Let's get personal with 180 turbos

See cliff notes if tl/dr.
I am currently grinding the $12 180 turbos on Stars. What I have found with these is that variance is brutal to say the least. What I'm not certain of is whether variance in these is huge because of the nature of them, facing all ins quite often due to the quick blind increase, or if I am shoving too wide of a range at times.

I have wiz and I try to review my play as often as possible. I don't normally see too many spots that I am not playing well, but this could be due to me trying to make my bad plays appear to be good plays by changing the ranges of the players.

My style is fairly nitty throughout the tournament. I find that I am normally either 10M or have a 10bb stack. In addition, the players left to act are either 10M or 10bbs. Therefore, stealing blinds becomes less frequent than in normal tournaments and I am looking for hands that I can felt. Of course I'm shoving fairly wide on 10bb stacks regardless.

Currently, I am experiencing a nasty downswing and I am trying to figure out if its me or just the nature of the beast. My bet is that it's probably a little bit of both. I have watched the play of some of the best grinders in these like z 0 0 t s and jitterbug777 and I think that the key is exceptional push/fold game. These guys are 30% ROI in 180s.

I'd like to get a conversation going about what the optimal strategy is for the 180 turbos. Questions like, what are you doing with hands like small to medium pps and AQ from ep early in the tournament? Or, depending upon the blinds' ranges, what are you shoving when 10bbs CO+? Are you shoving over weak limpers when in lp or from the blinds? What key concepts do you know and find to be beneficial for being successful in these?

Cliff notes:
Tell me what you know to be helpful for being successful in the 180 turbos.
Variance is a bitch.

I'll start, I have found that when 10bbs and there are no antes, your shove range should not be that wide. You still shove almost any two from sb when folded to, but from button it is not quite as wide. I believe that the reasoning is that antes make it more profitable to shove with a wider range.

Small fields + bad structure = low winrates. Low winrates = high variance. That's really all there is to it.

By all means post hands if you're afraid you're misplaying them though.

Yes, I plan to post hands. If low winrates = high variance, then how does one sustain a 30% ROI in these? I'm assuming that volume plays a part.

30% isn't that high of a winrate to begin with. If you're only doing 15-20% you're in for some big swings.

Ok, well maybe the question that I should be asking is what to play? I am playing the 180s due to lack of time throughout the week because of FT job. Maybe my time would be better spent playing the 45s or STTs. I have an ok ROI for the year in the 45s which is ~40%.

If you're not a spewtard like me, play cash.

I'm spewtastic when it comes to cash. Plus it's boring.

Originally Posted by chardrian

play cash.

What I was thinking.

20% ROI is like $3, so what's your hourly rate? You should be able to do $10/hr 4 tabling 25NL6max.

I find it hard to believe the best players only have 30% ROI in these things.

I'm going to grind out a fair amount of them this week, I'll have a report for you.

werd

check out z 0 0 t s
http://www.officialpokerrankings.com...A281F.html?t=2

I've played a ton of the $2.20's (not something I love to admit but I was learning push/fold MTTs and they seemed like the best place to start).

My game plan is v tight early but if I see any edge at all to take it. I mean, 10 of these run an hour so I'm all about trying to amass a large stack v v early. Once the 4th level comes it's time to go big or go home, I'm not a huge fan of having 6-10K chips nearing the bubble (lol who isn't tho right) b/c it's a spot where it's pretty much impossible to accumulate chips so you end up just limping into the money only to have a 16-18 finish.

I had a 67% ROI in these in November over 220+ tournaments (only month I have ever played them) and feel like 35-40% is attainable in the 12s after playing just a few the other night, granted I've been sick and not playing and that I won one

From Oct. to mid Nov. I ran sick in the $12 and made about $1200. Then we had a financial emergency at home and I had to take out $1k. The withdraw doom switch caused me to go on a fairly bad downswing that consisted of losing ~$500. I play about 20 tables at a time so I have to play like a nit. Bad beat after bad beat will drive you crazy.

I believe that you can sustain a 40% ROI but you have to play a decent amount. Most of the guys that destroy these are fairly tight players and play a ton at one time. They rely on their short stack play and their hands holding up.

This is the third time this year that I went really hot to really cold in these. You will experience drastic downswings playing these.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Once the 4th level comes it's time to go big or go home, I'm not a huge fan of having 6-10K chips nearing the bubble (lol who isn't tho right) b/c it's a spot where it's pretty much impossible to accumulate chips so you end up just limping into the money only to have a 16-18 finish.

Can you elaborate a little more on this ^^? I think that I might be waiting too late to get busy.

I mean I just feel like if you get to the 5th level (75/150) and you haven't done much that's a big error b/c I don't care how good your push/fold game is you stand little chance of navigating through the mine field.

I don't mind having a bunch for 140-180 finishes b/c I accumulate 5-6k early (first 20 minutes) a lot as well, allowing me to play deeper-stacked against the luckboxes who god-moded their way to that point in the tournament. I usually go deep/win in just this way, I accumulate 5-6k chips, a fish donates his 5-6k stack to me, I then get to chip-up in the next 20 then rape the bubble.

I don't play these so I might be wrong, but I mean stars structure sucks in general, so I can't imagine these being any good at all. Why don't you just play the standard 180 mans - the structure is still bad but the players are even worse so it makes up for it.

I get home around 6pm and I have to hit the sack around 10pm. Not leaving me with a hole lot of time. So I need to find something that I can grind that will rack up the cash and the FPP/VIPs. The normal 180s take about 4 hours if you make it to the FT. Plus they take forever to fill-up.

yea the normals take forever. Structure sucks in the turbos but you can run 10-12 an hour easy at the $12 level. If you figure 2hour to complete the set at 30% ROI that's $18/hr. If you run every one for 2 hours (lets say 20 of them) and that takes 3 hours to complete at 30% ROI that's $24/hr.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I mean I just feel like if you get to the 5th level (75/150) and you haven't done much that's a big error b/c I don't care how good your push/fold game is you stand little chance of navigating through the mine field.

I don't mind having a bunch for 140-180 finishes b/c I accumulate 5-6k early (first 20 minutes) a lot as well, allowing me to play deeper-stacked against the luckboxes who god-moded their way to that point in the tournament. I usually go deep/win in just this way, I accumulate 5-6k chips, a fish donates his 5-6k stack to me, I then get to chip-up in the next 20 then rape the bubble.

Are you saying that you are seeing a lot of flops with marginal hands early or just playing your big hands hard? I know that some say that amassing a big stack early does not guarantee going deep. But, I do agree that you need something to absorb the beats that you will take late. There has to be another way to accumulate chips since stealing opportunities in these are not that frequent.

I'm not going out of my way to see a flop with a marginal hand, but if I have position on a fish with a big stack I might.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

I believe that you can sustain a 40% ROI but you have to play a decent amount.

I don't understand what this means. How does increasing your sample size increase your expectation per tournament?

Originally Posted by chardrian

I don't play these so I might be wrong, but I mean stars structure sucks in general, so I can't imagine these being any good at all. Why don't you just play the standard 180 mans - the structure is still bad but the players are even worse so it makes up for it

Regular 180 mans take forever to fill up. It's not even possible to make consistent money just playing those, but it's very possible in the turbos. If you play 30 of them per session with a 25% ROI then you're already making a decent amount of money, although if you can do that you might want to set your sights on bigger and better things.

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Originally Posted by Sprayed

I believe that you can sustain a 40% ROI but you have to play a decent amount.

I don't understand what this means. How does increasing your sample size increase your expectation per tournament?

Originally Posted by chardrian

I don't play these so I might be wrong, but I mean stars structure sucks in general, so I can't imagine these being any good at all. Why don't you just play the standard 180 mans - the structure is still bad but the players are even worse so it makes up for it

Regular 180 mans take forever to fill up. It's not even possible to make consistent money just playing those, but it's very possible in the turbos. If you play 30 of them per session with a 25% ROI then you're already making a decent amount of money, although if you can do that you might want to set your sights on bigger and better things.

I guess I was trying to say what you just said. Plus I thought that it sounded good at the time. Throw me a bone mcat, what would you suggest that someone like myself that has only 3-4 hours each day M-F, spend their time grinding if there are better games than the 180s?

the 11.70 DS to the sunday mil is a good place to start. I'm sure mcat will say the same.

There's nothing wrong with using them as a screen filler, I'll play 3-4 tournaments and a bunch of $12 turbos. It also helps me from spewing/getting bored.

Guess I need to start including the $11DS's as well

Originally Posted by Bbickes

the 11.70 DS to the sunday mil is a good place to start. I'm sure mcat will say the same.

Yeah these are terrific. My ROI in them was about 80% back when I played them, with a sample size of a few hundred.

Only problem is the regular speed ones last forever. I've had them last up to 3.5 hours which doesn't help Sprayed's problem of not having enough time.

I guess cash or sngs. I could give the the turbo DSes a shot.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

I guess I was trying to say what you just said. Plus I thought that it sounded good at the time. Throw me a bone mcat, what would you suggest that someone like myself that has only 3-4 hours each day M-F, spend their time grinding if there are better games than the 180s?

Well I'd first suggest getting your BR up to the point where those "better games" are an option for you.

Once you've done that, I'd recommend the $26 90 man knockout SNGs on FTP, any satellites to the Sunday Million, and all the super satellites to live events (e.g. the $22 satellite to the $650 PCA qualifier) as all being better options than the $12/180s. As spenda said, nothing wrong with using the $12s as screen space filler.

Running a $3500 roll right now. Just enough to play $17 MTTs, $50 SNGs, and probably $50-$100NL. Need to find the best game to grind. Because obv. I can't play those that you mention right now. I'll give the 180s a break and try cash for a while.

Try the $14, 300-chip super turbos on FT. Sometimes they end in like 10 mins. they're hilarious because you'll still see people open-limp UTG with K4s, complete the SB with 125 chips left, call all-ins with K9o,etc.

No monies on FT currently. Stars junky.

Originally Posted by jdude

With the 180 tournaments on Stars you really get all kinds of players. People seem to go all in with any pretty good hand. I was very annoyed the other day. I might have been a little too agressive, but I had AK and pushed all in at the final table, while I was the chip leader. The 2nd highest stack called with A 9 suited, and a 9 hit on the flop. A 9 suited is a good hand, but I do not think a player with the 2nd highest chip stack should have gone all in. With me being the highest chip stack, I might not have wanted to go all in, but I did not expect anyone to call.

If you didn't want a call, then why did you go all in? Thankfully you were called by a worse hand which is what you want.

I'm in the midst of a small downswing in these, variance is huge, however I'm still positive 30-40% ROI is attainable. I'll report back when I've played 100 more, hopefully that's by the end of next week.

I've experienced several downswings in the $12's. Just 24 table them and push/fold the shit out of them. I've noticed a lot of players are multying the 180s, 90s, and 45s at the same time and getting 24 tables up at one time. Playing the 90s/45s might balance out the variance. No?

I'm getting into these as well. Playing 45, 90, 180 mans at the same time, while focusing on larger 10 and 20 dollar tournaments and using turbos to fill up space. Not much of a sample size at the moment.

I find that if I just play one table or stick to one type of tournament I get bored. Maybe we should have a little ROI competition for the 180 turbos for the month of January.

Originally Posted by sk8r_daniel

I'm getting into these as well. Playing 45, 90, 180 mans at the same time, while focusing on larger 10 and 20 dollar tournaments and using turbos to fill up space. Not much of a sample size at the moment.

I find that if I just play one table or stick to one type of tournament I get bored. Maybe we should have a little ROI competition for the 180 turbos for the month of January.

That's cool. Just make sure that you are playing with at least 200 buy-ins. Variance will kick your ass especially in the 180s. Some will say that 100 will do, but I disagree. I have found that you can easily go on a 20 or more buy-in downswing.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

I've experienced several downswings in the $12's. Just 24 table them and push/fold the shit out of them. I've noticed a lot of players are multying the 180s, 90s, and 45s at the same time and getting 24 tables up at one time. Playing the 90s/45s might balance out the variance. No?

Yea I was just made aware of the 90-mans yesterday

looks like today is a long day of 90man/180man/sundaymillsats

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhthevariance

In terms of BR I say 150 buy-ins is probably a solid roll. I'm at the most 12-tabling, I don't trust my push-fold game yet and I'm also playing tournies at the same time.

alirhgt I think I've played 10 of these today

just got 4th in one, to me the key is like with 35-40 people left, I'm not quite sure what the key is yet, but I think that's where I need to improve.

I haven't played a ton of these... probably 100 or so... of the $36 mainly and occasionally other levels. I was at 105% ROI according to that site you looked up Zoots. (under g121212) I really think when there is 35-40 people left you want to be in the top 5. Nows the time to gamble with an above average stack even if you have him outchipped. Usually around 10k in chips is average at this point maybe a little above, and you want to get 20k and let the stealing against the average stacks begin.

I tried to 24 a bunch today with AHK scripts and got butt raped. The stars assistant was set to activate urgent tables and it kept taking me to all in situations. Needless to say this was like every hand since I was playing said turbos. I busted out pretty quickly. I monied a 180 but got donkified and went out 16th. Currently in the 200K and in the money, so I got that going for me which is nice.

I would bet your ROI 12-tabling is double 24 at the least

you're missing out on a lot of profitable situations spraved

alright I think I risked $300 today, overall a +$117 day grinding these bad boys

3-4 first level cashes in 180mans
4th in $12 180man
5th in $12 90man
mid-level cash in the $10k gtd

starting to appreciate the variance more so hopefully I won't be IM'ing everyone "sick" beats that are just lol-standard.

You are probably right. I just played another 24 and finished 6th twice in 2 45s and 3rd in a 180. I also finished 3300 out of 22000 in the 200k guarantee which was in the money for a large sum of $33. What happens is that since I have so many tables going, I don't realize that I'm at a final table and I don't factor for ICM and make some dumb shoves. The other thing that is difficult is adjusting to the blind structure of the 90 mans when multying. Since I played so many tourneys today, I basically broke even.

I want to make platinum each month and rack up 50k FPPs. Multying these probably aren't the answer. The last two weeks I was 24 tabling 50NL and getting my ass kicked to nits. I am currently platinum but at a cost of roughly -$1000. Playing too many tables -EV for me right now. Maybe I should go out and purchase a game controller and try spooni's AHK.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Playing too many tables -EV for me right now. Maybe I should go out and purchase a game controller and try spooni's AHK.

Or learn to play poker

omg dude you were 24tsbling cash?

and you wonder why you sucked at it?

also, any thoughts on the Sunday mill 11.70 sats will be greatly appreciated

I tried a few today but my push fold game isn't as good as it should be. I got down to 11 in one of them when I called all in with AA and QQ caught third Q on river...blah blah would have been chip leader so I gave up and went back to 10min blinds and won one of those. I'm eagerly waiting my kill phil and kill everyone books....

I'm getting really tired of my usual grind, so I wanna try this.

I pretty much just play cash games right now, and I can play 10-12 tables shortstacked, 8-10 half stacked, and 6-8 full stacked.
I base that partially on results and partially on how much attention each type of play requires.

In a turbo sng, I figure you'll be playing more tables at the start of a session, and as the play becomes more important (toward the end) you'll have less tables running. I can barely imagine running 24 tables at a time at all, but if half are gone by the half way point, and half of what's left is gone by the bubble, I can see this working. How many tables do you guys play? How many tables are left at key points in the tourney?

Originally Posted by swiggidy

Originally Posted by Sprayed

Playing too many tables -EV for me right now. Maybe I should go out and purchase a game controller and try spooni's AHK.

Or learn to play poker

You seem to pop up at the most opportune time.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

also, any thoughts on the Sunday mill 11.70 sats will be greatly appreciated

You know, I don't think that I have ever played those. I'll have to take a look at them.

Originally Posted by dev

I'm getting really tired of my usual grind, so I wanna try this.

I pretty much just play cash games right now, and I can play 10-12 tables shortstacked, 8-10 half stacked, and 6-8 full stacked.
I base that partially on results and partially on how much attention each type of play requires.

In a turbo sng, I figure you'll be playing more tables at the start of a session, and as the play becomes more important (toward the end) you'll have less tables running. I can barely imagine running 24 tables at a time at all, but if half are gone by the half way point, and half of what's left is gone by the bubble, I can see this working. How many tables do you guys play? How many tables are left at key points in the tourney?

When I multi turbo STTs, it turns into pushing and folding situations. So basically, if you have a script running you can just hit two buttons. All you have to do is pay attention to your chip position at the table. There are a lot of players 24 tabling the double or nothings because all they have to do is make sure that their chip stack is in the top 5 and fold the majority of the time.

In multi SNGs like the 180s, it's pretty much the same thing as far as pushing and folding. When multi-ing these, I shove any two on the button and almost any two in the CO when folded to when <10bbs and antes are in play. When no antes, I'm shoving pps, scs, broadways. I'm also shoving wide over limpers from lp and from the blinds when ~15bbs or 10M. Oh, and any two in the sb when folded to as well.

FT is a little different. I play an STT game at the FT and apply ICM.

Originally Posted by Sprayed

There are a lot of players 24 tabling the double or nothings because all they have to do is make sure that their chip stack is in the top 5 and fold the majority of the time.

Yes, but what do YOU do?

I'm interested in how you're affected by multitabling as the sngs progress. Suppose you enter 24 at once, then you're still in 20 of them when they start approaching the bubble. Your play HAS to deteriorate some.

Also, spenda mentioned playing fairly agro early on, so optimal strategy might not be nitville early on.

OK, here's my strategy in the 180mans

Early, I'm willing to take flips, get it in 3way with 30% equity, etc... Basically I put a lot more stock in my big-stack and late push/fold play than nitting it up early and watching myself go into push/fold mode 4 blind levels in.

Then, around 40 people left I am very willing to take a flip with another 8-10k stack looking to get around 15-20k chips with like 3-4 tables left. From there I hope my table isn't the loosest ever b/c I'm planning on raping the bubble.

If I'm short I'm either going crazy or if I have that middle ground stack around the bubble (like 7-12k) I'm typically securing my spot in the money unless I have a nice edge to push near the bubble.

Originally Posted by dev

Originally Posted by Sprayed

There are a lot of players 24 tabling the double or nothings because all they have to do is make sure that their chip stack is in the top 5 and fold the majority of the time.

Yes, but what do YOU do?

I'm interested in how you're affected by multitabling as the sngs progress. Suppose you enter 24 at once, then you're still in 20 of them when they start approaching the bubble. Your play HAS to deteriorate some.

Also, spenda mentioned playing fairly agro early on, so optimal strategy might not be nitville early on.

I think that you can play either way. If you multi you almost have to nit it up. Aggro early works as well but you won't be able to play as many tables. I will take gambles like getting my chips in with AK and QQ preflop when at the 10/20 level.

I think that spenda hit it on the head. Middle late play is where it's at. You have to double-up at some point before the break. Normally the bubble occurs right before or just after the break. You have to work at staying ahead of the blinds throughout the tourney. That's why I am shoving every opp. I get.

As for me, I'm still learning mass tabling. 12 tables is a breeze and if they all went to final table, I would have no problem. But yes your play will deteriorate as you add tables.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

OK, here's my strategy in the 180mans

Early, I'm willing to take flips, get it in 3way with 30% equity, etc... Basically I put a lot more stock in my big-stack and late push/fold play than nitting it up early and watching myself go into push/fold mode 4 blind levels in.

Then, around 40 people left I am very willing to take a flip with another 8-10k stack looking to get around 15-20k chips with like 3-4 tables left. From there I hope my table isn't the loosest ever b/c I'm planning on raping the bubble.

If I'm short I'm either going crazy or if I have that middle ground stack around the bubble (like 7-12k) I'm typically securing my spot in the money unless I have a nice edge to push near the bubble.

Would it be safe to say that due to the turboness that you should take advantage of every +EV opp.? In other words, don't miss a push or resteal. Maybe in slower moving tourneys you can pass on a few marginal spots. But in a turbo you have to stay ahead of the blinds which means taking flips.

I guess use every arsena to its fullest.
- Shove from CO+ when 10bbs almost no matter what (when antes are in play this is a must).
- Resteal shove when 10M
- Abuse both bubbles (shove on shorties, reshove when you have reshove stack)
- Shove over limpers when 10M when in lp or blinds.
- Always shove any two from sb when 10bbs (when antes hit you can shove wide range when 10M).
- When you get to the FT, I play an SNG ICM style. I think that this is important. You will see 2-3 very short stacks that folded their way to the FT. Don't take unnecessary risks before they bust.

perhaps this guy should post in this thread

e4e5nf3nc6

Sharkscope has him with a star.

woot, finished a 24 session:

180 - 2nd for $396,
45 - 2nd for $110, 3rd for $77, 5th for $44, 6th for $33, 6th for $33, 7th for $22

+$427

Can't seem to figure out the 90 man.

Cashed 5 out of 15 yesterday, 4 for $24 and a 6th

gotta win that 35k chip flip!!

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Cashed 5 out of 15 yesterday, 4 for $24 and a 6th

gotta win that 35k chip flip!!

I always have a couple of these that make me think what if. It seems like AK is always < any trash that donkey calls with when on FT bubble.

Played 45 tourneys of a mixture of 45s and 180s between yesterday and today. 1st in a 45 for $154, 2nd in a 45 for $110, 3rd in a 45 for $77, and 4th in a 45 for $55. To cap it off, finished 3rd in a 180 for $235. 88 < 77. The 45s definitely help to deal with the variance.

nice job.

I am a part time donk but these turbos are my most profitable showing 230% having played 193 of them (according to sharkscope)
I started making money when i adjusted my stile early (first half hour) to being loose pre flop tight post flop, quite happy to loose a load of limp bets because people seem to throw chips at the pot later and its easy to double up several times. CB is pointless people call with any draw, a big bet on the river after it gets checked down works quite well.
I only play 2 at a time though cant cope with more but the info i get from the hand replay allows me to choose targets and that really makes the difference to the all in or fold play.

Hi Interesting topic. I'm also very much a part timer so don't have the numbers of you guys. But dug out my figures for these. FWIW, played 41 x $12 tournies with a 48% ROI (ITM ~20%) and then more recently moved up to the $36 tournies. Only played 21 of these but running hot at 189% ROI (ITM 25%).

I only play 1 or 2 of these at once so I take my time and try and pick out the donks. Early on I'll play semi-tight but willing to see flops in position if it's cheap, like the guy above. Lot's of poor players so just a case of waiting to make a decent hand since there's plenty willing to go bust with a second best or dominated hand.
Mid-tournament, I get aggressive quickly, usually around level 5 or 6. There's not enough time to wait for good hands that you can show down so aggressive play where you can take pots without showdowns is more important than in a regular tournament. If i get called so be it, as long villain has to make the difficult decision to call. Probably helps a lot that I only play 1 or 2 at a time so I can really pick my spots.

How do people rate the $36 tournies compared to the $12? I didn't notice too much diference, maybe a few less total donks but nothing else.

Game Prizes Profit ROI ABI AFS R/A ITM ITM
Hold'em NL $4,398 $2,099 91% $10 758 9% 27/222 12%

Thats mostly the stars turbos. If I had any BR dicipline or tilt control what so ever I'd probably be a decent player.