QQ v's raise, re, re-raise all in PF... easy fold?

I think i know the answer here already, put i'm posting it none the less, while my mistake is still fresh and also so you guys can drill me so that i never do it again. (and also to pop my cherry for posting hands.)

i only have 27 hands on all of the people on this table so not alot to go off, the 1st raiser is 21/11, the cut off who is big stacked and has shoved a couple of times pf to push people out already is 22/19 and the btn has been on the maniac side with 4x BB raises in late position 6 out of 7 times, is 54/38.

i was pretty certain i was beat here but i just couldn't lay them down, that's something i certainly need to work on. all i could see when i imagined folding.... was JJ and AK AK, which i would of loved to have been up against. rookie mistake

Full Tilt - |60/120 NL - Holdem - 9 players


Hero (BB): 6,729
UTG: 3,334
UTG+1: 8,542
UTG+2: 5,860
MP: 1,995
MP+1: 745
CO: 15,547
BTN: 6,799
SB: 2,958

SB posts SB 60, Hero posts BB 120

Pre Flop: (pot: 180) Hero has Q Q

fold, fold, fold, MP raises to 240, fold, CO raises to 687, BTN raises to 6,799 and is all-in, fold, Hero calls 6,609 and is all-in, MP calls 1,755 and is all-in, CO calls 6,112

Flop: (22,382, 4 players) 6 6 3

Turn: (22,382, 4 players) 7

River: (22,382, 4 players) 5

BTN shows K A (One Pair, Sixes) (Pre 5%, Flop 0%, Turn 0%)
Hero shows Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes) (Pre 18%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
MP shows J J (Two Pair, Jacks and Sixes) (Pre 16%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
CO shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Sixes) (Pre 60%, Flop 81%, Turn 90%)
CO wins 22,382

I think you've already answered your own question.

A reluctant, but obvious fold. You're facing a five-bet shove with two to act behind. It's evident that someone has QQ beat in that mix.

yeah i know i messed up. since i've starting to actually treat poker seriously and begin the long process of learning the game... this is the first time a situation like this has cropped up... and i certainly proved my mother correct anyway... she always said that i always choose to learn things the hard way!

Welcome to the forums, please post more hands

I have the same problem, I get a good hand and decide to play it before the betting has even started. There's a raise, a reraise and still I don't change my mind. Definitely plan to stop doing it in 2013.

Also, we don't need to see what the villains had - you're playing against a range of hands and seeing their actual holding could bias any responses you get in the thread.

Originally Posted by agnesamurphy

A reluctant, but obvious fold. You're facing a five-bet shove with two to act behind. It's evident that someone has QQ beat in that mix.

I agree with the fold , but wasn't it a 4bet shove?

Originally Posted by dombo

I agree with the fold , but wasn't it a 4bet shove?

You're right, it was a 4-bet shove. I accidentally counted the initial raise as a 3-bet.

the call isn't that bad.

Thank you for the comments. I certainly will start posting more hands, I've been a bit tied down with work lately so I've just been reading the free ftr e-book the last couple of days.

My best mate is coming back to live with us in 2weeks, I'd like to ask your opinions on what we have planned. We're both reading ftr and a few books and finally taking the game seriously, we both love mtt play and we both want to eventually play live tourneys, for a living! (aiming high) we both have decent paying jobs and plan to put $1000 in each, to make a 2k BR, we are going to just study a few hrs 2/3 nights a week after, then on our weekends get into playing. Him on his laptop and me on mine.

So could it work? Joint BR, both helping each other out with reviewing hands and plays, helping with any tilt moments etc... I know it's a bit different and could be a minefield... But we would never argue over money and we would make a great team I believe. I just haven't really heard of anyone else doing this.

That's exactly how I learnt to play poker. I lived with a good friend in second year and we learnt to play MTTs together, read books, discussed hands, encouraged each other. I wouldn't aim to play live tournaments - aim to play online tournaments. There's plenty of stages of progression online and you can make a much better hourly and have a much bigger chance of succeeding playing online. Then you can swap your focus to live if you really wanted to.

If I were you, I'd start with small tournaments - maybe $1 45 mans or something, and set a target. You'll play more fish, identify your leaks cheaply. Set a profit target with a minimum number of games (we can help you with that) and then move up. Repeat at say $3 90 mans on FTP, then $5 average buyin at MTTs, and keep moving up. When you get more confident you can ignore the minimum game target.

The key thing to do which will benefit you in your long run is don't discuss beats, full stop. You're both going to receive one hell of a lot of beats if you play a lot, and discussing them also creates a feeling of entitlement. If every 5 minutes one of you turns to the other and goes "fuck I just lost queens to aces all" then it's a far less competitive atmosphere than if you keep being like "oh, my best day ever today", "won ANOTHER tournament" etc. Prop bets between the two of you would be a good idea to push you both on, that worked for me

Having someone to discuss HH's with, work on game & be competitive with sounds great (motivating, etc.). Not sure if I quite understand part of what you're saying, 'sharing the bankroll'? Don't think I'd be into that at all - - one of you might be more motivated, excel more quickly, etc.

good luck on your journey!
(oh & btw... I just went out final two tables aipf AA < TT with them hitting a T on river... ffs. < Just kidding!)

One of the problems that I have had recently as well. Re-evaluating the strength of your hand. Normally I am referring to the board texture (flush/straight possibilities), but in this scenario it is all of the action that is happening around you.

Definitely a reluctant fold to make, but it is the right play almost all of the time.

niceone pascal, thanks for sharing that. he spent 2months with us when he first came out from england last year and all we did was play poker to get away from the wives... we were your typical fish donators though! we both knew we were doing something wrong and both started trying to find out what in november when he came back for another month. after now reading 3/4 of the stickies and recently purchasing pt4 and a few books, we are on the right path and any extra help is very very appreciated. the live tourney dream is a long haul dream and i don't expect it any time soon, would be over the moon to be a winning player online for a few years first.

i've had more successes with small sit n go's over the last few weeks and been making smaller than normal losses at the cash tables (when i don't have the full day to concentrate on tourneys) - that was painful to type out, smaller than normal losses... ouch, feel like a dumbo just typing that but we got to start somewhere hey. some more info on setting a profit target would be much appreciated thanks. i certainly need to add some structure to my play and start my bankroll management NOW! i've been making the excuse of... i'll just use this last $100 until my mate gets back here late jan, then jumping into tourneys (not bothered about buy in amount really, anything under $10/12) so just writing this out is helping to realise that that needs to stop right now.

as for the bad beat talk, that is something we will be working on... we always used to go about em so... now we're starting to learn the game, and realise we need the fish to suck out sometimes so that they keep coming back and that eventually our game will turn us into winning players, that negative talk will be out the window mate. we are both positive people in life anyway so translating that into our routine won't be a problem. and putting a wager on as well is a great idea, never thought of that. would definitely add a little bit more to our play!

yeah the sharing bankroll idea, i thought that might bring up a few questions. we plan to buy a house together the 4 of us in the coming years, it's not a short term plan we're working to, so the whole poker dream, is very much a shared one for us and it will be 50/50 all the way. we are both fair and honest lads so if anyone of us were to theoretically start falling behind and maybe not putting as much time and effort over a sustained period.... the one that was doing it would stand up and be the first to admit it, and we would both say to the other... look, i haven't been playing no where near as much as you this month, and we are $XXX up in profit... so you're gonna take 75% of it this month, i'm only taking 25% cos i've been a lazy prick. it wouldn't ever get to a point of being a problem.

looking forward to more help and tips. thanks again.

I had the same thing pop up to me... I was bb and the guy utg bet like 6k chips... I felt like had aa ak or kk and I couldn't lay the qq down, but I think from now on if Im running good in a tourney and I don't need to risk my tourney life, i will gladly fold and play more hands... I think its a process all poker players have to learn... Sexy hands lose :/

Missed the sharing bankroll thing. Definitely don't do that man, it's a bad idea that will only cause friction. Not only will you have problems initially have to move money around when people bust fairly small rolls, in the long term it's going to cause massive problem as people progress at different rates and play different stakes, one person might think they're better than they are or tilt off half "your" roll. You're talking about saving up and buying a house together, what if one of you gets a girlfriend and wants out but they've been running hot and you've been running cold so they've won significantly more profit? You'd both be better off starting with half of the roll each.

Originally Posted by Pascal

Missed the sharing bankroll thing. Definitely don't do that man, it's a bad idea that will only cause friction. Not only will you have problems initially have to move money around when people bust fairly small rolls, in the long term it's going to cause massive problem as people progress at different rates and play different stakes, one person might think they're better than they are or tilt off half "your" roll. You're talking about saving up and buying a house together, what if one of you gets a girlfriend and wants out but they've been running hot and you've been running cold so they've won significantly more profit? You'd both be better off starting with half of the roll each.

Yah for sure this ^

You could maybe consider backing each other (if one is running better than the other)

Originally Posted by Poker Orifice

(if one is PLAYING better than the other)

Another option would be equity swaps, that's pretty common. If you both play the same tournament then you agree to give the other person 20% of any cashes.

We've both spoken about it and agree all your advice makes sense but, we will give our way a try, and we'll know of its not right to do very soon and both will revert to having a bankroll each and then doing a 20% equity swap as pascal suggests.

On a side note. I've been playing 27, 45 and 90 player sng's without any cashes, all $1.10 to $3.50 BI. With a couple of big mtt thrown in too, been an off week in that respect but my spare hours here and there, I've been on rush $25nl and have been cleaning up... Might begin to take more of a line towards the cash games as I'm obviously enjoying it and learning loads along the way. Also with rush I'm beginning to get a semi decent hand sample to review and run the leak tracker on... I play the blinds wwwaaaaaaaayyyyy too much!

the 1st raiser is 21/11, the cut off who is big stacked and has shoved a couple of times pf to push people out already is 22/19 and the btn has been on the maniac side with 4x BB raises in late position 6 out of 7 times, is 54/38.

I'm not folding QQ here.

In some situations with good players you need to fold QQ preflop, like this hand...I had a similar situation at 3,500$ freezeout with 5,5$ buyin. UTG raised with QQ, then was my turn to act with QQ from utg+2(reraised little), cut off re reraised me with JJ and finally BB pushed all in with AA. Me and the utg player threwed the hands.

All the players in this hand had about the same stacks(middle stacks).

AA wins the pot easily against JJ.