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Some advice

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  1. #1
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Default Some advice

    Sample is 410 MTT w/ BI from 1$ to 5$. ITM is 30% and ROI is 42%. Best is 17th place, some in the 30th place area, but ussually i bust out around 200th-300th place and i do it w/ mostly 25-35bb. The players pool is over 4000 most MTT, some were 2500, but none less.

    Never hit a final table. Need some pointers to my game, ad i see it is good enough to make a Little money but aint good enough to get me to glory
    Last edited by Razvan729; 10-10-2016 at 11:47 PM.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  2. #2
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    I haven't played a big MTT for a while, and I was not making final tables too often, so pinch of salt required here. That said, I've played a lot of small stakes MTTs over the years, and was profitable, with the occasional bink.

    One important thing to note with small MTTs... people aren't afraid to bust out at bubble. Very few people care about a $5 prize or whatever where the final table prizes are into $100s and beyond. This means that it's not so easy to bully people at the bubble. I think this is a mistake that a lot of solid players make at these stakes.

    I play tight as hell until I'm either forced into push-or-fold mode, or until we're down to last few tables. I don't really adjust at bubble. I'm especially tight immediately after bubble, since lots of people are now going into batshit mode to try and build a stack.

    For me, building a stack is not so important in micro MTTs as simply surviving. My biggest wins have come as a result of patiently surviving, then hitting a good run of form when we're deep. I think it really is a question of patience and luck.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  3. #3
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    To Be onest i think that is the problem ,i play tight , tighter then i do in my cash game. My opening is first 3pos 77+/ AJo+ , 4th add KQo , 5th add JTs -KTs / 6th(HJ) add A2o+/ 22+/ 56s+ / JTo+ 7th(BTN) add 57o+ . 8th(SB) same as 6th(HJ).
    Donț limp. BTN when multiway( Min. 2callers pre) i call SC, small PP, Axs, suited broadways. MP v EP i ussualy flat pre w/ ATs+ and 77+ and AQo. LP v MP about the same , i add some Axs and suited broadways If i think is worth vs MP opener. SB i am tight, vs LP call Axs/77+/ 22-66 when the case/ 3b w/ ATo+/ JJ+. BB v LP i add all broadways and 22+. BB/SB v MP/EP i flat depending on opp and sometimes just go with my feeling.
    That's pretty much my MTT play. Giving my sample and stats, i think is not good enough. Think that If i would take more risks, probably my ITM would Be Lower but my ROI higher by making IT deeper into the money.
    Now i just cruise to the field w/ 25-50bb and most times bust out in style when there is last 10-15% field remaining.
    So , are my ranges to tight or just the fact that Fields are mostly over 3000/4000 people makes IT tougher to Be on final tables more often? I think is bad that i never made a final table in 400 MTT. Like i said, my best is 17th and about 10x around 30th place, rest are all 100-300 when o cash.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  4. #4
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Now i just cruise to the field w/ 25-50bb and most times bust out in style when there is last 10-15% field remaining.
    If you're regularly getting this deep, then it's a matter of time before you run good at just the right time.

    The thing with MTTs, especially micros, is that getting to final table is not a matter of skill, it's a matter of luck. We're playing the numbers game here. If you have 30bb+ by the time we're down to last 10%, then you're doing just fine. Sooner or later, it'll come good.

    Do I think you're too tight? I'm assuming we're full table here, not 6max.

    I actually think you're too loose UTG. I'm just gonna open fold 77 and AJo UTG, might even ditch 88/99 if there's a lot of 3betting. I'm not even thrilled with AQo utg with a mid sized stack, though I'll r/f it. I'm prepared to l/c small pairs in all positions during the first blind level, but once the blinds start going up then I won't limp either.

    I'm probably not calling ATs from MP vs EP raises either, not unless it's vs a fish and the table isn't 3betting often.

    I'm generally super tight in early position, and loosen up somewhat from HJ+. I don't tend to play KQo until HJ unless table is passive.

    I play a more loose-aggressive style once we get to final two tables, I find people easier to bully when we're this deep because they're better players who probably have stats and notes that imply I'm tight-aggressive.

    But up until final two tables, it really is a case of survival for me. I want 30bb+, and I'm happy. Once I'm below 20bb, I'm looking to double up and will 3b shove most pairs, and once I'm below 10bb, I'm getting desperate and will widen my range considerably. But so long as I'm 30bb+, I tend to fold a lot.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    It's also super important that you don't pay any attention to how many chips the chip leader has. There's always going to be a monster stack. Don't let that be a distraction, you're not chasing him.

    The average stack is somewhat important, but if it's above 30bb I don't tend to pay much attention to that either.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  6. #6
    chardrian's Avatar
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    You are playing HUGE field MTTs so variance is going to be HUGE as well.

    The fact that you actually have a positive ROI without making a final table is actually pretty impressive. If you took my 1st-3rd scores out I bet my ROI would have been either breakeven or negative.

    That said, it is really hard to give general advice without seeing actual hands. Your ranges seem fine to me but hard to say definitively as a lot of what you play and how you play should also change depending on table and stack size dynamics.

    A lot also depends on how you play postflop. For example, are you raising or just flatting with your big draws? Are you willing to bluff postflop when you feel that you actually have a good opportunity to do so? For me at least, waiting for a good run of cards just seemed like I was treating poker like a lottery. So I was almost always willing to make moves at some point of any tourney that I took down. But I also walked a very fine line between spewing and making defensible bluffs.

    Post hands, give as much info as you can, and keep playing and studying.
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  7. #7
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chardrian
    For me at least, waiting for a good run of cards just seemed like I was treating poker like a lottery.
    I do understand this sentiment. But the brutal truth about lage MTTs at micros is that they are much like a lottery. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blinding out waiting for hands, I'm just not trying to make things happen when I'm sat with a reasonable stack.

    I guess it comes down to personal experience. I mean my deepest runs have come from being tight and patient. Often, I've blown a decent stack trying to keep ahead of the average, either due to a horrible misread, or just pure spew. Once I start playing badly, I find it hard to get back into the right frame of mind, and all my hard work is undone in ten crazy minutes. That annoys me more than simply being card dead or coolered.

    Being successful at MTTs is a question of stamina. If you're looking to pick your spots to make plays, that's fine if you think you have the stamina to maintain the standard required to ensure it's not moving into spew territory. I don't think I do, I make too many mistakes when I start getting out of line. I don't want to be doing too much mental gymnastics through the course of the tourney, otherwise I'll get tired quicker. I want my decisions to be as standard as possible until we're down to the final two or three tables. My strength is that I don't get bored easily, so I do have the stamina to keep folding while maintaining focus.

    I guess it's a matter of playing to your strengths, playing in a way that you can do without getting tired or frustrated.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Math dictates my poker actions so am not afraid to stack off w/ 9+ flop outs, but in the right situation, but there are times when i just call, depenfing on stacks and people left before the money.

    Bluffing is tricky, my cash games i do IT vs regs, only those that donț pay me, never vs unknowns or recreational players, fish, would Be pointless. I bluff as an investement and once caught i cool down vs that player since i nave seen that just one bluff every few weeks is enough to widen then up and increase my EV. That beeing said, i donț bluff in MTT.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  9. #9
    chardrian's Avatar
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    I can't imagine winning a huge field tourney without bluffing.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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  10. #10
    Variance can be huge in those big mtts, particularly when the stacks aren't deep and/or the structure is fast. If you play a lot of cash, you should seek out the deeper, slower structures - I find those much easier to go deep in as most mtt players make relatively bigger mistakes deep.

    My first thought was that you're finishing in the money too much. Normally more than about 20% ITM suggests you're hanging on in there to bubble with a short stack too much, when you'd be better off playing more aggressively earlier and cruising past the bubble. But if you're hitting the bubble with 30bb+ then you're doing something right up to that point. Eventually you'll win the 6-7 flips you need to pull you through.

    I play micro mtts loose now (since most play too tight) and jury's out as to whether that's better than "tight is right". I will say that when I see a looser, more aggressive player deep in mtts and look them up, they're always in the top 0.5%. Part of the change in strategy was also because I realised that I was needing too much luck to run deep and needing to hold on too many flips. Now I can normally survive a couple of lost flips against short stacks the times I run deep.

    Tl;dr: don't be scared to bust out of a tournament doing something that will look dumb the times you run into the top of an opponent's range. Look to be more aggressive in good spots and set yourself up for a score.
    Last edited by The Bean Counter; 10-15-2016 at 06:25 PM.
  11. #11
    OngBonga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chardrian View Post
    I can't imagine winning a huge field tourney without bluffing.
    Depends what you mean by "bluffing".

    Is a flop cbet in position with AJo on Kxx a bluff? How about check/raising a gutshot + overcard? Semibluffs and cbets, well yeah we need to have these plays in our arsenal. But outright bluffs, the out-of-line shit like check/raising jack high because we have a sick read that villain is full of shit, I think we'll find ourselves in trouble more often than not if we play like this, unless we're very skilled when it comes to hand reading.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #12
    chardrian's Avatar
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    To me, bluffing means betting when you know you are very likely way behind. So raising preflop with trash hoping to steal the blinds and 3-betting pre against a perpetual blind stealer with ATC were probably my most common bluffs, but yes I would also occasionally do things like c/r jack high with a read that the villain was either FOS or that villain just couldn't withstand the pressure.

    When you play solely by defined preflop ranges, your tourney life will depend solely on what cards you get. At some point, I felt, that I couldn't depend solely on cards.

    So I definitely did things like try to steal the blinds with 72o from the button, or 3-bet with 72o from the blinds against a blind stealer. Which you simply are not doing if you are playing solely by predetermined ranges. Again table dynamics matter - so if I knew the blinds would not fold preflop to my button raise, then yes I would revert to raising only with value hands. But as a general matter, late in a tourney, my default mode was to take chips when they were being offered, and bluffing was the way to do that.
    http://chardrian.blogspot.com
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