spout goofy adivce from pros like it is gospel.
  6. #6
    He should have been out of the tourney by that time anyway but he hit that 2 outer on the river when he open limped AA from the button and Can Kim Hua raised w/ 72 from the BB Furst smooth calls, flop comes 77x, money goes in, river A.

    I don't think he could have played that hand any worse.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by pokerroomace
    how can you say these guys advice is bad? they are top pros.
    No, they're not. Becoming famous, and getting a contract with Full Tilt, just because you got lucky in a tournament or two does not make you a "top pro" by any stretch of the imagination. Did you know that the best online poker players usually salivate when a TV tournament pro sits down at the table (with a few exceptions like Ivey, Antonius, and a couple of others)?

    Like someone else said this hand couldn't have been played any worse.
  8. #8
    nutsinho's Avatar
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  9. #9
    Everything is white or black. There are no other colors.
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg
    Everything is white or black. There are no other colors.
    lol. i wasn't saying he was right or wrong. i agree there are other colours.

    this is my exact point, actually. i'm sure what he says has some value.

    he did play the AA hand badly but would you never limp with AA? i raise it 99% of the time, but when you're playing at a live final table you do have to mix it up a bit. i doubt he could have folded the AA to a 77X flop. his opponent could just be making a move or have the X. also, the Ms were quite low.

    even harrington says you should raise AA most of the time and then limp the rest of the time. that might not apply here, but it's not the worst play in the world.
    it wasn't 10 handed and 6 players had limped in and he was on the BB and he decided to check his AA. it wasn't that bad.

    also, i'm not saying i agree with him. that's why i stated my opinion on the matter. i'm definitely not going to say that he is an idiot though and that he's wrong. he IS a much better player than i am. but maybe not as good as some of you guys.
    http://pokerlife.wordpress.com/
    18 years old. short-handed $600NL.
  11. #11

    Default Re: Tips from the pro's!

    Quote Originally Posted by johnny_fish
    I get these emails ('Full Tilt Poker Tips from the Pros') and the advice seems bad to me usually..
    The good part is that every other Full Tilt player gets them...
  12. #12
    I don't understand some things...

    I don't understand why nobody explicitly said by far the most important thing:
    He made a terrible mistake by raising in the first place.
    If you wish to be reraised then you should of course raise. If you are ready to fold without much sorrow, you can also raise. But to raising just to find out in an extremely unpleasant situation - that's a very stupid mistake...
    After he've been reraised, he had no good option. Calling and folding are both bad... (Altough I think that folding is just a litle bit better)

    About AA hand:
    You blame him for limping because opponent have flopped trips???
    He limped and got raised all in. That's one of the most beautiful things that could happen (of course if you have AA). I'd always limp if I'm guaranteed to be raised...
    Would it be better to heavily raise and pick up the blinds? With AA?
  13. #13
    [quote="pokerroomace"]
    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg
    even harrington says you should raise AA most of the time and then limp the rest of the time with the intention of re-raising preflop, not smooth calling.
    FYP
    Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
  14. #14
    good bump
  15. #15
    I swear whenever any pro gives a tip he wants people to get worse.
  16. #16
    Ravageur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prolaznik
    I don't understand some things...
    About AA hand:
    You blame him for limping because opponent have flopped trips???
    He limped and got raised all in. That's one of the most beautiful things that could happen (of course if you have AA). I'd always limp if I'm guaranteed to be raised...
    Would it be better to heavily raise and pick up the blinds? With AA?
    I disagree with about everything here. I'd rather raise my AA knowing that there's a slight chance someone will come over the top (and thus comitting a hell of a lot more chips than if i limped and he made a 4-5x BB raise) than to limp reraise and hope the hand is a cooler.

    Also, if I understood the chip stacks properly when I was watching this, most of the chips got in when Furst was drawing to 2 outs. He made his AA impossible to fold because of the passive way he played it (and maybe rightfully assumed that the other dude would be shipping him the pot with KQ or something trashy because Furst had underrepped his hand). Basically, he got outplayed, got lucky and wrote an article about how good he is (Maybe he is really good, i have no idea....but the AA hand isn't a shining moment of his).
    Family Cruise IMO
  17. #17
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    Quick question - if you are passive pre-flop, with a PFR of say 5% or less, should you limp AA MORE often then if you have a >10% PFR and are therefore raising far more hands as a matter of course?

    (obv answer - don't be passive pre-flop - but let's ignore that for now)
  18. #18
    Ravageur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biondino
    Quick question - if you are passive pre-flop, with a PFR of say 5% or less, should you limp AA MORE often then if you have a >10% PFR and are therefore raising far more hands as a matter of course?

    (obv answer - don't be passive pre-flop - but let's ignore that for now)
    I think so. The wider your PFR range is, the less reason there would be to limp AA because you should be getting action from a relatively wide range of hands anyway (and you get to build the pot with the best hand).
    Family Cruise IMO
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravageur
    Also, if I understood the chip stacks properly when I was watching this, most of the chips got in when Furst was drawing to 2 outs.
    Misunderstanding.
    I understood that all in move was before flop. In that case, blaming him for bad play is silly.
    (all I wrote have been written with that assumption, so it's irrelevant now)

    If, however, most of the chips came after two seven showed - that's entirely different story. Though, I can't give my opinion about his play, since I don't know how betting exactly went...

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