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Playing Ax hands ?

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  1. #1

    Default Playing Ax hands ?

    Hello

    My question here is pretty straight on. Is it worth limping Ax suited hands hoping to hit a flush ? I'm talking about the first few lvls where blinds are low. Is it worth even calling a raise hoping to hit a flush or is it to dangerous to play them in case you hit an A it can be hard to fold?
    How do you guys play these hands ? Limp ? Raise ? Fold ? (thats what I'm doing with them right now)
  2. #2
    FOLD, open raise later position, or limp behind tons of limpers. Mainly the bold one.

    almost never calling an open raise unless its a minraise and there are a bunch of callers already.
  3. #3
    It depends on the implied odds.

    The implied odds depend on:

    - how big the effective stack size is in relation to the amount it costs me to call;
    - how many players are likely to be in the pot;
    - how likely those players will give me their chips when I hit
    (the latter depends on:
    - how loose/bad they are;
    - what their range is.)

    Another things to consider:

    - how likely is someone behind me to raise?
    (depends on the number of players yet to act, on their aggressiveness and some other things)
    - how good an alternative is raising in the first place?
    (depends on ??? )
  4. #4
    Fielmann

    There is some stuff to consider , I'm awear of that. But knowing the odds to actually flop a flush makes me doubts its even worth playing those hands.

    With two suited cards
    Flush 0.8% 117.8 to 1
    Flush draw 10.9% 8.1 to 1
    Backdoor flush draw 41.6% 1.4 to 1
    Flush by the river 6.4% 14.6 to 1

    I'm not an expert when it comes to calculating stuff but just by looking at it , it does feel like I would loose more chips limping/raising or what ever than I would win if I actually hit and get paid off nicely. Or am I wrong ?
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by adii View Post
    Fielmann

    There is some stuff to consider , I'm awear of that. But knowing the odds to actually flop a flush makes me doubts its even worth playing those hands.

    With two suited cards
    Flush 0.8% 117.8 to 1
    Flush draw 10.9% 8.1 to 1
    Backdoor flush draw 41.6% 1.4 to 1
    Flush by the river 6.4% 14.6 to 1

    I'm not an expert when it comes to calculating stuff but just by looking at it , it does feel like I would loose more chips limping/raising or what ever than I would win if I actually hit and get paid off nicely. Or am I wrong ?
    I haven't checked your numbers, but they look about right to me. Even limping 20 chips at the 1500 level is 1.33% of your stack, so this play is no good especially considering opponents to act after us might reraise and we don't even get to see a flop. We would have to be winning pots where we flop flush draws, two pair and top pair - but the later carries reverse implied odds as well.

    IMO Ax suited plays better in folded pots where we are in a LP. We can raised and try steal the blinds. If we get calls we have a high-card plus some extra equity from the suitedness allowing us to hit flushes and semi-bluff draws.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakamura View Post
    I haven't checked your numbers, but they look about right to me. Even limping 20 chips at the 1500 level is 1.33% of your stack, so this play is no good especially considering opponents to act after us might reraise and we don't even get to see a flop. We would have to be winning pots where we flop flush draws, two pair and top pair - but the later carries reverse implied odds as well.

    IMO Ax suited plays better in folded pots where we are in a LP. We can raised and try steal the blinds. If we get calls we have a high-card plus some extra equity from the suitedness allowing us to hit flushes and semi-bluff draws.

    They are definitly a fold for me in the early part of the tournament. Still an okay hand later on when the blinds get high. The hand just seems to be too much of a problem playing early, even if you do hit a flush draw or top pair it can sometimes be hard to let go. Maybe its just best not to risk ending up in that situation
  7. #7
    If the intention is to never win a hand unless you flop a made flush or 2-pair, then I agree: you can forget about the implied odds altogether, because you're not getting them.

    In reality, however, one should recognise the value of balancing one's range, having equity vs different ranges, the relatively high chance of getting good turn cards, etc.

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