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Push Fold Charts Questions

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  1. #1

    Default Push Fold Charts Questions

    I have quite a bit of questions about this and in general push/fold.

    1. Is playing push/fold according to this chart going to be unexploitable? I had read this is the case.

    2. Do you consider these charts to be a bit tight? Example, they do it for 10bb, 8bb, 6bb, 5bb, 4bb, 3bb and 2bb. First off... isn't anything thats 5bb and under pretty much close to the same? I mean looking at the chart, even at 5bb if you are utg minimum hand to shove UTG is 109s. I mean... shouldn't shoving 98s be pretty much automatic here as well? I would say the chart for 10bb and 8bb looks right though im not a math person but i feel like its way too tight at 5bb and under. I mean... are ppl really suppose to not shove certain hands at 6bb as oppose to 3bb or 4bb compared to 2bb? To me, anything thats 5bb and under is pretty much the sa

    3. I see at 10bb, if you are utg for example, you are shoving any pair, any ace suited, 109s etc. However... what if you have say 12bb or 15bb utg? To me, any pair shoving all in utg is right up to 15bb even 22. Right or wrong? Also... would A2s be a shoving hand UTG with 12bb? What about 15bb? I feel like pairs you can shove utg with 15bb... but with a2s... its not. Also 109s and J10s would be a fold. However... i feel that KQs would be a shove at 15bb. Or should all of these hands be treated the same as any pocket pair and AK etc? I feel like its good to shove 15bb if you are MP with A2s and 109s and 98s. However... early position, i don't. Thoughts on this? Also would shoving 77 or J10s with say 18bb in MP be standard? I seen quite a bit of players do this at 180 mans where they just open shove as oppose to min raise. The thing is you are risking 18bb to win 2.3bb or so but then again you dont want to min raise with 77 then have to call an all in where you are going to be at best 50/50 unless they are doing this with 22-66. Thing is chart only shows up to 10bb... so is basically it the same as 12bb, 15bb, 18bb or even 20bb? Because i stopped shoving all in UTG with 15bb with say A2s now. However, no issue doing this with 77. But at 18bb... would doing this with 77 still be reckless? Because well someone can have monster and you could min raise then fold. However... what do you do with 22-66 then with 12bb stack, 15bb stack, 18bb stack or 20bb utg or utg+1? I just have hard time folding pocket pair in EP. Usually i just min raise fold unless the reshover has small stack.

    4. Related to question 3. But I read a while back you can shove up to 20bb with any pocket pair and its profitable. Thus if you shove 22 UTG with 20bb, its profitable. Is that statement still true or false? That seems to be a bit reckless to me. Even doing this with say 77 or 88 I think its a bit loose. For me it would be a raise then fold if someone with big stack comes over the top.

    5. I read 15bb and under, just open shove. Agree or disagree? Of course monsters like aa and kk min raise is good as well. However... what about AK? Is it better to just shove it as oppose to min raise then call if it get reshove? The thing is if u open shove ak with 15bb... then ppl would fold 55 etc but if you min raise, they will come over the top and then you call and its a flip. Of course if they reshove aq, aj, kq etc you want that to happen. But the other thing is it opens up to players 3betting all in with hands like J10s and Q10s and though you are decent favorite, you aren't big favorite when going against aq, aj, a10, ax suited and Kq, KJ etc. Thoughts on this?

    6. I read there was actually a program where it tells you if shoving all in is profitable in each position with a certain amount of BB. Can someone tell me what program is this or where i can test this out? I think this is called jenifear spreadsheet? However that is many years ago but is it still valid today? I believe theres also another program or sheet that calculates if its good to call all ins? Such as if someone UTG shoves for 12bb... what hands can you call where its profitable in MP or LP etc. Can someone tell me name of this program or spreadsheet? Also are these sheets/programs... do you just input everyones stack size and then put down who is shoving all in? Or if its you, then it says okay if you shove 15bb in EP with J9s... its profitable but not by much?

    7. What is the minimum amount of BB where open shoving is good? I know 15bb and under open shoving is fine. But what about when you have pocket 22 and have say 20bb. I seen players open shove 20bb heads up with 22 and 33 but thats obviously correct since min raise then calling it off is worst right? However i also seen players open shove 20bb effective stack on the button with hands like j10s and j9s. These are profitable shoving with 10bb stack and under and obviously with 15bb stack on the button since its late position but what about 20bb? What about 25bb? The great things about these hands like j10s and j9s is even if you get called, you have at least decent equity if the caller has AK or 88 etc.

    8. Is raise folding with anything less than 15bb horrible? I read someone mentioned don't raise fold with 22bb. However that guys a tournament player so if one plays say 180 mans.. that doesn't apply? So raise folding with 16bb would be fine but don't do it with 15bb or less? Or should it always be 22bb minimum? Also would it matter a lot if its mtt vs mtt turbo sng vs turbo mtt?
    Last edited by Keith; 05-14-2015 at 03:18 AM.
  2. #2
    Who is the author of this chart? Can I trust him?
  3. #3
    I think that pushing depends a lot in how the other players play. If they tend to fold a lot, you have to push more hands because you have more FE, if he calls more you have to push less hands. This is even more important if you are on sb, btn and co. So tecnically the chart is not correct or incorrect
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by matiusaa View Post
    I think that pushing depends a lot in how the other players play. If they tend to fold a lot, you have to push more hands because you have more FE, if he calls more you have to push less hands. This is even more important if you are on sb, btn and co. So technically the chart is not correct or incorrect
    Somehow when I decide to shove 34o from the button into some extremely tight blinds, they always so snap off with a monster hand. I know it's the proper play in the situation but is always stings for a late stage bustout.

    I think optimal push/fold charts run under the assumption that the opponents are also playing close to optimal calling ranges. So any deviations in their standard calling ranges would need to be slightly adjusted by you.
  5. #5
    If you are serious about grinding make your own charts.

    For recreational purposes though going with someone elses can't be a terrible choice, as it is time consuming to make your own. Just be aware you have no guarantee on their accuracy or practicality as you have given up this element of control.
  6. #6
    Whether you shove even with a low stack is still opponent and stack dependent, if you are looking to have fold equity.Shoving weak against a big stack you will be called.The same would apply against a lot of LAGs and many Stations.
    I would be looking to shove against stacks around my size, or against NITs, with the weaker part of my range.
  7. #7
    Eric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    California, USA
    Read HOH2 and quiz yourself on all his practice problems until you always see where Harrington is coming from.
  8. #8
    Eric, their is a better tournament series written by Jonathan Little, this contains shoving information and is more current.Action Dan played very tight, todays players are all action and you need to keep stealing at the right times to keep your stack relevant
  9. #9
    But the fundamentals never change, so i would start with Harrington before i move to Lee Nelson, Jon Little .. all great guys too!
  10. #10
    There's nothing wrong with playing to a chart as you learn poker, but you don't want to be relying on it because it's teaching you nothing about adjusting against different villains, which is critical if you're going to maximise your winrate.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    I do not rely on push/fold chart personally as its value depend on my opponent's play. Opening with a small raise and see how your opponents react at the tables is a better strategy (which suggested a lot by Negreanu). I move all-in only when my stack size drops below 10BB and reshove all-in only when my stack size is below 20BB.

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