Spite calling versus regs to create more future +eV.

How often do you guys make slightly -eV bubble calls v regs in say 6m hypers or 9m hypers or any STT although I guess it is more relevant in hypers cause you will be on the bubble with the same regs over and in over within short periods of time.

Ex. is like all stacks at 10bb. At nash SB should be shipping on our BB 82%. I assume all villains are shoving at least this in the 15s/30s

How aware/good does villain have to be to spite call them a little wide so they tighten up?

How reactionary is the general reg population in the 15s/30s. If they see us do this early on how likely are they to make a poor long term adjustment since we only need to make a few slightly -eV spite calls to force them to throw away a tonne of eV.

The only major problem I see with this at a glance is spite calling someone(someone likely being a bad reg) a couple of times then having them spite call us for the next 2 months.

Last question, in your opinion do you think it's worth it?

I don't think I can really answer this well as I only dabbled in hypers. I think for sure most regs are shipping at least 82% and maybe 100% in this spot.

Last question, in your opinion do you think it's worth it?

The value of getting an occasional walk in hypers is pretty damn big. Also the +EV of calling off light and cracking the top of their range is pretty big if it puts them on monkey tilt for the next several games.

i think just berating other regs in chat is more useful in terms of gaining ev, in cash at least.

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

i think just berating other regs in chat is more useful in terms of gaining ev, in cash at least.

Yeah but spite calling is useless in CAP cause it *almost* never costs both of you money. Spite calling in SNGs however costs both of you some eV and forces your opponent to either tighten up or continue to throw away eV.

Originally Posted by baudib

I don't think I can really answer this well as I only dabbled in hypers. I think for sure most regs are shipping at least 82% and maybe 100% in this spot.

Yeah I was going to talk about if they are shoving 100% but basically if we are calling the proper range when they are shoving 100% they are losing money anyway so calling a little wider and getting them to tighten up when they are making a pretty significant mistake already probably isn't worth it. Still worth talking/thinking about though.

I play turbo 6 max so maybe it's a bit different, but I definitely think it can be useful, especially if you're doing it in spots where it affects their EV way more than it affects yours.

That being said, I don't do it that often unless I am really sure that the reg will adjust or unless I just want to piss him off.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

How reactionary is the general reg population in the 15s/30s. If they see us do this early on how likely are they to make a poor long term adjustment since we only need to make a few slightly -eV spite calls to force them to throw away a tonne of eV.

Many mediocre/bad regs definitely over adjust enough for you to gain quite a bit, IMO. Just target the ones that you see adjusting to other things you do since these ones will almost certainly notice your calls.

Dont you just lose EV either way? If they adjust then you have to maintain that.

We want them to adjust (stop shoving so wide) and then take a long time to adjust back. It is +EV for us until they realize that we're not actually calling as wide as they think we are anymore.

But if they are shoving wide and you widen your call range = nash. From that point no one should adjust. If you call wider then they are shoving then -EV for you and they should never adjust.

I dont think its really possible for someone to gain an edge on nash?

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

But if they are shoving wide and you widen your call range = nash. From that point no one should adjust. If you call wider then they are shoving then -EV for you and they should never adjust.

I dont think its really possible for someone to gain an edge on nash?

We are widening our calling beyond nash. If they keep playing nash( or wider then nash) they will be losing money and so will we. The point is to do it someone who will over adjust for a long period of time. If we are calling looser then nash they should be shoving tighter then nash.

If they are bad and always play nash no matter what then obviously we just play nash optimal v them and because there's nothing else we can do. If they are good they'll always be trying to take the most optimal play and this is where we want to make them make a bad adjustment.

It was explained to me by someone way better then I: If they are playing nash perfect then we can only match but not exploit.

from what i understand, we aren't trying to exploit them playing nash, we're trying to make them stop playing nash by hoping that they adjust to us calling wide (Nash doesn't maximize their ev, and they know that). we then tighten back our calling range and hope that they don't adjust back very fast

we aren't trying to beat nash, we're trying to get them to stop playing it in the first place

It just seems optimistic to me to think regs would snap adjust the second you change strats expecially since they are multitabling and wont notice everything your doing. I for one would never notice this change unless I was specifically reviewing you. Too many other tables and quick choices to be made.

This is why I say dont do it:
1. Assuming nash perfect says shove 82%, you are supposed to call 35% but call 40%. They win because your range is weaker then their shove range.
2. You call tighter then 35%, they win because they steal more then their share.
3. They might not even notice what your doing.
4. Will the EV you make 1 month from now (after they have noticed) be worth it? How is it quantified?
5. Why not just add more tables? Your hourly will likely increase more vs making regs guess what level your on.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

It just seems optimistic to me to think regs would snap adjust the second you change strats expecially since they are multitabling and wont notice everything your doing. I for one would never notice this change unless I was specifically reviewing you. Too many other tables and quick choices to be made.

This is why I say dont do it:
1. Assuming nash perfect says shove 82%, you are supposed to call 35% but call 40%. They win because your range is weaker then their shove range.
2. You call tighter then 35%, they win because they steal more then their share.
3. They might not even notice what your doing.
4. Will the EV you make 1 month from now (after they have noticed) be worth it? How is it quantified?
5. Why not just add more tables? Your hourly will likely increase more vs making regs guess what level your on.

You assume everyone plays perfectly, this assumption is going to cost you much more money then our assumption that good regs adjust and bad regs overadjust in some situations. I assume you are a player who starts jam/folding HU @ 15,12 or 10bb or something along these lines because nash says so even though jamming at any of those stack sizes is not optimal.

You need to address your thinking to consider things outside of near equilibrium poker or you will never become a great player.

Well, your assumptions are wrong.

I mean you are able to play how ever you want to and I was just adding my 2c into the discussion. Sounds like you already made up your mind prior to posting. Good luck and post results.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Well, your assumptions are wrong.

I mean you are able to play how ever you want to and I was just adding my 2c into the discussion. Sounds like you already made up your mind prior to posting. Good luck and post results.

Why are they wrong?

Let me break your points down.
1. Obviously we know this, the point is they will adjust or else we wouldn't do it in the first place.
2. Same as 1.
3. Look at 1.
4. This is what I'm asking. This is why this thread exists. This is why I specifically said it applies a lot more to hypers because more hands in the same spot, people less likely to keep playing nash if they see you do something a few times. It does not take 1 month from now to gain this eV back(we barely give any up and can cause regs to tilt when we call them when we shouldn't), it probably would take a few dozen games in 6m tournies because they won't only adjust in that 1 spot, if they see us as a station they will adjust in MANY MANY other spots.
5. ??? This has nothing to do with anything asked in this thread.


Obviously I play however I want. I want to play the MOST profitable way possible. You want to play the SAFEST(gauging from the things you have said here) way possible. That may be better for you but as a serious player(once again gauging this off the things you have said here) it isn't better for me. If you have experimented with this at X stake and feel it isn't as good as just playing nash in certain spots then say that and I will believe you are right.

I havn't made my mind up about this. I'm only theorizing it. If I had a sharkscope subscription I would probably find out who the biggest winners are(These guys play less tables and adjust more frequently) and experiment myself. I don't have time to do this so I was asking the community as a whole what their opinions on it was and if they are have experimented.

After rereading the things you have said and the great replies you have gotten I don't understand how you can be so ignorant of this works.

edit: I'm not trying to bash on you btw. It's just silly for people to THROW things out the window when they have nothing concrete to back it up.

if I had to guess

I assume you are a player who starts jam/folding HU...

is the assumption he's referencing. You may not have meant it as a 'bash' but it absolutely came out as one.

Drmc beat me to it.

Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

I assume you are a player who starts jam/folding HU @ 15,12 or 10bb or something along these lines because nash says so even though jamming at any of those stack sizes is not optimal.

Is what I was referring to...

I personally think its a mistake to play -EV in order to make good players adjust. I say good players because they are the only ones who know how to actually do this. Bad regs dont adjust and this is what makes them bad (among other things).

I mention just adding tables because your trying to increase your ROI by forcing players to change their game. I say just add a table or two and beat up on the players that suck in volume and work on other things.

I do think making -EV plays has merrit in some cases but reg battling isnt really one of them in this context.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I personally think its a mistake to play -EV in order to make good players adjust. I say good players because they are the only ones who know how to actually do this. Bad regs dont adjust and this is what makes them bad (among other things).

I think you are misunderstanding what "adjust" means in this case. We are actually making these calls against bad regs because they will adjust without thinking about it.

For example, if a reg is shoving into me on a 6m bubble bvb and I call him with stuff like T8s when I shouldn't be, there is a good chance he'll notice this. Even if nash says that something like 85s is in his shoving range, he's not going to want to shove it anymore because he knows that I'll call with T8s and then he's gonna be really behind.

Adjusting to this would mean tightening up his shoves to take advantage of my wide calls. So if we kept calling wide and he kept shoving tighter, we would lose in the long run. That's why we're going to adjust back to tighter calling ranges. So now the end result is we are calling with "correct" ranges and he has stopped shoving with "correct" ranges.

My point is that the reg doesn't exactly have to think long and hard about this adjustment. It comes naturally.

But why is that reg not going to adjust then once you tighten back up? I think its weird to say that they will adjust one way but not the other.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

But why is that reg not going to adjust then once you tighten back up? I think its weird to say that they will adjust one way but not the other.

Because he's a bad? It is also a lot easier to adjust quickly to the shoving tighter side(he sees us call 8Ts), but when we are folding more frequently( he may not notice this for a long long period of time).

If your say a 10tabler and you see someone call you with 8Ts in a silly bubble spot to call with this hand you WILL notice. Your instinct is ALWAYS going to be hey I need to shove tighter into this player. Bad regs will do this but they will do it for much longer then they should. Anyway I think the actual concept has been beaten to death in the thread. It'd be nice to hear ideas on spots we can do this or actual examples of it being put into play, anything other then talking about the same idea over and over.

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

But why is that reg not going to adjust then once you tighten back up? I think its weird to say that they will adjust one way but not the other.

He will, eventually. The thing is when you make an awful call he notices. When you fold to his shoves at the correct rate in nash he will just assume you are having a bad distribution of cards for awhile. Eventually he will forget / realize your range cannot be what he thinks it is.

I dunno I think this conversation is interesting. I used to watch thrash370 play a fair amount and I saw him make some ridiculous bad call based upon icm and tell the reg in chat "fu, stop shoving so wide, I will make it cost both of us money"

Def an interesting conversation, and really only applicable I think in 45s and under. I think spite-calling some 18man regs at the midstakes is potentially SUPER profitable long-term, as you make one "really bad" ICM call and alot of the regs just auto-fishnote you.

Originally Posted by dneureiter

He will, eventually. The thing is when you make an awful call he notices. When you fold to his shoves at the correct rate in nash he will just assume you are having a bad distribution of cards for awhile. Eventually he will forget / realize your range cannot be what he thinks it is.

I dunno I think this conversation is interesting. I used to watch thrash370 play a fair amount and I saw him make some ridiculous bad call based upon icm and tell the reg in chat "fu, stop shoving so wide, I will make it cost both of us money"

Completely forgot about this, Zack used to do this all the time and it was pretty dope, lol.

Originally Posted by dneureiter

I used to watch thrash370 play a fair amount and I saw him make some ridiculous bad call based upon icm and tell the reg in chat "fu, stop shoving so wide, I will make it cost both of us money"

he gets mad if you do it back to him though...

Maybe I am just giving regs too much credit but if they are capable of adjusting its usually both ways from my experience...There are SSSSOOOOO many profitable plays that come up in any sng or MTT that reaching for -EV plays seems like really forcing it.

For everyone who is pro -EV plays to level regs. What do you expect to happen long term? Is this the most optimal?

I'm guessing most hyper turbo regs just mass table these with tn and don't make note of these things till they're in a downswing. But in MTT SNG's it's a different story I'm a reg and I see people adjusting to my shoves by calling light or iso-shoving even my 12bb shoves with A2o or Q9o etc. I personally make a note, colour code them with the defends light colour and readjust my ranges just a tiny bit tighter. So yea I think making a -EV pays dividends in the future.

Also there are other situations where a -EV call is very good because of the improved chances of winning big money but I'd say mainly in MTT's and maybe MTT SNG's where the payouts are real top heavy. In say a multiway pot early in the final two tables of an MTT or something I can see myself calling with a shit hand or suited connector hoping to triple or quadruple up because I know once I get a big stack it's basically 1st place money to me something like 20% of the time or whatever my 3-way equity would be vs folding and getting 4th or 5th place money most of the time.