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Need to tighten up my SnG game

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  1. #1

    Default Need to tighten up my SnG game

    I usually just played 2nl games, but i am tired of playing at such low stakes. So, i now want to begin grinding down some SnG to build my bankroll. I am an experienced live game player, but online i really need to tighten up my game. I made this topic in hopes that i can get help to tighten up my SnG game be it through getting linked to other topics, or discussion in this thread. any and all help is welcome.


    Thanks, Ktrain
  2. #2
    fulksy's Avatar
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    Hi Welcome, if your only rolled for 2nl i wouldn't recommend playing higher then $2 Sngs. I'm a pretty big BR nit but for micro sngs I would say you should have at least 50 BI's preferably more (some say less so i guess its what your comfortable with). SnG's can have pretty high variance and having a proper BR makes the downswings easier to handle.

    read the stickies at the top of the forum, post hands or full SnGs for review

    This is probably one of the best threads
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...-a-128040.html
  3. #3
    Okay, so stick with the low SnGs till i build up my BR, dont go crazy playing higher games on a whim. I would have a larger BR but for about 2 months PS wont let me or any of my friends in the area deposit. Only way to get more money in my account right now is a player transfer, which is a hassle to have to wait roughly 17 days for some money to be put in my account. I will need to figure out how to go about posting hands and full SnGs, but once i do i will begin posting them for review. thanks for the link, im going to go ahead and get to reading that for now, and i will for sure check out the stickies too.
  4. #4
    fulksy's Avatar
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    yea seems like lots of American's are having trouble, even more so lately.

    posting hands and tourny's is pretty easy, in PS go to request>hand histories>and you can request to save hand histories to a specific file on your computer. then just copy and past them into the HH converter or tourny trimmer on FTR. then press covert and copy and paste the output.(not sure if that made any sense)

    GL.
  5. #5
    really? a lot of people in america are having troubles? hmm. gunna research a bit on that. and yeah that actually did make sense to me, thank you sir, i will probably be jumping into some tourneys right after i get out of this class, that or tomorrow. Thanks again
  6. #6
    Depositing from America is a bitch.
  7. #7
    Check out the stickies, learn ICM, play very tight in the beginning, avoid completing too much and playing hands OOP. Basically play the opening levels like a cash nit. In the later stages you can open up your game a lot and you need to be able to change gears to go ftw.

    Now post some hands!
  8. #8
    My buddy tyler was helpin me last night in the tourneys i was playing. just 1+.20 SnGs 9max. when i get out of this class im gunna play some more and i will start posting hands. im actually going to be streaming the games to tyler probably through livestream if anyone else would like to watch and critique. but hands will be going up tonight. thanks for the help thus far guys
  9. #9
    sorry, if someone could convert this for me and repost it that would be great, i cant post with the bbcodes yet. think i heard it is 10 posts before i can?

    *********** # 1 **************
    PokerStars Game #57079376457: Tournament #360740257, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/02/03 22:27:18 ET
    Table '360740257 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
    Seat 1: morozik1970 (1675 in chips)
    Seat 2: jailbird1985 (1450 in chips)
    Seat 3: michelle7777 (2860 in chips)
    Seat 4: nasty jim (1385 in chips)
    Seat 5: 4flush2bet (2040 in chips)
    Seat 6: scareface17 (1230 in chips)
    Seat 7: MFKtrain90 (1305 in chips)
    Seat 8: bujiquers (995 in chips)
    Seat 9: bmfic (560 in chips)
    bmfic: posts small blind 15
    morozik1970: posts big blind 30
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MFKtrain90 [5s 5c]
    jailbird1985: folds
    michelle7777: calls 30
    nasty jim: folds
    4flush2bet: folds
    scareface17: folds
    MFKtrain90: calls 30
    bujiquers: calls 30
    bmfic: calls 15
    morozik1970: checks
    *** FLOP *** [Jd Ac 3d]
    bmfic: checks
    morozik1970: checks
    michelle7777: checks
    MFKtrain90: checks
    bujiquers: checks
    *** TURN *** [Jd Ac 3d] [4h]
    bmfic: checks
    morozik1970: checks
    michelle7777: bets 90
    MFKtrain90: calls 90
    bujiquers: folds
    bmfic: calls 90
    morozik1970: folds
    *** RIVER *** [Jd Ac 3d 4h] [Kh]
    bmfic: checks
    michelle7777: checks
    MFKtrain90: checks
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    bmfic: shows [9h As] (a pair of Aces)
    michelle7777: mucks hand
    MFKtrain90: mucks hand
    bmfic collected 420 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 420 | Rake 0
    Board [Jd Ac 3d 4h Kh]
    Seat 1: morozik1970 (big blind) folded on the Turn
    Seat 2: jailbird1985 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: michelle7777 mucked [3c 2s]
    Seat 4: nasty jim folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: 4flush2bet folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: scareface17 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: MFKtrain90 mucked [5s 5c]
    Seat 8: bujiquers (button) folded on the Turn
    Seat 9: bmfic (small blind) showed [9h As] and won (420) with a pair of Aces




    did i play this right? if not where was i faulted?
  10. #10
    heres another that i was wondering if i played it right or not



    *********** # 1 **************
    PokerStars Game #57079851059: Tournament #360740257, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2011/02/03 22:42:11 ET
    Table '360740257 1' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
    Seat 1: morozik1970 (1957 in chips)
    Seat 2: jailbird1985 (635 in chips)
    Seat 3: michelle7777 (1612 in chips)
    Seat 4: nasty jim (1145 in chips)
    Seat 5: 4flush2bet (2736 in chips)
    Seat 6: scareface17 (970 in chips)
    Seat 7: MFKtrain90 (1560 in chips)
    Seat 9: bmfic (2885 in chips)
    scareface17: posts small blind 50
    MFKtrain90: posts big blind 100
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MFKtrain90 [2s As]
    bmfic: folds
    morozik1970: calls 100
    jailbird1985: folds
    michelle7777: raises 100 to 200
    nasty jim: folds
    4flush2bet: calls 200
    scareface17: folds
    MFKtrain90: calls 100
    morozik1970: calls 100
    *** FLOP *** [Ad 2h 2c]
    MFKtrain90: checks
    morozik1970: checks
    michelle7777: bets 300
    4flush2bet: folds
    MFKtrain90: raises 600 to 900
    morozik1970: folds
    michelle7777: calls 600
    *** TURN *** [Ad 2h 2c] [6h]
    MFKtrain90: bets 460 and is all-in
    michelle7777: folds
    Uncalled bet (460) returned to MFKtrain90
    MFKtrain90 collected 2650 from pot
    MFKtrain90: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 2650 | Rake 0
    Board [Ad 2h 2c 6h]
    Seat 1: morozik1970 folded on the Flop
    Seat 2: jailbird1985 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: michelle7777 folded on the Turn
    Seat 4: nasty jim folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: 4flush2bet (button) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: scareface17 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 7: MFKtrain90 (big blind) collected (2650)
    Seat 9: bmfic folded before Flop (didn't bet)


    again sorry about it not being converted. but how am i doing?
  11. #11
    nice_aiau's Avatar
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    Hand 1: Fold turn. Set or forget. Chasing draws, especially gutshots is a terribly easy way of bleeding chips.

    Hand 2: Fold preflop, once your stack gets to about 15bb you don't want to be playing speculative hands such as this. I know its tempting, but you need those extra 100 chips for better things. At 10/20 - 20/40 and it was minraised and you knew it was going to be a multiway pot calling could be alright. Also, if your going to be committing chips if you hit an ace calling is doing you more bad then good.
  12. #12
    okay so should have folded the turn. i forgot the Set or Forget rule, i read it like 10 times earlier today too.

    and hand 2 i did forget to mention that the minraise came from a known fish. should i still have folded even with that knowledge?
  13. #13
    nice_aiau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    okay so should have folded the turn. i forgot the Set or Forget rule, i read it like 10 times earlier today too.

    and hand 2 i did forget to mention that the minraise came from a known fish. should i still have folded even with that knowledge?
    Your going to be out of position against him in a multiway pot. If you had AT+ (depending on how fishy he was, I.e seen him allin with Ax) you could shove 3b to isolate him.
  14. #14
    okay thanks for the tips. really appreciate it. starting another. probably my last one for the night.
  15. #15
    nice_aiau's Avatar
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    GL
  16. #16
    okay did i just make the right play? i mean it paid off, but im not sure that it was the right play or if i should have even been in the hand.



    *********** # 1 **************
    PokerStars Game #57081967095: Tournament #360758765, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/02/03 23:59:48 ET
    Table '360758765 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
    Seat 1: JJExpre$$ (1620 in chips)
    Seat 3: scoop1924 (1670 in chips)
    Seat 4: noone2k (1380 in chips)
    Seat 5: 3ll!0tt (1450 in chips)
    Seat 6: magnatIk777 (1470 in chips)
    Seat 7: alyjaicar (3410 in chips)
    Seat 8: bigdawgwins (1180 in chips)
    Seat 9: MFKtrain90 (1320 in chips)
    3ll!0tt: posts small blind 15
    magnatIk777: posts big blind 30
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to MFKtrain90 [Jd 9d]
    alyjaicar: calls 30
    bigdawgwins: folds
    MFKtrain90: calls 30
    JJExpre$$: folds
    scoop1924: folds
    noone2k: folds
    3ll!0tt: calls 15
    magnatIk777: checks
    *** FLOP *** [Js 7c Qh]
    3ll!0tt: checks
    magnatIk777: checks
    alyjaicar: checks
    MFKtrain90: bets 120
    3ll!0tt: folds
    magnatIk777: folds
    alyjaicar: folds
    Uncalled bet (120) returned to MFKtrain90
    MFKtrain90 collected 120 from pot
    MFKtrain90: doesn't show hand
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 120 | Rake 0
    Board [Js 7c Qh]
    Seat 1: JJExpre$$ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: scoop1924 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: noone2k (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: 3ll!0tt (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 6: magnatIk777 (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 7: alyjaicar folded on the Flop
    Seat 8: bigdawgwins folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: MFKtrain90 collected (120)
  17. #17
    okay so was i in the wrong pushing here? or was this the right move for the situation?


    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.2 Tournament, 75/150 Blinds (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    UTG (t1590)
    MP (t1640)
    CO (t3685)
    Button (t3565)
    SB (t2425)
    Hero (BB) (t595)

    Hero's M: 2.64

    Preflop: Hero is BB with 6, 6
    UTG calls t150, 3 folds, SB calls t75, Hero bets t595 (All-In), UTG calls t445, 1 fold

    Flop: (t1340) 7, K, J (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Turn: (t1340) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

    River: (t1340) K (2 players, 1 all-in)

    Total pot: t1340
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    okay so was i in the wrong pushing here? or was this the right move for the situation?
    Pretty standard I think. You have 4BB and can't afford to wait any longer. Just get it in with anything with value! If you fold here you won't have enough fold equity to make anyone fold in future hands.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    okay did i just make the right play? i mean it paid off, but im not sure that it was the right play or if i should have even been in the hand.
    Do yourself a favour and fold J9s from an EP. It's a hand that could have bad implied odds, you will likely have to play the hand OOP. These aren't good spots to be in in a SNG. Early in a SNG I tend to fold J9 from pretty much every spot unless I get a free look at the flop in the BB or I can complete in SB if there are a number of limpers.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakamura View Post
    Do yourself a favour and fold J9s from an EP. It's a hand that could have bad implied odds, you will likely have to play the hand OOP. These aren't good spots to be in in a SNG. Early in a SNG I tend to fold J9 from pretty much every spot unless I get a free look at the flop in the BB or I can complete in SB if there are a number of limpers.
    okay thanks, ill remember that for sure.


    and just finished first in that tourney!!
  21. #21
    Sorry I'm late to this thread. Regarding the 66 hand, I think that's fine. You'd be surprised how often you get folds from both players in spots like these.
  22. #22
    yeah i was figuring at that point in the tourney they would just fold around if they didnt have it. i thought this cause im a tight player and it was the first hand i had played in like 20 minutes. so any decent player that had been watching should realize, "oh he has been playing really tight and now hes pushing so he probably has me beat." thats why i hate fish. they will call. i need to get to some higher stakes. need to just grind it out and get to where i can financially play them
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    yeah i was figuring at that point in the tourney they would just fold around if they didnt have it. i thought this cause im a tight player and it was the first hand i had played in like 20 minutes. so any decent player that had been watching should realize, "oh he has been playing really tight and now hes pushing so he probably has me beat." thats why i hate fish. they will call. i need to get to some higher stakes. need to just grind it out and get to where i can financially play them
    Couple of things:

    - Don't expect any player at low stakes to be watching what you are doing. If they are a reg and they are multitabling they may have HUD stats on you, but in general it is a wrong assumption that any player will be looking at anything more than their own two cards.

    - It is a fallacy that higher stakes are easier. Sure, you may get less calltards and fish, but you'll get far more tight/aggressive players who may fold more but will be harder to win money from. I love playing against bad players even though they may suck out on me from time to time. If they are making bad calls you will definitely win money off them in the long run.
  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by taipan168 View Post
    Couple of things:

    - Don't expect any player at low stakes to be watching what you are doing. If they are a reg and they are multitabling they may have HUD stats on you, but in general it is a wrong assumption that any player will be looking at anything more than their own two cards.

    - It is a fallacy that higher stakes are easier. Sure, you may get less calltards and fish, but you'll get far more tight/aggressive players who may fold more but will be harder to win money from. I love playing against bad players even though they may suck out on me from time to time. If they are making bad calls you will definitely win money off them in the long run.


    see thats where i differ (not saying im a reg or a pretty good player) but i dont play with a HUD and when im multitabling (2-4 tables for now) i still notice when someone is very tight, situation loose, or pure donk. but i understand that by multi tabling you mean a much higher number. ive always been a live game player, just recently got really into online.

    And i understand that about higher stakes, but thats how i want it to be. I would much rather play players that are tight/aggressive right now. i went on a hard tilt when i hit $15 and in all of the games it was a fish calling with A-Jx os and i always had the best hand except for 2 games where it was AA and KK against my KK and QQ. but honestly i blame it on myself for just getting mad at the end of a game because a fish sucked out on me. i would usually be calm for the second half of the game but still play very tight through the first half. again, i dont really expect to sound like an experienced player. i am just trying to explain it in the only way that i know how to at this point.

    thank you though, like i said, all input is great input and i will listen to what you are saying for sure.
  25. #25
    I agree with Taipan here. It feels easier to play against regs because they are generally more predictable in their plays. The fish can be unpredictable and will call with hands like 85s, you get stacked holding AA on a 467 flop. The thing is, they also stack off on 892 flops and make a series of large mistakes that good regs will seldom make.

    I specifically look for tables without regs because over thousands of games I have learned playing with regs affects my own win-rate.

    It's definitely also a fallacy that moving up the stakes, the games become easier. One look at most players' graphs will confirm that ROI generally drops off as they progress up the stakes.
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    I would much rather play players that are tight/aggressive right now.
    It may be more satisfying to play against players who are, as Naka said, more predictable, but honestly I'd rather play against players against whom I can win more money.
  27. #27
    While it may be entertaining and educational to sit at a table with the likes of Taipan, Nakamura, Fully, and many other regs who have spent countless hours learning and teaching this game, I have a sneaky suspicion it will not be very profitable.

    I am in this to win money, so give me a table full of first graders gambling with their lunch money.
  28. #28
    i want to get into these higher stakes and play these better players until im a better player tbh. i hate playing fish right now because i keep letting it bother me and i go on tilt. i lose a good bit of money. and then i let it bother me more.
  29. #29
    Just my last two cents worth. Been there done that and bought the shirt.

    I made weekly deposits for 5 years. More for entertainment than to make money but none the less. I started making money when I put forth the effort to listen and learn. If tilt is ur problem its not going to change because Mr pro cracked ur AA with trip 7's instead of Mr. Donk cracking them with 7 2 off.

    I decided to start playing SNG's in Dec trying to make my cash last longer. I got lucky breaking every rule in the book and then I crashed the first of Jan. That's when I joined FTR and started to read listen and learn. I broke even the rest of Jan. However, the first week of Feb my roi 50.4% after 105 tourneys. I can't believe the difference in my game and the ability to control my emotions because I listened and learned from those who have been there done that. Yes I am on a heater but I wouldn't been able to see it if I hadn't put forth the effort.

    Just a side note: last night playing in an 10+1 because I am now rolled for that, I watched the btn call an AI from both the UTG and the CO. Both the UTG and the CO turned overAKs, the BTN turned over Q3o and won with a pair of Q's. The Donks don't go away at higher limits there are just fewer of them.
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ktrain90 View Post
    i hate playing fish right now because i keep letting it bother me and i go on tilt. i lose a good bit of money. and then i let it bother me more.
    This is the issue, not the fact that the level you're playing at is too low.

    If you haven't already, read this post that is stickied in the BC (it's from a decent book on the subject called The Poker Mindset).

    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...97.html#576017
  31. #31
    The most profitable thing I ever did is learn to control my emotions at the poker table. I get in the volume I do because I never tilt and don't let bad beats and variance affect my game.

    The best thing I did was listen to a podcast using Zen techniques with regards to poker. Amazingly simple concept, but extremely powerful.

    Ultimately it took me a long time to really understand that bad beats, losing hands and downward swings are actually what make me money at the tables.
    Last edited by Nakamura; 02-09-2011 at 06:49 PM.
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakamura View Post
    Ultimately it took me a long time to really understand that bad beats, losing hands and downward swings are actually what make me money at the tables.

    thats a really good thing for me to hear. i appreciate you guys alot, i really do. ive always known that i have to keep my cool at the table, but i have just been letting them get under my skin. thanks for the link too! i guess i overlooked that sticky. i read through a lot of them but i guess i missed a few. im gunna go ahead and look through them again. at live games, i keep my cool and can do well, but thats because i dont play with many fish, and live fish are easy to kill. i really need to take these next few days to really study the stickies hard because the guy i was talking about staking me said he wants to start on sunday or monday.
    that actually brings up another question, how would you guys compare FTP to PS? ive always played PS online except for a few freerolls on FTP, never played actual cash games on there. and im not talking about the programs themselves really, more along the lines of the players. any difference i should be aware of before getting into this?

    again guys, thanks i really do appreciate it. you guys are helping me more then you know.
  33. #33
    Just finished reading the bad beats thread. im in the acceptance stage, but i have been taking notes on most players that i play with. actually came across a good few of them in later games and it was a helpful thing to do. notes are great. and that link really did help me, even though i claimed to already know, it still helped.
  34. #34
    I've picked up some stuff you guys said here!
    I have a question though. I have this "mental problem" where my mind is set on a x amount of money to reach and after that I go on tilt/downswing.

    Let me explain in numbers
    When I started playing my $1 DONS I was a loosing player then I started reading here on the forum and turned my game around.
    After that I read why normal SNG are better (because your A game can earn you 1st place not just double your money) so I switched to them. So I started playing $1 SNGs first and moved up to $3 when my bankroll allowed me to.
    BUT this is were my problem started earning my first 100 $ was a big WOW for me so as soon I would come near the 100 $ mark I would loose 10-20 $ just to go up again. It took me weeks and even months to get past 100.
    Once I did that I started playing with a whole different confidence and soon I was close to
    200$ on the account and once again my mind started playing me a trick. "Am I really that good, maybe I could start earning myself some extra cash playing" Once again I kept going up and down but never go past the 200 mark on my balance. During that time my major downswing/tilt started where I would loose a lot. I tried everything taking breaks for a few days, weeks but nothing helped. I moved down from $5 to $3 to minimize my losses while I were on my downswing but that didnt help.
    So here I am a few months later with the SAME problem I had before. I tilted/lost during downswing my money below 100 and Im currently playing $3 SNG and my balance keeps jumping from 50-80 but this time 80 is my mental block limit and when ever I reach it I feel like its written that I will go on a downswing down to 50 again.


    THis became a long post and maybe at the wrong place to ( sorry ktrain for hijacking your thread) but I really need help with it. I've tried google but havent found anything like this. MAybe its just tilt and Im to blind to see or accept it. So to sum this long post up , have anyone of you had a "mental balance limit" where you would start loosing everytime you got near. If you did how did you get past it ?

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by adii; 02-13-2011 at 07:44 PM.
  35. #35
    It probably took you weeks and months to get past $78.68 too, and you went past it and back down, and past it and back down. But you didn't care because 78.68 is just some dumb number. Just like 100 or 200.

    Separately, when you move to a different BI level you will face better players, downswings will hurt more and be larger in $ terms (and likely in BI terms as well), and you will probably play scared for a while.
  36. #36
    i actually had that problem playing live games. Sitting at a table with a stack of like 50 for .25-.50 game, i would always be able to build up to about 100, but would start losing quick, get back to like 20, then go back up a little. now at this same table, i would have a balance (kept tabs) of like $75 and from there i started losing, hard. i was at -50 (set my bench marker at the beginning of the month) after playing a few games, but was never able to get back up to where i was, or any higher. as soon as i reach the $50 mark, i would start losing hard again. its all in your head. you are setting goals to be at 100, so when you get close you get anxious and start making bad calls here and there. starts your downswing, and then its just downhill till you catch yourself. online, i decided that my goal is as much as i can get, no more, no less. haha. keep numbers out of it and there wont be that mental block.
  37. #37
    Yeah it is just a stupid number, I'll try to block the numbers out like you said ktrain.
    THanks to both of you !
  38. #38
    for sure man! and no worries about "taking over my topic" makes for good discussion. continue doing it if you'd like haha.
  39. #39
    Sorry to jump in late here, but I want to backtrack the thread a little. I'm not sold on the "little games with bad players is better than the bigger games with better players" philosophy. I read an article in a poker magazine recently, but I'm not sure which one. It didn't address this issue directly, but it does make you think about it.

    The author argued that you should not think of bad players as "fish" or "donkeys". The guy who limps UTG then calls a 3-bet all-in preflop with A7s and cracks your KK is a "Zombie".

    Think about any zombie movie you've ever seen. Zombies are slow, dumb, predictable, and easily out maneuvered. A quick shot to the head will take them out effortlessly.

    But, then what happens? Eventually, the hero, or one of his friends, will inadvertently step into a room, or back into a corner and suddenly be faced with 50 zombies. He doesn't have enough bullets, or enough places to run, and eventually, the lumbering mass of brain-thirsty zombies overruns the hero.

    Yeah, you want to play bad players because you'll be in so many +EV situations. But you will lose some of the time. Even if you get your chips in as a 2 to 1 favorite or better, EVERY time, you're still going to get stacked 1/3 of the time. So the more zombies there are in the game, the more you have to dodge and get lucky on your way to a win.

    In MTT's, my strategy is to try and build a stack early. I mostly play live, at a card room in a rural town. So I'm playing the same zombies over and over again, so I have good reads that allows me to play super-agressive and build chips early. This allows me to take the 2 to 1 gamble and stay alive even if I lose.

    In SNG's where the optimal strategy is to play tight early, you don't necessarily accumulate chips early, and have to rely on those big +EV situations in the middle and late stages to try and double up. So, in that situation, your skill and +EV are negated because you WILL lose some of those races, even when you're a big favorite.

    In conclusion, I want fewer zombies in the game. I would rather get my chips in two or three times when I'm a 5 to 4 favorite, as opposed to getting my chips in five or six times when I'm a 2 to 1 favorite.
  40. #40
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    ^^^ this makes very little sense. you need to really rethink your logic. when i have time i can hopefully shed some light on all your errors of thinking.
  41. #41
    Maybe it doesn't make sense. I'm not gonna pretend like I'm an expert or anything. But I think the last sentence makes sense.

    Which is easier to win 2-3 hands where you're a 5-4 favorite, or five or six when you're a 2 to 1 favorite?

    It seems to me that with better competition you will most likely be able to steal more, and your 3-bets will get more respect. At least initially.

    When you look at an individual hand, then yes, I want my oppenent to call with QT out of position and I'll accept it when he stacks my AA when he flops Q85 and then rivers a Ten. That's fine, over the course of a tournament, you will be getting your chips in more than once. Even if I'm a 2 to 1 favorite, if I get my chips in three times, I'm going to lose one of those, and when I do, I'm finished.

    So, what I'm saying is, it's not enough to get your chips in good. Your hand also has to stand up. And it's just not going to happen 3 out of 3 times, or 5 out of 6 times on average.

    So, wouldn't you be better off if you were in a game where there were LESS of those situations.
  42. #42
    Ghaleon, you are equating good players to being weak-tight. There are a few articles in this forum about donks making better plays than players that are weak-tight. In fact they'll often make calls or shoves that only better players will do as well.

    The issue is they don't control their aggression and make huge mistakes along the way which are exploitable.

    The best SNG players know this fact well and is precisely the reason they generally practice reg avoidance. Have these guys all got it wrong?

    Much of what you are saying has more relevance to MTTs, but given the choice between playing regulars who know rough shoving and calling ranges and a bunch a idiots, who do not, I'm going to pick the latter every time. You just have such a big advantage during the end-game, which is where the real money is.
    Last edited by Nakamura; 02-16-2011 at 02:13 PM.
  43. #43
    But it makes sense to me, in the sense that if you cant make it to the end-game where the real money is because you have AKs preflop and 3bet cause of position and you get someone that calls. flop hits, you have top pair top kicker, so you pot bet, they call. turn comes, they check you cbet and they STILL CALL. well, youre AKs is about to get beat by a Q7os cause some donk is call happy and catches 2 pair on the river. you would have a better chance (in my mind, again, i dont want to sound like i know what im talking about, really im saying all of this so someone can prove me wrong) with regs cause they would realize they are beaten when youre cbetting through the hand. they would (hopefully) realize that they are beat and fold the hand, resulting in a bit of a chip change for you depending on when they folded said hand. but, if you get called down by a donk while you are playing an weak-tight all game till you get a hand, like said AKs, and get sucked out on just cause they dont realize that they are stomped.

    but thats poker for ya. i really need to read up on dealing with donks in these games. cause i must not be doing it right.
  44. #44
    I don't know Ktrain, it's you and me against the world on this one.

    It was mentioned that my thinking relates better to MTT's where you have to get your chips in and win MULTIPLE times before you even get to the end game. I think definitely in that situation you want to play LESS all-ins even if it means you're smaller favorite when you do.

    It also seems to me that there are alot of nuances that make the difference between very sucessful poker players and even average ones. One of those is reading your opponents based on their tendencies and history. Another is managing your play based on what you think to be your own table image. Math. Memory. Reading tells. Managing your own tells. And much much more.

    If you're playing against idiots, donkeys, zombies, fish, whatever...all of that gets negated. They don't pay attention to your table image. They don't care about the math. They gamble in frustrating spots, and lots of other things that just don't happen in a competitive game.

    I think there is a reason that pros play with other pros. It's more than just the fact that they are bankrolled for it. I mean, a pro plays with the same players so often, that the other skilled players probably have solid reads on them. I would think that this would be a big disadvantage. Yet, they all keep showing up at the same table, over and over and over again. You would think, with the thinking that's been presented here, that these players would seek out smaller games where most of their opponents are unknown to them but are likely to be much worse players.
  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghaleon View Post
    I don't know Ktrain, it's you and me against the world on this one....

    ....If you're playing against idiots, donkeys, zombies, fish, whatever...all of that gets negated. They don't pay attention to your table image. They don't care about the math. They gamble in frustrating spots, and lots of other things that just don't happen in a competitive game....
    thats my exact point to wanting to be at higher stakes. but even there, with online alot of people dont pay attention to table image, all they see are stats, maybe. but still, stats are better then nothing, they will make better plays. sure, its harder to get money out of them at higher stakes, but at the same time, you are less likely to get called down with Q7os when you 3bet preflop and cbet the flop+.

    if i had a choice, i would much rather be playing live games purely cause im all about table image.
  46. #46
    So hold on, let me see I got this straight. You don't want to be playing against a player who limps calls a 3-bet with Q7o and calls down with top pair? Can you please send them them my way? Thanks.
  47. #47
    Maybe I need to be asking this question a different way.

    "How do I improve my game if I'm playing against bad players?"

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the tournament has alot of bad players, the correct strategy is to play tight/agressive, look for good +EV spots, and make your play. This should generate profit in the long run, because you're getting your chips in good way more often than you might against someone tougher. However, the catch is that your variance will fluctuate alot more because you'll get called alot when a better player should have folded. So the only other requisite skill is to control tilt. Eveything else such as table image, stats, reads, tendencies, etc are either diminished or non existent in the fishy games.

    This brings me to the subject of "idle practice". I can go to a bowling alley and throw 10,000 balls down the lane and be the exact same bowler I was when I showed up.

    If I play $2 SNG's, and then look at my hand history, sometimes I find small leaks that I can fix or whatever, but nothing showstopping. Ultimately, I find the times I lose the most chips are unavoidable situations where my opponent got lucky. However, when I review hands after playing $20 SNGs, I find alot more to work on. I find that I missed reads. I find that, what originally looked like my opponent makign a bad call, was actually his reaction to my table image, which I didn't consider at the time. There are lots of other things, and I don't need to list them all, you know what they are.

    So. How do you improve if you're not challenged?
  48. #48
    You are asking two different questions. You are implying ROI is higher at $20 games because opponents play more predictably. Play 10k of games at each and see where your ROI is higher.

    The second is about improving your game. You are finding more to think about at a $20 game because opponents are adjusting to us and our range. We can think on a higher level because our opponents are. It doesn't mean we are playing any better than we were at $2 games, it just means we are adapting our game so we play better against a $20 opponent.
  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakamura View Post
    So hold on, let me see I got this straight. You don't want to be playing against a player who limps calls a 3-bet with Q7o and calls down with top pair? Can you please send them them my way? Thanks.
    and this proves to me that nobody pays much attention to what i say. dont worry though im used to it. a few posts back i used the Q7os example, thats what i was referring back too. how you got top pair, i do not know.



    also, i have been saying i wanna play higher stakes, cause i need to adapt and play better, or however you stated it. if i can adapt and see what it means to play these better players, i will understand what you guys are saying about these fish. ive said this time and time again.
  50. #50
    WOW, the many post and the great advice these people have given you to PROTECT YOU FROM YOURSELF, and you are going to act like that? Might I suggest that you talk to the guy who is supposed to stake you. Maybe his advice will be what you want to hear.

    Next, I appreciate every bit of advice I get from these fine people, and I take offense to those that show disrespect for that free advice. So please don't do it anymore.
  51. #51
    where was the disrespect? i merely stated that he didnt see my post about the Q7os example that he but referred to the second time i mentioned it, referring back to the first example. and not many people pay attention to what i say, ive accepted this.

    then, i reinstated what i have been saying time and time again, how is this disrespectful. but to those of you that have been giving me this advice, if it came off as disrespectful, it was unintended.

    rivermonster, have you missed the many times i have said i appreciate their advice? because that puts the nail in the coffin on people not paying attention to things i say.

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